Kudu

scoutldr writes: Studying B-P's original writings is interesting...I like to do it, too. Why on earth would you study B-P's original writings if you did not believe that you could gain some practical insight into your own program? But that's not the program we are charged with delivering. That sentence has no real meaning, scoutldr, does it? My point is that Baden-Powell's Game of Scouting does not require that Scouts have their "Spirit" examined by subjective adults, and that a close reading of the "Scout Spirit" requirements of "the program we are charged with delivering" does not require adults who emulate Baden-Powell's faith in human nature and the transformative power of Scouting to do so either. See: http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/spirit/directions.htm Kudu

Just to view this situation from a different perspective, Scouting was invented by a guy named Baden-Powell and his version of Scouting is a GAME! Baden-Powell didn't require any adult-judgement "Scoutmaster Conferences" for advancement. Baden-Powell didn't require any adult-judgement "Boards of Review" for advancement. Baden-Powell didn't require any adult-judgement "Scout Spirit" requirements for advancement. Baden-Powell didn't even use the term "advancement." He called it "progressive training in Scoutcraft." Scoutcraft. You know, camping stuff. Baden-Powell had 30 years to fine-tune the game he invented, and he believed that a Scout earns these progressive "Awards" by demonstrating his mastery of Scoutcraft. Oh, and that is "Awards," not "Ranks." In Baden-Powell's version of Scouting a boy or man's "rank" is his leadership position and Baden-Powell did not require leadership positions for "advancement." Baden-Powell did not even have Aims called "Character" and "Fitness." In B-P's model of Scouting, Character and Fitness are the broad methods through which Citizenship (the single aim of Scouting) is achieved. Since Eagle is the culmination of the Scouting experience, has he reached any of the Aims of Scouting? Physical Fitness, Character Development and Participating Citizenship. Has he engaged all of the Methods of Scouting? Just was suggestin' you chat with your CO and find out if they thought that this young man and his "get Eagle" approach met their goals and aims; their view of character and citizenship. Yeah these are valid tests alright, but not of the Scout. Anyone who paid attention when they last staffed BSA basic training can tell you that the BSA's so-called "Three Aims of Scouting" are the adult guide by which we apply the adult "Eight Methods of Scouting." Therefore, like the purpose of a BOR to which we pay lip service (an evaluation of the program, not the Scout), a Scout's character, fitness, and citizenship are an indication of how well the adults in his Troop applied the BSA's Methods of Scouting to the CO's program. Judge not lest ye be judged. If the adult leaders have failed at these indirect means along the way then this Scout's "Spirit" is a reflection on them, not the Scout, and should be the inspiration for self-examination on the part of the adults. Indeed, some of the ideas expressed in this thread are downright creepy, and I can't see how such Scouters have the moral standing from which to present themselves to this Scout as an example of the Spirit of Scouting. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" The BSA does not even specify that the Scout's Spirit must be measured by we flawed adults. Those who judge this Scout (a bright but shy 15 year-old that has met every objective requirement--except his project for Eagle--including a leadership position) harshly because he has played by the rules but considers himself now done with the game of Scouting should take a page from Baden-Powell's Second Class requirement in which the Scoutmaster meets with the Scout to make sure he understands the meaning of Scout Law rather than trying to judge how well the Scout applies this understanding in his daily life. As Venividi suggests: Sounds like you will be wanting to have additional conversations about what you expect to see with respect to scout spirit; and give him the opportunity to describe how he has demonstrated the rest of the points of the scout law. For example, how does he see how he shows loyalty to his troop and patrol.... Perhaps he was very loyal to his patrol when he was active.... Perhaps there are other groups/organizations to whom he is showing loyalty now. To this end consider using the "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt" which provides a vehicle by which the Scout can put his reflections on his behavior into writing and judge for himself how well he lives the Scout Law in his daily life. See: http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/spirit/index.htm Kudu

