LongHaul

Just so I'm clear on this BW, your interpretation of the Troop Program Features is that the plan is to have three separate outings at the end of the four week preparation? That the Troop Meeting plan is formated with three levels of intending that there will be three separate outings as the goal?

 LongHaul

Gunny,

Not having met the older boy I say ask him what he wants, don't decide for him. He and his brother joined together and he may want to stay with his brother, this is new to him. My position is try to accomodate the older boy. If I were CM the younger would not receive his AOL until he met ALL the requirements PERIOD. Next if the Pack Committee and the CM are open to the idea of holding an AOL in August so the younger boy can graduate at 10 1/2 instead of completing his Webelos 2 program THEN and only then would I be open to awarding both AOLs at the same time that being in August.

For those who say the older boy would be hanging around for nothing I ask is pin aquisition and rank advancement all that Webelos is about? Just because I qualify for the AOL I can't continue to work on activity pins I may not have? I can't act as a denner? LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

Lisabob, What part of dibbus1987's original post made you think the older boy was ready to move on? All I see is that both boys joined at the same time and that the older is already 11 and the younger won't be 10 1/2 till August. There is no mention of maturity or readiness for crossover.

 LongHaul

BW,

 Look back at the Cub Scout Leaders book, the info is on page 21-12 in my edition and, it refers to JOINING requirements for Boy Scouts. It refers to when a boy CAN join Boy Scouts not when he MUST leave Cub Scouts. If a boy is double promoted and graduates 5th grade at 10 he does not HAVE to leave Cub Scouts. As for the Silver Beaver and Award of Merit there definitely are requirements that are "supposed" to be met but in actuality all that is necessary is that the nominating committee approve your application.

Ed for someone that repeatedly has said that whether one knows for a fact that a boy didn't do the requirements for a merit badge or not is irrelevant as long as the MBC signed off, how can you now say that anything other than the approval of the person delegated to give such approval makes a difference. Is it proper NO is it right NO will it negatively affect the boy in my opinion Yes but can it be done? Yes all the CM OR WDL has to do is make the award. If a CM or DL puts in an advancement reprort that lists advancment for a boy that never did the work it still gets credited why is this different?

LongHaul

I've had sleep apnea since I was 40. I shared a tent with a medical doctor on a training weekend and he alerted me to the condition. I asked my wife and she said I stop breathing for 30 seconds at a time then take a breath like I was coming up from under water and gasping for breath. My doctor says that it puts me at higher risk for stroke and heart attack but that it would not cause either on of these by itself. My sleep pattern is disrupted and as a result I am tired in the mornings and around 2 in the afternoon. I've never used medications or devices and have been on 2 Philmont treks one at 48 one at 52. The older I get the more I notice the effects of the sleep disruption. The med form from Philmont does not mention sleep apnea so unless your physician feels yours needs to be brought to the attention of the Philmont Med staff they would never know. What does this guys doctor say? If stopping the use of the CAPA for 14 days is a big deal this guy probably has other medical conditions that disqualify him.

LongHaul

Although a Webelos Scout reaching the age of 11 or completing fifth grade is eligible to become a Boy Scout, he may remain in the Pack for six months after his 11Th birthday or until he completes the fifth grade whichever is later. Page 7 of the Webelos Leader Guide bottom of page.

 BW can't seem to separate the Boy Scout joining requirement age from the mandatory separation from the Cub Scout program age, which is what is being discussed in this thread.

 >>Whether the Pack wants to award the AOL to someone that does not qualify for it is up to the Pack.

 No it isn't up to the Pack. You can't award something that hasn't been earned! <<

Sorry Ed but who or what is going to stop them? In Councils like mine where AOL does not get reported as advancement the is no checks and balance. This is an AWARD and it is up to the Pack to verify completion of the requirements. It's the same as Merit Badges, how many times have you said that the badge is considered earned if the MBC signs the card. If the MBC signs a card for a boy that didn't do the requirements the boy still gets the badge. Yes you can award something to someone that does not deserve it look at the Silver Beaver, Award of Merit, Academy Awards etc. Yes the Boy Scout application says 10 years old and have earned the AOL not 10 years old and have been awarded the AOL but as I've said if you start down the "he really didn't earn it" road you looking for trouble. Every Boy Scout rank past First Class uses the same terminology "earn".

