LongHaul

Training syllabus can be found here for a while

http://www.bacarrowhead.org/training.htm

LongHaul

GW,

      YES! It is very scary because the "no breath--jump on the chest" is what is being taught by many "First Aid-First Response" companies that work in industry. They feel the average factory worker or department store worker can not be trusted to locate a carotid pulse and the time spent looking for one is wasted. They also feel that the average person can not tell if you started shallow breathing on your own or not. What is being taught is if a person collapses go straight to chest compressions and call 911. There is even talk (among the professional ER personnel) that there will be a revision in the AED approach because to much time is being lost waiting for the unit to be retrieved from it's location, undressing the victim,applying the AED leads, and beginning the process. I think it is all a matter of education and the degree of seriousness that is maintained in that instruction. To many people and organizations want to "get credit" for being in the room during a class.

LongHaul

This is from the linked site, second paragraph; >>Record-keeping procedures: At least 50 percent of your troop must attend resident camp. On other campouts, at least 33 percent of your Scouts must be in attendance for each twenty-four-hour period to count as a camper day to qualify for the troop ribbons.<< LongHaul

I also heard of this about 5 years ago. The person I was talking to is an MD and workes in the emergency room. What he said was the "new thinking" was that most people don't really know how to do mouth to mouth anyway, they can't find the pulse, and should concentrate on the only thing they could probably do right which is to push on the chest. He also said that "they" (meaning some research group not his staff or hospital) did a servey and asked people what would be a reason that they would not do CPR on a person that colapses. The overwhelming answer was the mouth to mouth. My friend also said that the higher persentage of success with patience that did not receive mouth to mouth was due to the larger numbers of those type of cases.

I'd like to see some actual numbers before I change what I would do.

LongHaul

scouter08,

As ScoutNut said the CC can't stop you so keep your records! Speaking as a former CC and SM I can tell you there is a huge difference in effectivness of the committee depending on whether you have accurate records or not. I was fortunate to have a "real" secretary while I was CC. This wonderful woman took dictation professionally so we had word for word transcriptions of many of the discussions. We didn't realize just how valuable she was until her son left the troop and took mom with him.

LongHaul

Ok this is the "job discription" we have in our District Operations guide;

District Camping Chair

Works with the District Program Chair and the District Chairman.

Ensures that the promotion committee is familiar with Cub and Scout Outdoor programs provided by the Council or at our local camps.

Ensures that a sufficient promotion team is in place to visit every pack, troop and crew to invite them to camps and works with the Order of the Arrow Chapter during their visits.

Promotes and gives camping updates at Roundtable at least quarterly.

Attends council camping meetings to coordinate council and district efforts, and gathers feedback from units in the district regarding camp opportunities.

Helps get packs, troops and crews signed up for Outdoor programs.

Makes reports, as invited, to the District Committee.

Serves in this capacity as a chair for at least one year, with possible re-election if selected by the Nominating Committee, for up to a possible served 3 years.

LongHaul

Sorry GW everyone isn't as all knowing as you are. They may think that wearing a pair of shoes every day with all due confort will mean that after walking up and down, that is shifting from pressure on the heal to pressure on the toe, for 6 hours with 35# to 40# on your back will be just as easy. I was not "lucky" in my choice of shoes, I was "prepared". I knew 5 years in advance that I would be taking my sons to Philmont so I deliberaly set aside my Red Wings and began "testing" boots that fit my feet as work boots. Up and down back and forth all day long driving a truck loading and unloading. I found boots at KMart that were comfortable, they didn't stand up to my Red Wings for durability but then my Red Wings were not designed for trail hiking either. As for your "bad" experience where were you with your wisdom before the boys left home? You couldn't tell cheap from inexpensive? This is why I will not take a youth to Philmont that has not gone on a week long backpacking trip with the troop before hand. Picking up a pack on the first day is one thing, doing it again after three days is another and yet again after 8 days. Same with shoes, you don't know how they will feel "after" until you use them to get to "after".