108 Scout winter camping activities can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/activities/index.htm Traditonal winter Scouting games by Baden-Powell, Dan Beard, etc. (including Beard's extensive treatise on "Snowball Warfare") can be found at http://inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/activities/games/index.htm An overview of winter camping for Scouts can be found at: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/index.htm Kudu

Jeffrey H writes: Measuring the worth of a boy goes way beyond his ability to tie a double half-hitch or go on a 20-mile hike. Those of us who advocate Traditional Scouting do not measure the worth of a boy on his ability to go on a 20-mile hike, but (in a discussion of what a Scouting program started by Baden-Powell looks like) his ability to go on a 20-mile hike most certainly is a valid measure of his mastery of Scoutcraft and therefore a valid measure of the worth of the Scoutcraft program in which he is involved. I think its wonderful that the BSA offers alternative requirements for Scouts with physical disabilities (i.e., wheelchair bound) to attain the rank of Eagle. Why do they do this? Because they recognize that every boy is of extreme worth and should be recognized for his personal accomplishments. So because every boy is of "extreme worth" he must be recognized as an Eagle Scout for his personal accomplishments, with the requirements adjusted according to his abilities? One of the key concepts that Baden-Powell "borrowed" from Ernest Seton's Birch Bark Indians is that Scoutcraft Awards (mistakenly called "ranks" in the BSA) are based on meeting standards rather than on competition. I don't see why everybody has to be an Eagle Scout (at the expense of rugged Scoutcraft standards) any more than why everybody has to be a leader (at the expense of the Patrol Method and outdoor skills). If I understand the logic correctly: 1) The Outdoor Method (Scoutcraft) is only one of the Methods of Scouting. 2) The BSA offers alternative requirements for Scouts with physical disabilities. 3) Nobody would dare to suggest that the "worth" or "character" of a disabled Eagle Scout is any less than an "abled" Eagle Scouts. 4) Therefore Scoutcraft standards (such as Baden-Powell's required 15, 20, and 50 mile Expeditions) don't really matter because the "worth" of every boy is the same. I think Baden-Powell would agree. Ive read enough of his writings and quotes to understand that he highly valued a boys character development. If not, why in the world would he have developed the Scout Law and Oath? And just where in his writings and quotes does he reveal that Scoutcraft standards must be lowered for the sake of character development or because of the Scout Law and Oath? :-) If BP started it all today, there would still be a great emphasis on character development. If Baden-Powell started a Scouting Movement in 2006, he would not dumb down his outdoor advancement requirements in the name of character development. Nor would he dumb down Wood Badge, removing the outdoor skills in the name of leadership development. Nor would he force the most gifted leader in a Patrol to step aside because everybody else needs to be a leader regardless of their abilities. Nor would he give up the Patrol System at summer camp so that everyone can eat at a central dining hall in the name of efficient Merit Badge factories. In the former British Empire, the achievement standards of Baden-Powell's program were maintained until more than a quarter century after his death. In the 1960s it was decided in most WOSM associations that his program had to be watered down so as to maintain a market share of the youth culture that was perceived as uninterested in either the challenging outdoor aspects of Scouting or the values that meeting these challenges represented. If Baden-Powell started a Scouting Movement in 2006, these WOSM Scouting associations would already be in place. Perhaps he might address the niche market that takes seriously the task that Congress laid out for the BSA in Section 3 of the BSA's National Charter which says that one of the purposes of the corporation shall be to train boys in "Scoutcraft...using the methods that are now [June 15, 1916] in common use by Boy Scouts" Kudu

