Lisabob

Mostly our adults stay reasonably far away from the boys on a camp out. The PLs (not SPL, definitely not adults) decide who is responsible for cleaning, cooking, etc. although I'm not sure duty rosters are as well-utilized as they might be. The SPL will sometimes remind them that "lunch needs to be between X1 and X2 times because Y is happening after that." The adults do act as their own quasi-patrol (they cook, clean, and tent on their own) so they're busy doing their own thing at the same time as patrols are doing their thing. Adults, particularly the ASMs that serve as patrol advisors, do tend to keep an eye and ear out for what the boys are up to, but for the most part they do not intervene directly unless it is really necessary for safety issues, or unless asked by the PL or SPL.

We've done "open class" races like what you are describing Schiff. But that's in addition to the "official" race. Some reasons are beyond our control - for example, our district only allows the top 2 or 3 cars from each pack to enter the district race, so there has to be some way to know who those boys are. And one year we just about didn't have the race at all because the previous year, parents behaved so poorly that many adults just didn't want to go through it again. In the end we did hold the race but were a lot more clear about the rules, the expectations, and the PURPOSE of this activity. And it went like a dream that year as a result. While the "win at all costs" hoopla can definitely get way, way out of hand, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with recognizing winners (hey, that's real life for ya). But the degree to which "winning" is emphasized over other aspects of the race is something we can re-calibrate to reflect the fact that the entire endeavor really is about more than just winning. By the way - I'm not sure about others' experiences? But I think it would be inordinately difficult to build and race all in one day. And I do know that many boy/parent teams get almost as much of a kick out of planning and building their cars together in "secret" as they do out of racing them. This applies not only to "fast" cars, but also to painting, car design, etc.. I'd hate to forcibly remove that aspect, as long as (again) "winning" doesn't become the over-riding focus. And yeah - it is the parents, not the boys, who tend to behave badly when it comes to this stuff. Too bad.

No emb, I'm definitely not suggesting that. Call it idle curiosity (and we know that leads nowhere good). But in some of our other threads people have gotten into discussions about whether it is ok, or prohibited, for scouts & scouters to wear military or military-style clothing at scouting events. And that made me wonder how people would react to a couple of young men from our troop, who are registered ASMs now, and also on active duty. When they attend our scout functions (while on leave) they are almost always in military uniform. I'm proud of them and grateful for their service so don't get me wrong - just wondering "out loud" is all.

OK this is a little bit of a tangent on the various military/scouting uniform threads. About this business of not wearing military garb in a scouting environment...What do you make of a young man, Eagle scout who aged out within the last year or so, technically now an ASM but serving in the military, who visits the troop from time to time in military uniform (camos, not dress uniform)? I don't have a dog in this either way, I'm just curious to know how that would be perceived?

I'm with a troop where many of our leaders completed their basic ASM/SM training 8-10 or more years ago, and some of our council records show them as "untrained" as a result of this. I think if they were to be told they had to do the training all over again they'd have some fairly harsh comments for whoever informed them of this policy. (On the other hand, there's a good chance some folks might pick up some new pieces of info if they were to do it again and that's never bad.) Some would grumble and go again, but a bunch would probably dig in their heels and refuse. Then what??? How far will council be willing to go with this? Will they refuse to recharter a troop over this? Are they willing to drive off long-time, good, leaders over this? (I doubt it in the former and I hope not in the latter case) If not, where's the stick? We need to be mindful of people's contributions of time, money, and effort. Telling already-trained leaders that they have to do it over because the BSA has lousy record keeping is a way to tick off good volunteers.

Announce loud, clear, and in advance, that the biggest trophy this year will be for the "coolest design" or "best scout spirit" or something - anything - other than the "fastest car." Sure, give a trophy and recognize the winners, but make the bigger deal out of somebody else, and this behavior will be reduced.

Ah, Lake Erie in the winter. Even those of us who live in the snow belt and are used to driving in it, need to know when to say enough is enough and stick close to home. But, if you expect to get that much snow and you aren't comfortable driving a long distance, how about suggesting to your SPL that the troop do something local where you can still make fun/safe use of all that white stuff? How about doing a one-night camp at a local park (or even your CO's grounds) where the guys build quinzees? I haven't met a boy yet who didn't think that was about the coolest thing ever and 10-1 your younger scouts have never done it before.

LongHaul, you're correct that nothing in the initial post indicates the maturity level of the older boy in this particular situation. I suppose when I wrote my previous post I was thinking of "most boys" who are often chomping at the bit to move on by about this point in their Webelos II year. But it is certainly possible that the boy dibbus is talking about is not "most boys" and indeed as we've established, he doesn't HAVE to join boy scouts right this instant. My bad for assuming.