LongHaul

OK next question is what is the effect of not using his CPAP for 14 days or so? He will be a little more tired than the rest of you in the morning and around 2 in the afternoon if he is like those I know that have the aliment and go untreated. He'll be a little more irritable than the rest of you. I still say go!

LongHaul

Groan yes but the louder the groan the more times it will be repeated.

LongHaul

As we all know the joining requirement says 10 years old and AOL so once the Pack awards the AOL, properly or not, the Troop is covered. Start saying "the boy didn't actually earn this" and you are looking for problems. As I've said before my son skipped grades and was "eligible" before he was "ready" to join the troop. dibbus1987 said these boys just joined the Scouting program so being bored with the program isn't probably a factor for the older boy. Immaturity and unpreparedness MAY be a factor for the younger boy. What is see most here is a fixation with age/grade NUMBERS and not youth members. What does the older boy want? The younger boy does not qualify for the AOL until August and without the AOL does not qualify for Boy Scouts until he graduates 5th grade. That much should not be in dispute. Whether the Pack wants to award the AOL to someone that does not qualify for it is up to the Pack. Will Scout Net reject the award? Well in my neck of the woods AOL does not go on an advancement report just as Activity pins do not go on an advancement report because they are not advancement.

LongHaul

OK, awarding the AOL to someone that does not qualify is wrong on many levels. Awarding the AOL to someone that does qualify but is over the age of 11 1/2 is perfectly fine. I had a 13 year old Webelos 2 that had been held back, remember the "which ever is later" clause from the Webelos Leader Handbook. The problem I see here is the parents wanting their sons to "get the AOL together". While there is NO "REQUIREMENT" as to when advancement be awarded, only recommendations, there are requirements for earning advancement and awards. AOL is technically an awarded not a part of Cub advancement. The younger will not qualify for the AOL Award until August. Presenting the Award to the older boy in August, so long as he earned it before graduating 5th grade is also fine. The time restriction is for earning the rank or award not for having it presented to you. The real problem I see here is the parents and their lack of understanding for the Scouting program. Will they seek to hold one son back while the other catches up in Boy Scouts also? Is this just an attempt to prevent having a son in different programs resulting in more driving? What you have not commented on is the desires of the older son. Does he want to crossover in April? Is he ready for Boy Scouts, in HIS opinion?

LongHaul

I still don't see the problem here folks. As long as the older boy is not asking to be allowed to earn advancement after graduating 5th grade. Cub Scouting is a family based program siblings attend Pack Meetings and often are present at Summer Time Pack activities. Again I ask what is the Pack doing in July and August that presents a problem? So the older boy is not a Cub and not a Boy Scout for 60 days are you telling me that you are going to stop his recognition ceremony? How is that in anyway a benefit to the Boy? It's about the youth. This family is not asking for that much here, they are not asking for a free bee nor alteration of advancement rules (as long as the younger isn't advanced early) I didn't see anyone screaming foul when Stosh posted that his Webelos 1 group had earned their AOL. No one brought up the age problem or grade problem. 20 pins in 12 months and Stosh implied that they were offered twice. Why now such a Draconian approach to an 11+, 5th grade graduate chumming around for 60 days till younger brother qualifies and they can have 1 ceremony instead of 2? What else is going on here?

LongHaul

Extra batteries!. On one trek I carried a video recorder, 8 hours worth of tape and three extended life batteries one of which I recharged at Fish camp. The only "problem" I can see is the Philmont Med Dept. Sleep apnea is not listed on the Med form as a disqualifier, many people have the condition and choose not to treat it and have no problem hiking. What is the persons size and weight? What kind of exsperience do they have and what is their physical condition beyond the sleep problem?