Perhaps B-P's model no longer works in today's society. All it takes is one single gifted Patrol Leader with a lot of charisma, a natural ability to lead, and a love of camping (which is really what advancement is all about). After a while, another Patrol Leader will begin to imitate him and if the Scoutmaster helps here and there without getting in the way, he will see that B-P's model is based not on the specific nature of "society," but on the universal nature of boys :-) Kudu

acco40 writes: I use the BSA method, the one I promised to deliver. The only promise I remember giving is "The Promise of Scouting" found on page 1 of the BSA Boy Scout Handbook. That said, what is the goal of the BSA? Ugh, I really hope you are not going to say that the goal of the BSA is "leadership"! No, not to pay the professional's salary (but sometimes I wonder). And sometimes I wonder why "leadership" in Scouting is defined by the professionals' corporate leadership courses rather than William Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training course! One of the aims is to teach our youngsters leadership. Gawd, I really, really hope leadership has not yet been promoted to one of the "Aims." The Patrol Method suffered enough as a result of leadership's promotion to "equal" Method status. The primary goal is to teach leadership and the secondary goal is that patrols will run smoothly. I must have missed the memo, but I haven't taken any indoor theory courses since the yellow blouse toy scissors and school paste incident :-/ If the worlds best PL resides in the Badger patrol, does it really teach the other Scouts how to be leaders if this person remains PL for six years? The solution is obvious, acco! Convince the SPL to appoint 26 Librarians. That way each one gets to be the One Minute Manager of his own letter of the alphabet (which, after all, is the primary goal of Scouting), and the Badger Patrol gets the world's best Patrol Leader for six years if they want. Kudu The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method! Roland Phillips

I always corner the very best leader in the Troop and ask him to serve as Patrol Leader for the new Scouts that I myself recruit once a year at the local school. Since he will be hanging out with little kids at Troop meetings and campouts, I usually suggest that he pick a buddy to be his Assistant Patrol Leader. This year this Patrol Leader decided to ignore my advice and picked one of the new Scouts instead as his APL. The Troop Guide is a buddy of his and camps with that Patrol and hangs out during the meetings. The PL's best friend just turned 18 so I will put him in some kind of Assistant Scoutmaster role related to that Patrol. If these older Scouts still long for more older company we can always throw an Instructor into the mix. New Scouts that are recruited by the Scouts themselves usually join the Patrol of the recruiting Scout. This usually includes younger brothers and the younger brother's best friends. I don't see the problem of sibling rivalry that others experience. When a Patrol Leader in the older established Patrols starts missing campouts for some reason, I usually talk to him and the other natural leaders in the Patrol about what they consider to be the important characteristics of being a Patrol Leader. I usually learn that they have gone ahead and had a Patrol election when someone asks me for a Patrol Leader's patch. As far as SPL goes, the Scouts have my little speeches memorized. One of them is that the most important leader in a Scout Troop is the Patrol Leader. Another is that the SPL only has one vote in the PLC so he is a tie-breaker, not the Patrol Leaders' boss. As a result our SPLs tend to emerge from the dark shadows of puberty. Overnight a kid's voice drops, he gets taller, he gains 20 pounds of muscle, and his becomes the dominate voice yelling "FALL IN!!!!" If he is not a Patrol Leader then when the SPL leaves for a more important job (like Patrol Leader of the new Scouts), or for college, or for some reason can't attend all the time, it is usually obvious to everyone who the new SPL is. If anyone else is interested in the position, then we have an election but a SPL election has nothing to do with the Patrol Leaders. When the SPL is not there, the Patrol Leaders pick someone to coordinate the meeting or the campout. Kudu

I wrote: "Why should a Patrol have an election unless they are not satisfied with the Patrol Leader's performance?" SR540Beaver wrote: In all seriousness, elected positions usually have some sort of term limit rather than a lifetime appointment. My point was that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The pressure to have six month terms to conform to six month leadership advancement requirements is based in part on the idea that we use positions of responsibility to teach boys who are not the best leaders how to become better leaders, rather than teaching the best natural leaders how to be Patrol Leaders. Likewise your assertion that Patrol Leaders should have "term limits" is based on the assumption that Patrol leadership should be secondary to lessons about how democracy works. But at least for the sake of looking at Scouting with "fresh eyes," we should remember that the BSA way of doing things is only one possible approach to Scouting. In Baden-Powell's model of Scouting, the Patrol Leaders are appointed by the Scoutmaster. This is the method in the military and in private industry where (at least in theory) the most qualified leader is appointed rather than elected in a popularity contest by his fellow-soldiers or fellow-workers. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages. In the United States we can not really debate this from our experiences in Scouting because Americans do not have the freedom to choose which model of Scouting works best for them. The government decides that for us. Kudu