Thanks for clarification John. gwd - yes, it can certainly be tricky to take untrained parents along on camp outs. On the other hand, you may find they get a lot more excited seeing the outdoor program in action, than they do watching a weekly troop meeting. Not to mention, they might finish the weekend with greater respect for their boys and for the other (trained) adults! Still, the care and feeding of untrained parents is a dicey business.

They could (theoretically) set it up so that people have to have an access code in order to register online. That way the council contingent leaders would have control over who registers, if those leaders are the ones with the access codes. That's why I wondered. Our own council is apparently not real fast out of the gate with regard to these kinds of things. I could easily imagine a scenario where some people who pay attention to the online option would go ahead and register individually, and then council would go off and do their own thing without realizing that people were even registered online. Could be a big mess is what I'm thinking, if not coordinated well. And that seems to be the norm. I hope I'm wrong.

GNX Guy, who can do the registering? Does it need to be done by someone leading the council contingent, or can anybody register themselves online?

You won't hear me disagreeing with your first statement Ed! As for the second one - well it really depends on the boy, though in most cases I would agree with you. A couple of years ago we had two boys cross into the troop who were not ready for boy scouting. They lacked social skills and emotional maturity (one had a documented disability, the other I think was just a bit young for his age, shy, and a little sheltered). Both wanted to stay with cub scouts through the end of 5th grade and technically they could have. They came from packs with a mixed Webelos I/II den where the WDL was continuing on with the pack for another year. But instead they joined us in Feb. along with a bunch of other scouts. Both were unhappy, cried and whined a lot, didn't fit in well, and quit within 4 months. Maybe an extra few months as webelos would not have helped them. But it certainly couldn't have hurt them. Honestly they might have been better off visiting the troop on occasion for day events as webelos guests for a few more months, instead of being boy scouts and carrying all the responsibility which troop members bear. It was just too much for them at the time. Incidentally, both boys re-joined scouts with another troop about a year later and seem to be more capable of handling the demands of boy scouting now. But in the case that dibbus describes in his original post, yeah, this older boy is probably ready to move on.

John I am not sure what you mean exactly with the ref. to populating more than one unit. Clarification please?

Thank you LongHaul for posting the relevant snippet from the WDL book. I thought we'd just cleared up this same issue in another thread last week but perhaps not for everyone. Ed, reality in my neck of the woods is that we do report AOL but that it would be unheard of for council to verify or check it. Maybe some councils are more detail oriented for cub records but based on the stories people tell here, and experience with my own council, I wouldn't expect that to be the norm. Still, I'd hope a cub leader wouldn't give in to pressure to award a rank early that the boy hadn't yet earned, just to be a "convenience" to the boy's parents. Nobody ever said parenthood was about convenience, as far as I know, and I think such a request would stick in the craw of most scout leaders.

Do your Scout Parents really know....everything that is required for their sons to have a program? I'd say no. About half of our scouts have parents who are not registered leaders, plus a few who are registered but are seldom present for whatever reason. These parents by and large probably do not understand what goes into making a successful program. Is your committee fully staffed? Are they trained? We actually have a reasonable sized committee but some jobs are over-burdened. And there are a few smaller committee positions that seem to go unstaffed on a regular basis. As for training - maybe a third of the committee has completed the online troop committee challenge. Most of the rest seem utterly uninterested. And as our "live" district committee training has a (deservedly) bad rap, people aren't willing to attend. Our committee chair has not made committee training a priority either. Do you have enough Assistant Scoutmasters? Is there enough parental involvement for outings? Yes and No. In the three years my son has been in the troop they've never canceled or even come close to canceling and outing for want of adult leadership and at one point about two years ago we had almost as many registered ASMs+committee members as scouts. However, most of our ASMs, our SM, and our Committee Chair have boys who are close to aging out of the troop or already have done so. We have good parental involvement among our younger scouts' families, but there were a couple of years where the troop had a rough patch with recruiting and retention, with the result that now, there are older adult leaders who are looking to move on, and younger adult leaders who are new-ish to the troop, but not a lot of folks in the middle to bridge the gap. This is a little bit worrisome. If so, how did you get it to be that way? One reason we joined the troop was because they already had a solid group of adult leaders, as compared to another troop where when we visited, I got asked to be the committee chair out of the blue (yikes! I thought, what are we getting into here? At the time I didn't feel remotely qualified to take on that role). We're lucky to have a handful of adults who are committed not just to their own kids, but to the troop and the program. They've been instrumental in bringing along other newer leaders. If not, have you communicated your needs? Do you know what your needs are? Well we try. With 20 new scouts last month we'll be reminding all their parents that everybody here is a volunteer. Our committee chair tends to stress that boys whose parents are involved stick with scouting longer. A former SM hits on the notion that he can mentor and teach everybody else's kids, but he still needs some other adults to help do the same for his son. I tend to point out where there are small, specific, tasks that won't scare new parents off. But recruiting isn't my strongest skill and I don't especially like prevailing upon people. I'm much better at explaining how things work and hoping they find it sufficiently interesting or fun to want to get involved on their own power. Realistically, if we get about 1/2 of the families in each year's cohort to become actively involved as registered leaders, I think we'd be able to maintain things at the present level just fine. Hope this helps a bit Gunny.

