Laurie

One thing I should add: this unit had written rules.

Eamonn, I'd say it's a pleasure to share this post, but it is one of the things that frustrated to me to no end. The reason this particular conversation stuck with me from so long ago is that it really did seem easy to help this boy.

I'll second Unc; what a shame things have worked out this way. Let us know how the PWD goes, ok?

Any recommendations for a sturdy leather boot with a sole that wears well? Most of my hiking is done on rocky trails and/or by creeks. I tend to slip in sneakers on these same trails, and I've also worn the tread off sneakers with only a few miles, so the boots are important. Due to a back injury, I need ankle support, as hiking aggravates my back, but I refuse to quit. Also, funds are really tight, so my hope is to get a decent price. The pair I'm replacing cost $50 on sale (they are no longer made), which is a lot for us, but I'm willing to spend that amount again. I'm not asking for much though, huh Timberland has done well for one of my boys and for my 3-year-old, but they feel very heavy and awkward to me, so I've been able to rule them out. I haven't tried any others yet, but would greatly appreciate ideas on other brands.

I see it too, and it is sad that those extra expectations are placed on boys. Not to mention wrong. That is why sharing that BSA literature is so important, but even still, some will ignore it. The number of excuses and justifications for changing the program is amazing to me! Here is part of a conversation, one of the easier ones by the way, that I had in trying to understand how a unit used BSA resources to meet a youth need:

After a committee meeting where the struggle the new SPL was having was discussed, I had a discussion on the way to our cars with the SM:

Me: "I was wondering if SPL would be interested in the upcoming Junior Leader Training?"

SM: "We don't do that, and that wouldn't help him anyway."

Me: "Oh, so then does the troop provide this training for him?"

SM: "We give them the opportunity, and it comes together."

Me: "Ok, but would the resources be helpful? Perhaps his frustration would be lessened if he met with other youth to get the training. He could find that there are common frustrations and learn how to work through them, and he'd also learn new ways to approach his role."

SM, now laughing: "You are way too idealistic and don't get it. You think this stuff is easy, but it isn't. We know what the boys really need."

Me: "But this boy is, by your admission, frustrated. He has not held prior leadership roles. What I see is a need for him to have the tools to do his job rather than lose him to his continuing frustration. If the training isn't possible, I have copies of the SPL and PL handbooks. Perhaps he could borrow these?"

SM: "Those books don't help. You think they do, but he won't read them anyway. You are too focused on being by the book."

Me: "But what options does he have? I get that you think I don't have a clue, but I still see a frustrated boy with a role to carry out who is not equipped to do it, and I have not heard of any help being given to him."

Laughing and shaking his head, he went one way and I another. I was not surprised but was saddened to hear that this boy had stopped coming to troop meetings. Since he was so welcoming to my son, and my son really looked up to him, it wasn't unusual for me to ask how my son how he was. One night, after a meeting, when I asked, my son said, "He wasn't there again, and I think he quit. Can you blame him? He was the SPL, but no one listened and no one helped. I'd have quit too." I truly believe that the outcome would have been different had this boy had a chance to use the BSA materials and training. The loss of even one youth due to frustration is too high a price to me to avoid following the program.

Hunt, while I was CM, I gave copies of policy pages (specific to upcoming events: outdoor guidelines for camping, for instance) to the DLs and incorporated them into the permission slip/information sheets. When I became aware of some confused thinking on advancement, I worked something relating to advancement right into the pack meeting. However, another unit does its best to keep that info from parents so that it can do as it sees fit. Therefore, I've kind of come to the conclusion that those units that want to be by the book and follow the program as BSA intended for it to go will keep the leadership informed as well as the families. Those that have their own way don't pass on the info and sometimes even try to ignore it. OGE, I think I like the idea of accredited troops -- packs too.

Great tune! Slightly off topic, but OGE, thanks for this link--it's been added to our scouting favorites.

What happened here is, not one of your remembered your training. In situations of this magnitude and sensitivity we, as leaders cannot advise or analyze the situation with the professionalism required. Unless you are a paid professional with extensive training, and I do not know if any of you are, you are not qualified to pass judgment on the boy, the situation, or me.