For those with an interest in Baden-Powell and William Hillcourt's methods to view Scouting from a different perspective.: SR540Beaver writes: We've had boys who get elected multiple times to PL or SPL and there are other lads in waiting who start to get upset that they can't serve in those positions. Most of them see it from an advancement perspective more than anything else. Prior to 1972 BSA Scouting was organized by the "Methods of Scouting" developed by William Hillcourt, the man from Denmark who brought the Patrol System to America in the late 1920s. In this traditional BSA model of Scouting, "Boy Leadership" is a subset of the "Patrol Method" and not a "separate" Method of Scouting. Specific leadership advancement requirements were not added until this 1972 move away from Hillcourt's traditional Methods. It is the pressure of these advancement requirements that causes this "upset" and the tendency of adults and Scouts to "see it from an advancement perspective more than anything else." A symptom of this is "Troop-wide" six month election cycles. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and the cost of this relatively new Method is that when all of the Scouts who want to be Patrol Leaders (so that they can fill the position of responsibility requirements) are not equally gifted leaders, then the Patrol Method becomes secondary to the so-called "Leadership Development" Method because the priority is on the Scouts' advancement needs. Stable leadership for the Patrols is only a secondary consideration, if it is considered at all. Why should a Patrol have an election unless they are not satisfied with the Patrol Leader's performance? Six month "Troop elections" are by definition the "Troop Method." OldGreyEagle writes: When I said "Penalize" I meant since the Troop elected the SPL for the term of office, why would you take the youth voted by the youth to be their leader and replace him with someone selected by the PLC? Seems like a short circuiting of the Democratic process. In William Hillcourt's model of BSA Scouting, the SPL is in fact "someone selected by the PLC." In this Patrol-based model of Scouting, the elected Patrol Leaders run the Troop and they select the SPL that they believe will best coordinate their efforts. In Baden-Powell's model of Scouting the SPL is appointed by the Scoutmaster and he not does not hold any power over the Patrol Leaders either. Personally, when I recruit six-graders from the local school once a year I always ask the very best leader in the Troop to serve as their Patrol Leader for at least a year. He has his choice of an age-peer to serve as his Assistant Patrol Leader (since he will be camping with little kids). The Troop Guide is also closely associated with this Patrol (if not technically a member) so although this is a Patrol of new Scouts, it is also mixed by age and experience. gshafer writes: If an SPL becomes an Eagle Scout, he is then move to the position of JASM and the ASPL becomes SPL for the remander of the time until the next election. So in short my answer is 1) earning Eagle should not effect a Scout's leadership position; 2) the ASPL (appointed by the SPL) should never have authority over elected Patrol Leaders; 3) all things being equal, the most talented leaders should serve as Patrol Leaders, not JASMs or ASPLs. Kudu

BrentAllen writes: It appears you like hurling personal insults, just not receiving them, eh? Yes! This is new for me but I can see why you enjoy it so much :-) BrentAllen writes: Pick up any BSA Scout book with a glossary and look up the definition of Scouter. I will make it easy for you: Scouter: a registered adult member of the BSA. Brent is right and I was wrong! It is hard to get a copy of the official Bylaws so I can't confirm if this reflects an official decision of the BSA to further blur the distinction between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, or if this was written by the same BSA authors who misquote Baden-Powell. Hillcourt quotes the official BSA Bylaws as follows: Definition of "Scouters" and "Cubbers" Section 1, Clause 2--"Scouters is the collective designation for all registered Scout Officials and Adult Members (Active and Associate) other than Boy Scouts, classified as Council (Local and National) Scouters and Troop Scouters. "Cubbers" is the collective designation for registered Pack Committeemen, Cubmasters and Assistant Cubmasters. Even this definition would include Committee Members, so I stand corrected. What I should have written is that people who are not the outdoor type should not be Scoutmasters or Assistant Scoutmasters, or the trainers of Scoutmasters or Assistant Scoutmasters. BrentAllen writes: If I understand you correctly, my Tigers, who were camping with the Pack this weekend in 38 F weather - in tents - are tougher campers than your Eagle Scouts? Well, to borrow another line from you - "I don't know what you are doing in [your part of the country], but just don't call it Scouting!" Not my Eagle Scouts, but we seem to agree on that. How about that? For once BrentAllen and I agree on everything :-) Kudu