 LongHaul

I have never even heard of an incident where a Scout/Scouter had a "problem" with a bear or mountain lion where the Scout/Scouter hadn't BROKEN the rules and cautions. You attract them and they will come, you do what your told and they will go else where. When I said GOOD boots I didn't mean expensive. My last 2 treks were as an adult and I wore $50 KMart work boots. I wore $3.99 for 3 pair mens nylon dress socks as liners and $3.99 for 3 pair polyester socks over them. This works just fine FOR ME. GOOD means what your feet like. You don't need major ankle support if you have normal ankles because your not usually going to be on broken ground. The trails are well used. You should not be carrying that "heavy"of a  pack where major ankle support is needed. What do your feet feel comfortable in? Walk 10 miles with about a 40# pack in those shoes and see how your feet feel. $200 hiking boots that make your feet hurt by sundown are not the answer. Choose your foot wear wisely, fit your pack to your body, and don't take all the "junk" you normally want on a camp out.

 LongHaul

You want horror stories all right. Philmont has animals that don't follow the rules. If your son is one of those that think nothing bad will happen so he can do what he wants, keep him home. Bears will "investigate" anything that smells different than normal. One of ours used foot powder and ended up in the hospital with a serious gash on his foot. Another crew were messy eaters and ended up with skunks coming to help them clean up. Other than following the rules he is given to only thing that may spoil his trip would be not being physically prepared. I've been there 4 times in various weather and even with the bear in the tent next to me I loved every minute of every trek. Do shake down hikes. Find some stairs and have your son walk up and down them with his pack. Find some GOOD boots and break them in. The rest should be fun.

 LongHaul

I thought I understood jblake47 perfectly. When Beavah wrote >>Or, on da other side, a 20-year-old Venturing "youth member" dating a 14-year-old Venturing "youth member" ain't OK, even though da BSA doesn't have any rules about it. Because in the world, that's a 20-year-old adult dating a juvenile under the age of consent, no matter what da BSA's membership categories are.<< No one baulked but jblake47 says the same thing in different words and there is confusion. BSA policy for Venturing has no restrictions for youth member inter relationships. Adult-Youth is forbidden but Youth -Youth...no mention. So as a parent you understand that the Venturing program is 14 to 20 age wise but when your 14 year old comes home and tells you she met this great guy on the campout that's 20 and in college. "We sorta hung out all day." You say "I'm glad your making new friends?"

 LongHaul

GW I'm curious and since no one else has asked, just what type of vehicle do you drive that weighs 5000# and gets 25mpg at 80mph no less?

LongHaul

Numbers, numbers, numbers what is the purpose of the OA? Is it to get boys to summer camp? Is it to act as a reward for popular boys that have enough camping? Is it a service organization that benefits the Scouting program? Summer camp dog and pony shows are great if that's what you think OA is about but if the "activity" of the Lodge disappears between summer camp sessions I think the benefit is lost.

 LongHaul

What you may personally think about Global Warming aside this can't hurt. We could probably have some fun discussing things to do for an hour in the dark.

crc, Just curious why you are worried about tax exempt status? Does your unit have a large unit account? Does it issue reciepts for donations so others can claim deductions? If it's for unit purchases I'd suggest asking you DE about using the Council tax exempt status. That's how the councils around me do it.

LongHaul

SSScouter, My only objection to what we used to call the "one pot wonder method" (wonder if this is worth it) is that you have to eat each course seperate. Another Variation commonly suggested by "high adventure" staffers is cook everything together as a glopp. I like to eat and believe it should be fun. If you like glopp or don't mind one course at a time great. I do favor scrapping the pot as well as possible and then boiling water for instant tea or the like because hydration is usually something that must be monitored, at least with my troop.

LongHaul

Stosh,

Being from Wisconsin I think youd understand the concept of keeping your food from freezing by putting them in a cooler with a few hand warmers. In the 60s we used rocks heated at the night camp fire or used a hard case for the eggs and kept them in our sleeping bag. Also at 0 degrees if you are using utensils you can heat in the fire, knife, spoon, fork, plate, cup, bowl, you must like eating cold food. Dutch ovens at 0 degrees require a good deal of fuel because the cast iron cools on the sides so fast. Hanging anything over an open fire in 0 degree weather again would require large amounts of fuel. We dont have large quantities of wood available on site at our camps and transporting wood has become restricted. Eating well does not mean cooking from scratch on site. Also, particularly when doing an Okpik type campout, cooking and cleaning are not why we camp. Good food available quickly and with minimal clean up leaves the day for the winter activities we planned. I dont recommend retort as a normal method but it has its places.