Eamonn, You and your family will be in my thoughts. Let others worry about the district committee for a bit and don't take it on your shoulders if your friend's approach doesn't go smoothly all the time. To be honest, with a committee in the shape you describe, any approach is bound to have some big bumps in the road.

Please look on the unit money raising application (I think on the back). There is something on there about not using the uniform to appear as if the BSA endorses a given product, when in fact it does not. Uniforms should also not be used to appear to make BSA endorsements of any given political view or candidate.

I agree completely with Gunny on this one. What is going to happen when one of these boys gets elected PL and the other doesn't? Are the parents going to step in and demand equal treatment there too? What about if one finishes a MB and the other doesn't? What else will the parents ask to bend the rules on, for the sake of their convenience, even if it is an inconvenience for everybody else? We've had a couple of boys who are about 18 months, 1 grade in school, apart from each other. Their parents have been pushing the two of them to march in lock step together from the time they joined cub scouts. The two boys are extremely competitive and ultra-focused on getting ranks and who can be quickest but they seem to be missing the journey along the way and often don't seem to be enjoying themselves either. While I recognize that this is their prerogative as parents, I feel badly for both boys, who have different personalities, strengths, and interests. I believe it short changes not only the two boys, but also everybody else in their patrols (the dominant attitude seems to be, "forget the patrol needs, identities, or spirit, I cannot fall behind my brother") and everyone on the adult side who get worn out dealing with the aftermath (competition spills into aggression, corners are cut, parents try to do what the boys ought to be doing for themselves, etc.). Some families may do better in this kind of situation than what I'm describing but if it were entirely up to me I would tell parents a) not to hold the older boy back in order to wait on the younger boy and b) not to rush and force the younger boy to follow so closely in his brother's trail. The results of doing so are bad for both boys. Surely for just a couple of months they can either manage two separate meetings or else find someone to help car-pool to one or both of the meetings. And no way would I award the AOL prior to it being earned, and no way would I, (if I were SM), register a boy who had not yet met the joining requirements.

Thanks for the comments so far. I imagine that my general sense of being slightly overwhelmed with new scouts is showing in my original post. Let me try to tailor the discussion a little bit though, noting that I am a committee member and not the SM or an ASM. I can and certainly will pass along suggestions for the program-side of things to our SM, who is really good about listening to different ideas and then incorporating the ones he thinks will work in a specific situation. (In general: we do use NSPs with troop guides who roughly serve as PLs for the first few months. Our NSPs tend to become permanent patrols. We're also using the FY Emphasis program as our guide this year, much more explicitly so than has been the case in the past.) But personally, my focus will be on working with the new scouts' parents to help them understand what in the world is going on. With 20 new scouts, I am expecting a good bit more chaos than these parents were used to seeing at a cub scout meeting. And I know for many adults, chaos is a definite turn-off! What do you think they need to know and how can I help them gain a solid understanding of what we're about so that they'll be happy to weather some initial chaos?

Maybe call around to local troops and see whether they have a uniform exchange. Youth XL shirts (or men's smalls) would not be so uncommon there. You can get a list of local troops and their contact info from your council office, if you don't currently have that info. Good luck to you!

I don't know what BALOO was originally intended to do. I do know that it is now marketed toward registered leaders, though four or five years ago our pack also had some non-leader parents attend to increase our pool of BALOO-trained individuals. Reality seems to be that people who aren't willing or able to be leaders are unlikely to attend BSA trainings in most cases though. As to whether it is useful to someone leading a trip to an aircraft carrier, well that's debatable (our council would require it, others may not, but the original poster's council apparently does). I certainly don't see much use in requiring it and then marketing it toward non-leaders who in all likelihood are not the ones planning a trip or outing anyway.

Bob is certainly right that it is easy to suppose that however things are done locally is how they are done everywhere. As an example, every pack in my district (except the LDS packs) does their cross-over ceremony in February or early March. I had thought this was the case throughout the council, but it turns out the district just south of us has much more variety, with cross-overs taking place anywhere from January to May, depending on the pack. However, there has been a push from council to get more packs on board with a Feb/March crossover timeline. And no packs (again, excepting the LDS packs, which are both few and small in our area) do cross overs in the summer or fall around here. District and council training, themes for RT discussion, and many other matters are predicated on having the overwhelming majority of units operating on the same general calendar. So there's what is, and there's what can be. Packs and troops can certainly go in different directions as Bob mentions. It might even be a better idea to do that. However, if the vast majority of units in one area all choose the same schedule, and if council is pushing for more conformity in the matter, it can be difficult or even counter-productive to go off in a different direction. It might be easier in a situation where a pack and troop have a strong and fairly happy "feeder" relationship, to do things differently. However, for troops that recruit from a bunch of packs, this may be more of a challenge. Bob - back when cross-over was based on birthdates, were there explicit exceptions for boys who were considerably out of phase in terms of age/grade?