BrentAllen writes: Do you actually know any of these "hothouse" Eagles, or is this just empty rhetoric? Yes I do Brent, and thank you for asking! When I first volunteered as an adult leader in the BSA, the Scoutmaster of the Troop was a cotton-wearing hothouse Eagle. Soon after I joined he got angry when the Scouts voted to attend the Council's annual "Klondike Campout." He vetoed their plans saying that sleeping in tents in the snow was not real Scouting. He also expressed similar anger when one of the Patrol Leaders said that his Patrol wanted the Troop to go backpacking. He preferred to rent cabins in non-BSA camps because they had central heating (the thermostat prevents the cabin from getting chilly during the night), microwave ovens, and cable TV. At a Court of Honor a week before a winter campout in one of these cabins, a mommy in the audience expressed concern over my suggestion that Scouts could fulfill the Tenderfoot requirement "Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch" if they pitched the tents Saturday during the day and waited until bedtime to remove their warm sleeping bags, mats, and extra blankets from the centrally-heated cabin. He replied that as long as he was Scoutmaster, no Scout would ever sleep in a tent when the temperature was less than 50 degrees. This mommy had called all of the other mommies in the Troop because of her concern over my "reckless" idea of sleeping in a tent in the winter, and you could literally hear the tension in the room break into relieved titters of appreciation. It is hard to convey the pride and joy that these parents always expressed in having found a "commonsense Eagle Scout" to be Scoutmaster of their sons' Troop. More recently, one of my Assistant Scoutmasters, an Eagle Scout who never participates in our winter camping or canoe trips, came up with the idea of having his son's Patrol pack a bagged lunch in empty backpacks and take a day hike to satisfy the Camping Merit Badge optional backpacking requirement. As he pointed out to the Merit Badge Counselor, the requirement merely states "Backpack for at least four miles." Nowhere does it actually specify that the backpacks have anything in them! He was really angry when I pointed out to the Counselor that their day hike had been less than a mile. This tension only increased when I caught him trying to correct this error by talking the Counselor into letting Scouts wearing empty backpacks walk around the block during weekly Troop meetings until they finally reached the four mile specification that I was being so "difficult" about. I was able to shame the Counselor into rejecting this idea but in the end he got his way by scheduling a "Patrol campout" for his son's Patrol on the same weekend as a Troop campout (so that I wouldn't attend). Afterward he notified the Counselor that the Scouts had fulfilled the requirement by walking with backpacks in circles around the perimeter of his suburban woodlot until they had walked a total of four miles. Since then I have refused to sign blue cards for Camping Merit Badge unless the Scout has already been on a simple four mile weekend backpacking trip with me. I also encountered a local hothouse Eagle Scout District Executive when a mommy Charter Representative decided to dumb down the Scout Troop that a friend of mine had established. And over the years I have encountered a number of additional hothouse Eagle Scout Scoutmaster participants while staffing Council outdoor training courses. They all seem to share a disdain for winter camping, backpacking, and canoeing, and are very quick to point out that they are Eagle Scouts and the BSA does not require these skills to be an Eagle Scout. The problem, as I see it, is that the BSA has neutered Eagle Scout by removing so many of Baden-Powell's "Scoutcraft" requirements, including the Expeditions that B-P required at every stage in advancement. In a free country this would not be a problem, but our government has established religion with a monopoly on Scouting so that Americans are forced to define "Scouting" as whatever the BSA says it is. Certainly this fits the needs of mommies and daddies who feel that "Eagle Scout" is an important addition to their son's personal business resume but that outdoor skills are not relevant to the tough competitive business climate of the 21st century. Baden-Powell called this kind of thing "Parlour Scouting" and Americans should be free to establish alternative Scouting associations that retain Baden-Powell's Scouting program. I wrote: "2) Women (and men) who are not the outdoors type should not be Scouters or the trainers of Scouters." BrentAllen replied: So... there is no place for the non-"outdoors type" in Scouting?? Not even for a Treasurer or Secretary or Committee Chair or Committee member? Wow! Glad I don't live in your world! We have non-"outdoors types" who want to participate, and have great business skills to serve as the above. Let them learn these "business skills" elsewhere, not in Wood Badge. Perhaps what we have here is a failure to communicate because you wrote: For example, see your reference to women Cub Scout leaders (who are Scouters, BTW)... Around here (and in England) the word "Scouter" means Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters only. Cub Scout leaders are referred to as "Cubbers." Treasurers, Secretaries, Committee Chairs, Committee members, and Cub Scout leaders therefore by definition are not "Scouters." I wrote "4) The only reason that my views about women in Scouting are controversial is that the BSA discriminates against girls." BrentAllen replied, Actually, you couldn't be further from the truth. The reason your views are controversial is because they are sexist, chauvinistic and outdated. BrentAllen, the reason that your views are so stupid is because they are just plain stupid. Personal insults do nothing to establish that an idea actually is sexist, chauvinistic, "outdated," or (in your case) stupid. In addition, personal insults do nothing to explain why what you label as sexist, chauvinistic, "outdated" or (in your case) stupid ideas don't actually work. Now let me be perfectly clear before anyone accuses me of being against stupid people and spins a "Stupid Scoutmasters: Here We Go Again" thread :-) By definition the average IQ is 100. I happen to believe that Wood Badge should not be dumbed down to meet the needs of people with an IQ of 100 any more than Baden-Powell's outdoor skills should be neutered from the Scout Section outdoor course Baden-Powell called Wood Badge so as to meet the "One Minute Manager" needs of hothouse Eagles and people wearing yellow blouses. Kudu