 LongHaul

Although a Webelos Scout reaching the age of 11 or completing fifth grade is eligible to become a Boy Scout, he may remain in the Pack for six months after his 11Th birthday or until he completes the fifth grade whichever is later. That's what the Webelos Leader Book says. So if the 11 year old graduates 5th grade in June, what is it that the Pack does in July and August that would present a problem with the 11 year old being there? The ceremony acknowledgeing crossing over from Cubs to Boy Scouts is a ceremony that's all. I've been to a lot of Eagle ceremonies where the Boy was 19 already. What the 11 year old can not do is earn advancement, that's all. LongHaul

The Feb/March cross over is intended to allow the New Scouts a chance to become acquainted with the workings of the Troop and for the Troop to become more familiar with the New Scouts. What I don't understand is why there is this belief that if a boy crosses in Feb he HAS to camp in March aka cold. If the boy stays in Webelos does he camp in March? There is more to Boy Scouts than camping. One of the biggest things is learning to Be Prepared. This is accomplished at the troop meeting BEFORE the New Scouts go camping. I hear people saying that the New Scouts will feel left out to which I answer Ages and Stages. The New Scout is no more prepared to do winter camping that he would be to attend Philmont as a New Scout unless he has been prepared for the outing. May crossover was the norm 15 years ago when the Webelos program was a 24 month program it is now a 20 month program so the New Scout has a chance to find his place in the troop and the Adult troop leaders have a chance to become acquainted with the New Scout. What I find most often is the Packs that resist February crossovers are the Packs that are not utilizing the Webelos program as a transition between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. The Webelos program is being run as a project making award getting process rather than a skill acquisition, accepting of responsibility experience.

LongHaul

       From as early as I can remember my father saying "Treat every woman as a Lady until she proves herself to be otherwise. Then treat her as a Lady because you are a gentleman." This served me well until the 80's but I still refused to change my values to show "respect" ? for others. I too had the unfortunate experience to be accused of sexism and worse for offering my seat to a member of the opposite gender. My most frustrating moment was being ridiculed for referring to two Woodbadge staff as "Ladies" being told that it was derogatory and implied that they were not as capable as the males. This was in the late 90's. While social focus changes I believe values should be more permanent.

LongHaul

What does the boy want? I had the exact opposite of Trailblazermom with my number 2 son. After transferring to a public school from a private school at the beginning of 2nd. grade he was imediately advanced to third grade. This made him a 3rd grade Wolf, a 4th grade Bear and after graduating 5th grade at 9 1/2 far to immature to be a Boy Scout. The disparity of intelligence and maturity almost prompted his mother and me to send him to a private school for High School but he would have missed out on almost all of his extra curricular activities. What is the boy's maturity level and where will he fit better? Many boys join Boy Scouts at 11, just because this boy took advantage of an available Cub Scout program should not exclude him from being a Boy Scout when he is ready.  In Trailblazermom's case it would seem the immaturity lies with the DL and not the boy.

LongHaul

Why must a Webelos Den meet during the summer for the boys to work on advancement? Family member, Traveler, and Fitness are done with a member of the boys family not the den leader. When the den begins to meet the den leader looks over the work the boy has done over the summer and either explains why the effort was not sufficient or accepts the work and awards the badge. The DL could make waves over the three month active requirement but it's not the boys fault the den had zero meetings but let's face it the boy had 100% attendance for the summer

As for the age at which a boy must leave cub scouts see the Webelos Leader Hand book; Plan B; for a fourth grade Webelos Den Starting in September. Look at the footer after the plan. Although a Webelos Scout reaching the age of 11 or completing fifth grade is eligible to become a Boy Scout, he may remain in the Pack for six months after his Th birthday or until he completes the fifth grade whichever is later.

LongHaul

Trailblazermom, I would suggest that your son work on Family Member, Traveler, & Fitness over the summer. Look over the requirements for Citizen and the Citizen Belt Loop.

Yes

 Old Course

 Give the Staff a 7 to many swelled heads. Tried to be funny instead of fun. Too much clowning not enough Camp School

Experience 10+++ We had over 60 participants. Spend three week ends with 60 other involved scouters and you have to be learning things almost hourly or your talking to much.

 LongHaul

Hunt,

Check the original copy of your roster that comes with the cards when you re-charter. That is the only place I've ever seen it. Our cards come with two copies of the roster but only one has ID numbers.

LongHaul

I did not know where to put this so I settled on Summer Camps because that is a common use for all these properties.

http://www.saveourscoutcamps.org/

If there are others let's get them included in the list.

LongHaul(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

The problem I find with the Webelos Program is that most Webelos Den Leaders are not delivering it effectively. The purpose of the Webelos Program is to transition the boy from Cub Scouts an adult leader run, meet indoors, all work on the same thing every meeting, artsy craftsy, let someone entertain me program to a boy planned, boy led, work at your pace, take responsibility for yourself Boy Scout program. Boys leave between Bear and Webelos because they are burnt out on Cub Scouts not Scouting.