So why did you pose the question here? You don't say that you're qualified, and you don't appear to be. You have pointed out that others are not qualified to judge, yet you have passed judgement on the Eagle board of review, the posters who have responded, the BSA in general, the boy, and his family. I haven't seen where you or the boy have been judged, though there have been attempts to get more info from you as what you posted was not consistent or specific enough to provide help to you. Quite frankly, it doesn't seem that you are truly seeking help, but rather just looking for a way to judge others here. Should this situation be true and there be a young man involved in what you call the dark arts, then my hope is that someone qualified to help him will. If you knew the SE could help, it's too bad you didn't just call him/her, for now, if Marge is your real name, it would be a real shame for this young man to come across this post and learn how he and his family have been discussed.

Oh Eamonn, isn't it wonderful, even with yucky Rory-coated dead things?! Speaking of spring smells, my son came in the house smelling of manure--yuck. He said it was from gardening, and I suspect he may, like Rory, have rolled in it! I find the birds move too fast or perch too far off to have a chance to identify most, but it is sure fun to try. Until you get yourself a field guide, you can look up birds and other wildlife on-line at enature.com. It sounds like you have witnessed new colors and sounds as well--enjoy!

Thank you. It was published the very next day, and the DE was forwarding it to others at council, happy to see good news. I felt privileged to be given the opportunity to share my views on Scouting in a paper that is known for being very selective in what it prints.

Yes, I believe you can do that. The following is from the Cub Scout Leader Handbook, 2001 edition, page 18-3, under the heading "How Fast Should A Boy Advance?":

Generally speaking, a boy should advance one rank per year. The important thing is to see that earns the rank for his grade (or age). If necessary, allow the boy an extra month or two to earn the badge.

Is the family involved?  I know that many boys would not advance without den leaders' help, but right above the pace of advancement two things are noted:

Advancement always emphasizes doing, not getting.  The experience the boy has as he works on the requirements is more important than the badge itself.

And...

The advancement program, when implemented correctly, will...Bring a boy and his family closer through the advancement activities that family members enjoy together.

I wonder if you would have the opportunity to encourage the parents to become more involved?  This was something that I worked hard at as CM, and most parents responded and became more involved to some degree, but there were those who never did a thing but had sons who wanted so badly to earn those badges.  Hope the above helps.

I'm really impressed with the understanding of the boys shown in these responses. I'm learning a lot in this thread. I'd also be happy if either of our sons chose to be part of your units--if that were possible

The thought that came to my mind immediately: is there something in the troop or in a relationship in the troop that isn't quite right? When our son asked to visit a different troop, we supported that because we were simply glad he wanted to be in Scouts. We knew he was not happy, but we also knew we weren't getting the full story. After he transferred, we learned a lot, and we are very proud of his choice. He has shown good judgement. Both my husband and I were registered, and my husband went on most trips and to most meetings, but we did not see some of the things taking place that our son was dealing with. So, in a nutshell, is something "off"? I hope not, but it's worth finding out from him if this might be the case. Tread lightly though; it can be uncomfortable.

Oops, forgot one! This site is great for SO many Webelos activity pins:

http://www.creighton.edu/~bsteph/pack114/funpages/index.html#webelos

When our first son went through Webelos, he had joined late, and the den leader asked me to work with him. I was clueless on many items, and this site was my favorite, making many things so much easier to understand and fun as well. Geologist is included--the scavenger hunt was great fun and enlightening to me as well as our son

I put together a list of links to help our den leaders, and here are those relating to geology. The boys loved the sandwich, which I did with them, but that was before I discovered the fudge Have fun!

BBC Education Links on Geology/Rocks

The Rock Cycle Experiments is a set of 10 kid-friendly fun experiments.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/rocks/rockcycle.shtml

Making A Sedimentary Sandwich is a fun way to create rocks that can be eaten! Hands-on, kid- friendly, simple to do.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/rocks/sandwich.shtml

Chocs Like Rocks is a set of chocolate experiments! Yummmmm!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/rocks/chocolate.shtml

The Geology of the Bathroom is a fun write-up of how we can't escape geology--not even in the bathroom!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/rocks/bathroom.shtml

Other Links for Geology/Rocks/Minerals

Mineral Information Institute (MII)

Fantastic site providing free visuals, information, projects, and more. Teacher packets are in PDF format and may be downloaded at no cost (think "Akela" when reading "Teacher"). They cover natural resources: where they come from how we use them--food, clothing, shelter, fuel, minerals, and far too much more to list here.

http://www.mii.org/

Rock Hounds!