LongHaul

Your right Stosh but when it's 0 degrees outside cooking eggs in a paper bag is tough. The mess kit is out unless you dragged along a stove for each scout and the means to wash all the dirty dishes. Hard cooked eggs go over as well as caster oil in my troop but boiled in a baggie with veggies ( the only time I've seen the patrol run out of veggies) works very well on Sunday morning and the clean up is almost nothing. AS for Okpik the object is not to cook and clean but to still eat well so you make it at home and heat and eat on the campout.

LongHaul

Thanks CNYScouter that's what I needed. As an Okpik staffer I really push retort cooking and the use of Zip loc type bags. I will pass this info along to those in my district. As an aside why do we assume that because the S.C.Johnson Co. says that Zip Loc bags are not designed to withstand the heat of boiling that it means there is toxicity involved? My experience is that too many bags are put into the pot at a time and those making contact with the pot itself melt loosing their contents. My rational is if I can "steam" in this bag (212 degrees)then I can boil in them (212 degrees) just don't put them in contact with the pot itself which gets hotter. I have a large "spaghetti" pot that utilizes an inner basket and the bags have never burst or melted. We also have a double layer window screen insert that accomplishes the same thing except you can't just lift the heated bags out in the basket. My cautions are along the lines of what Eamonn raises, food temperature. Make sure the food is cooked, I advise every patrol to have an instant read thermometer in their patrol box for this type of cooking and to test each individually cooked portion. Food poisoning can defiantly spoil the outing.

LongHaul

Where on the Zip Loc site does it mention that it is not safe/recommended that you NOT put them in boiling water? I looked and can't find boiling mentioned at all.

LongHaul

I was speaking to our Chapter Advisor about this and he said that at NOAC they seperated those under 18 from those over 18. He told me that our Lodge has adopted the policy to follow the standard Boy Scout approach and sperate members at 18. Must be a local choice or event organizer choice.

LongHaul

Our Adults eat with the patrols and the scouts in charge of washing dishes wash the adult dishes also. The SPL does not assign duty assignments the PL does. While the boys are cooking and cleaning the adults do what they do most of the rest of the time which is stay out of the way. When asked for help or guidance an adult will do what he/she can but for the most part we ask that the adults leave the boys alone. Adults are there for safety, and discipline. Proper planning and preparation usually takes care of safety and supporting the decisions of the SPL and PLs addresses the discipline.

LongHaul

With the probability that an appeal is forth coming everyone can help by sending what they can to;

Blue Lake Township Legal Fund

1491 Owasippe Road

Twin Lake, MI 49457

This will help insure that the Township can fight the appeal.

For those with the optimist view on things you can support the OOECs effort to purchase the property; Make checks payable to the Owasippe Outdoor Education Center, earmark them for the Save Owasippe Fund and mail them to the OOEC at P.O. Box 212, Whitehall, MI 49461.

LongHaul

Sorry BW but I just don't follow your concepts. You seem to be picking things out of training courses and manuals at random. If the NSP does not have the Experienced Patrol to learn from where do they get the basic skills? A single troop guide or an adult (ASM for NSP)? If the Troop guides and Instructors are 16 as you say do they give up the "older boy program" to work with the NSP? I understand the ages and stages and the three tiered instruction but I think you are missing the Troop dynamic in your concept of outdoor program.

 LongHaul

So, making sure we are both using the same terminology, we have; New Scouts 10.5 to say 12 Experienced Scouts 12 to 16(?) and Older Scouts 16 to 18. Is that the break down BW? I'm just trying to visualize the outings and the "Troop" dynamic where most of the Troop separates itself from the New Scouts on outings yet the New Scouts have role model examples and knowledgeable scouts to learn from on a regular basis.

LongHaul

OK BW next question, if my New Scouts are by definition the 10.5 to 11 year olds which group do the Troop Guides and Instructors come from? How about the SPL adn ASPLs.

LongHaul