We are awash in new scouts these days! This year our troop picked up 20 brand new boy scouts from 4 different packs during the month of February, taking us from about 40 boys split evenly between those over 14 and those under 14, up to about 60 with about 1/2 in 5th and 6th grade. Egads. Yes this is very exciting and we're thrilled that so many scouts chose our troop. I can see some real challenges though. The troop hasn't had this many new scouts all at once in more than 5 years (probably longer, maybe never). At the last troop meeting there were squirrely (err, I mean, high energy) new scouts everywhere. They aren't acculturated yet and our SPL seemed a little uncertain how to maintain a semblance of order. Skill was...interesting. Among the group of new scouts we have incredible adult resources including 3 webelos den leaders, 2 cubmasters, 3 committee chairs, several parents who were scouts, a couple of Eagle scouts. All four of the packs our new scouts come from are highly organized and effective, which is wonderful, except I have a strong sense many of the parents are going to be taken aback by the messier nature of a boy scout troop. Please, share your thoughts on how to help the new scouts get acclimated, how to help our youth leadership get a handle on working with so many young guys at once, and how to help the new scouts' parents come to appreciate the beauty of "controlled chaos??" We're reeling from our recruiting successes here!

What an interesting thread, though discussion seems to have veered considerably wide of Its Me's original question. Crossing boys over in Feb/March...well on the good side you've got those few months of camping and troop meetings before shipping a kid off to summer camp, as has been mentioned by others. I remember as well that by the time Feb rolled around, our Webelos II guys were so very "done" with cub scouts and itching for something more involved to keep them excited about scouting. Waiting any longer would have been painful and we'd likely have lost some of them. Also on the good side, most school districts seem to have moved to a middle school structure where 6th grade is the first year of middle school, rather than the last year of elementary school. Joining a troop late in 5th grade means a boy will probably get to know some other middle school boys through the troop, which might make for an easier transition (I know this is the case in our troop, which also meets at one of the town's middle schools. I've heard anxious 5th graders being reassured by slightly older boys on several occasions - very sweet, really.) Crossing them over later leads to other issues, not least of which is that a lot of webelos II leaders are conditioned to expect to be "done" at that point and the prospect of another 3-5 months of webelos might drive them off screaming. So perhaps we could go back to making webelos a one-year program instead and cross boys into a troop in Aug/Sept. of their 5th grade year. That would resolve the somewhat nonsensical business about crossing over in mid-winter and mid-school year, without drawing out the over-stretched W II program even further. Of course it raises other issues. At the age of 10-11, 6 months is a long time. For a 10 year old, 6 months is 1/20th of his entire life to date. Looking at it from a maturity and emotional readiness standpoint, I would expect there would be more boys unready for boy scouting in the fall of their 5th grade year, than toward the end of 5th grade. And since many troop leaders already struggle to incorporate rising 6th graders into the troop, adding early 5th graders to the mix would be tricky. There is also the summer loss issue. My experience with scouting is that a lot of units (packs in particular) lose boys over the summer months. The other major time we see a large loss of boys is at cross-over when parents are re-evaluating their and their children's commitments. Couple the two (summer/early fall crossover) and you might see a spike in the number of drop outs. At least now (here's the cynical membership perspective) if a boy crosses in Feb/March and then drops out over the summer after 5th grade, he's still "on the books" for a full year more than if we did crossovers in early fall at the start of 5th grade and he dropped in the summer prior to 5th grade. Actually the more I think about this, the more I like the older notion of linking cross-overs to a boy's birthday (you turn 11 and you become a boy scout). That would have the added benefit of solving the problem of troops struggling under the burden of a whole bunch of brand new scouts in the middle of the program year. But then, what did they used to do with boys who turned 11 over the summer when their pack wasn't active? Or what did they do with boys who were far off the norm in terms of age/grade (either being held back, perhaps more than once, or else skipping grades)?

Scott, can you explain how the boys could possibly get credit BOTH for a webelos activity to count toward AOL (visit a troop/outdoor activity) AND for two boy scout merit badges? My understanding is that either they are still webelos and therefore cannot earn boy scout MBs, or they are boy scouts and therefore cannot continue working toward a cub scout award (AOL) but that they/you cannot have it both ways. Or perhaps I misunderstood your last sentence.