Discover how rocks are formed! Great site for learning about the formation of and types of igneous, sedimentary, and metamorphic rocks. Full color diagrams, kid friend definitions.

http://www.fi.edu/fellows/payton/rocks/create/index.html

RocksForKids.com

Categories include "How Rocks & Minerals Are Formed", "Identifying Rocks & Minerals", "Uses of Rocks & Minerals", "Lists of Rocks & Minerals", "Quarries", "Fossils", "Natural Disasters", "Arts & Crafts", "Collecting Rocks & Minerals", and more.

http://www.rocksforkids.com/index.html

I second the marbles and tops, definitely the right time frame, but hard to do with 50. Yo-yos were introduced either a little earlier or later, but close to 1930, so maybe something to do with that. Miniature golf was a big hit in 1930; maybe a game of that indoors would work -- improvised of course, but depending upon space, doable with some creativity.

(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Over 150,000 of our local paper (one county) is sold daily, and that's just the county. The city papers have a higher circulation. Therefore, it's not easy to get something printed. The key is often a brief item, better still a photo with one or two lines. Check with your council to see if they have info on how to get in the paper. Our council distributes info on press releases and how to draft them along with providing addresses of all local and city papers. Perhaps yours will have something similar.

The sad thing is that Scouters aren't always nice to one another and don't always live out the Scout Oath and Law. We sure don't have to agree on everything, but name calling and rude behavior is just not befitting of a Scout or Scouter. I'd like to pull up a log to that fire if I may.

As for parents coming here. Before I was a leader, I asked questions of the leaders. They didn't have answers *or* the answers were conflicting. Great people, but not able to give me the info I wanted. So I did a search on-line. I ended up here, though I think I lurked until I became a leader.

The thought that has gone through my mind this past week, particularly in respect to many threads here, is that sometimes we take something that is relatively simple and fun and turn it into something rather complicated.

Unc, I hope it was a good week, and enjoy your new hat

I was never much of a hat person, but I had a bandana that I loved. I wore it to day camp, to overnighters, pretty much any place I went to hike or spend time outdoors.

Interesting you should bring this up now, as I'm the market for a good hat. I just took a hike and brought home wonderful photos of a butterfly, a chickadee (I think--have to check that out), and many wildflowers. As I was putting the photos on the computer, I learned I brought home a black legged female deer tick--ugh!! Time for a hat...or maybe a new bandana. I miss mine; good memories were attached to it.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

Here's what I'd possibly do. Very soon you'll be at the end of the year. Have a fun year-end blow-out. A pizza party or a picnic would be great. Ask everyone to come, including both parents. While the kids are having fun, say a few words to the parents. Make it very positive, thank them for participating with scouts this year and talk about some of the fun things ahead for them as Wolves, Bears and even Webelos.

Then, and this is the good part, tell them that you are planning on continuing to lead, but are always looking for ideas and help, and that you are willing to share the leadership burden. These kids are great, but it's a big job for one person. Make this offer very genuine and positive.

Oh, I like that approach. Way better than a letter. I have done this type of thing when in the workforce and when serving on boards. The CM was, IMO, way out of line. As a former CM, I believed that my role was to support the DLs in order to allow them to do the best they could for the boys, and to also work alongside them to plan the monthly pack meetings/events. Please keep us posted. This is a tough situation, and you're already hurt--rightfully so, and you may face a bit more of that before the year wraps up. Serving carries a risk, and the type of person you think may be the problem won't change just because she gets her way. She'll simply aim her complaints at someone else. Hmmm...maybe even at the CM. Can you talk to your CC about this? Maybe get some perspective from that person? Keep it positive, but ask if there's something you could improve on or something that you may missing. Again, I'm real sorry--this is a tough place to be.

That had to hurt. I'm sorry you're in this situation, especially since you're not even sure what the situation is.

The CM said some a couple of parents said you're not running the program like last year. Did he say who the parents were? Are they parents of boys in the den? How would they know what last year was like?