Webelos Leaders need to be properly trained in April to begin the program in June and not September. As Bears the Webelos program should be explained to the boys (preferably by Den Chiefs) and to the Parents (preferably by a trained Webelos Leader with experience AND by an ASM familiar with the Pack). The difference between the Cub Scout programs in Tigers, Wolves and Bears and the Webelos program needs to be made clear. The first summer the boy should be ready to work on Traveler, Family Member, and Fitness these involve working with an adult family member and are easily done over the Summer break from school. The boys need to understand that they will be working independently when it come to advancement even though the Webelos Den will focus on certain activity pins over the 20 month program. Instead of trying to fit in all 20 pins a Webelos Leader should use the Pack/Den resource sheet to find parents suited to be activity pin counselors. For Citizen, Outdoorsman and Readyman, local Boy Scout Troops are great resources for these badges. In September of the Webelos I year Citizen should be the focus along with planning the activity badges that will be addressed. The boys should pick the badges that the den will focus on and depending on the number of times a den meets a month these may take more than one month to complete. The emphasis should be on skill acquisition and not pin acquisition. No group sign offs. Each boy meets with den leaders individually to have requirements reviewed and signed off. Just being there does not get you a pin. A suitable adult other than the den leader should be used as a pin counselor and as many of the pins as possible should be done some place other than the regular meeting place. The Webelos Den should begin camping ASAP as a den and then with as many different Troops as is feasible.

Webelos is not supposed to be another program centered on getting awards. Webelos is not supposed to teach a boy about camping skills he will need as a boy scout.

Webelos is not supposed to be junior Boy Scouts. Webelos is not supposed to be just an extension of Tiger, Wolf and Bear. Webelos was introduced as a transition program. Transition is the movement, passage, or change from one position, state, stage, subject, concept, etc., to another; change: the transition from adolescence to adulthood. Think about that change from adolescence to adulthood it did not happen over night. The Transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts via the Webelos program does not happen in the last few months, it is a 20 month process. The boys need to be given increasing levels of responsibility for their own advancement and for den participation and Pack Meeting participation.

LongHaul

Seems your tone has changed there Bob. The YP training says call the SE and let the SE handle the situation. Now you are saying call the SE and follow the SE's directions but those directions are not legal advise so that would mean we could choose not to follow the SE's directions and still be in compliance because we called the SE first. So recapping If you are a Scout leader and you witness or suspect that a crime has been committed on BSA property or in connection with a BSA event you call the proper authorities and report it...UNLESS that crime involves a youth member and is sexual in nature, resulted in physical harm to a youth member at the hands of another, or resulted in mental harm to a youth member at the hands of another then you would call the SE. That right so far? LongHaul

If we are going to listen to Cordelia let's remember that tape was made in 1993. Let's also pay close attention to Detective Mike Johnson when he talks about being protected civilly "when you report to the proper authorities". Neither Social worker Jim Chavis nor Detective Mike Johnson say anything about reporting to BSA. If you involve your SE you are not protected from libel or slander charges brought by the accused.

When you witness a crime (again find out the difference between criminal assault and criminal battery and child abuse) and you delay your contact with "the proper authorities" to seek LEGAL ADVISE from your SE you can be held liable for what happens in the interim. I don't see why the SE wouldn't be guilty of practicing law without a license seeing the BSA requires the SE's intervention in the legal procedure.

LongHaul

The local Scout Executive will then instruct you how to proceed.?????

 Bob White, while you seem quite good at reading BSA publications and retaining what the training tapes and on line courses contain you seem unable to read things that are not published by National. My post refereed to Legal interpretations not BSA interpretations. If a crime is committed on my front lawn I am not legally empowered to decide what course of action should be taken. The SE has no legal standing in the community. He or she is a citizen just like you and I.

Secondly before you continue to quote BSA scripture try actually reading the Federal Child Abuse Act and find out just what constitutes Child Abuse. Find out just who can commit child abuse as it relates to a specific child. I think you will find that most of the things you are referring to are actually criminal assault and criminal battery and not child abuse under the existing law. Again the SE has no legal standing an reporting a criminal matter to the SE does not guarantee you immunity under the law.

 LongHaul