Don't write a letter to the parents, though perhaps one to the CM asking for specifics of the complaints with a copy to the CC might be helpful. There is so little time left, and this sounds like it came out of the blue. I think the BEST thing to do is to find out who the parents are, then to speak with them directly.

Neither one, Bob.

I posted this awhile back in response to a heated thread in issues. I had submitted it to the local paper, but hadn't heard back (twice). I spoke with our District Commissioner recently, and he asked me to try again. Yesterday the paper called; the following is getting printed sometime within the next two weeks:

Today my husband and I saw our sons off to school just as we do every day. We pray for their safety throughout the day after seeing that they have eaten well, and then we great them at the end of the day, glad to see them (until the homework battles begin, but life would be so dull without that!). One of their greatest responsibilities is school work as they are still rather young. We encourage this, applaud their efforts and praise their accomplishments, and challenge them to keep doing even better still. Scouting encourages academics, even enhances them by bringing much of what is learned in the classroom to life in ways too numerous to mention. When our sons head out to school, or even when visiting friends or exploring the wood and creek on our property, we know there is always the potential for them to meet someone who intends harm to them, youth or adult. We know they may meet up with those who use and sell drugs or those who carry/use weapons illegally. We teach them at home to look out for themselves, to protect each other, to be on the alert while still having fun, learning new things, and making friends. Scouting encourages independence while teaching how to use it properly, teaches values that guide boys as they grow into men how to make good solid choices in a world full of challenges, teaches them how to prepare for greater challenges ahead. Our children each have different personalities, characteristics, and strengths. We teach them to use to them to the best of their ability. We teach them and sometimes even push them to try new things that they aren't too keen on, that they aren't sure they can do, but they know they can "fail safely" at home. Scouting does this: provides many opportunities for young boys and young men to excel in what they do well and do learn to overcome weakness/more challenging areas. We teach our children what we believe about God, and we want them to have a firm foundation on which to base decisions, goals, values, their very lives. Scouting promotes religious beliefs; in fact, without a religious belief one can't be part of Scouting--it's that important. We take our sons to the polls with us when we vote, talk about current issues, keep the lines of communication open to address all issues, and we teach them to respect all authority (though not to blindly accept it), and we take part with them or support them in striking out on their own for service to the community. Scouting does this too. Scouting provides a safe haven for boys to learn skills and values that will stay them their entire lives. It does help shape who they are, what kind of men they will be. It is one part of their lives though. My hope is that it is a significant part which provides a positive influence on their lives while at the same time being a safe place. For many boys, this is the only time they will feel safe or will find support. Not all have family supporting them, and though Scouting does not and cannot take the place of the family (it promotes family, does not replace it), it often fills a void that many boys and young men have as they grow--that of regular daily support in a safe and loving environment. This is not an easy world. Our youth are criticized for not doing enough to contribute to society, for just hanging out on street corners, and on it goes. Scouting provides them an opportunity to do more, to set goals--high goals, and then to reach them. In Scouting, the adult leadership understands the challenges boys and young men face, and the adult leadership commits to helping them to make it. Make it to what? To being boys and young men trained in character, citizenship, and fitness. The BSA does not do this alone, but the BSA does care enough about the boys it serves to know not to underestimate what these boys and young men can do and what they can become. For the boys and young men who might read this, we (I am one of many) do believe in you and will continue to support you, for we know what a tough road you have ahead of you, and we want to see you succeed...and regardless of rank to also see you soar as though on the wings of an eagle!

You know that you don't have to understand the beliefs a boy holds, right? It sounds that way, and though this started out with a parent not allowing a son to talk about his religion/duty to God, the end result is that the parents agreed and the boy was able to tell how he does his duty to God. If this were me, I'd let it go now. The family now understands that this is part of Scouting, and they are supporting their son. Enjoy the ceremony when all of your boys earn their Webelos badge! Congrats to you and to them

I agree, though I'm not sure I'm neutral on much of anything A thank you from me to the moderators for doing what can be a thankless job.(This message has been edited by Laurie)

My ultimate goal was to try and get the scout to an interview so I had a reason to advance him. After a discussion with mom and dad last night, my interview with the boy is this Sunday.

Excellent news.