kraut-60 writes: I am considering having a demo using the new "switchbacks" uniform pants versus blue jeans/cotton pants by taking a pair of each and immersing them in water and wringing them out at the start of the presentation, and comparing which pair of pants will be drier at the end of the presentation by offering participants the chance to compare and draw their own conclusion. As soon as possible before the presentation, suspend another pair of Switchbacks over a bucket of water with the bottom inch of both pant legs immersed in the water, with another pair of jeans suspended over its own bucket of water with the bottom inch of both pant legs immersed in the water. At the end of the presentation, a participant measures with a yardstick how far up the pant legs the water has traveled. In front of a fan, have each participant put one bare arm in contact with the inside of the wet cotton leg with the other bare arm in contact with the inside of the wet Switchback leg and decide which arm is more comfortable. In theory a third demonstration is possible: in front of a fan a thermometer in contact with wet jeans will show a lower temperature than a thermometer in contact with wet nylon. I haven't verified that myself. Kudu

Gonzo writes: You said: "Women (and men) who are not the outdoors type should not be Scouters or the trainers of Scouters." I disagree. What about women who are great administrators? Couldn't they be Unit Commissioners? How about District Committee? Gonzo, my female Assistant Scoutmaster is a Unit Commissioner and one of my Committee Members is the District Commissioner. My impression is that because they are the outdoor type they have a better vision of how a Troop should work and thus make better Commissioners, but since I have no experience with being a Unit Commissioner or a District Committee member, I limited my comment to Scouters and the trainers of Scouters. I do have a great horror story about a non-outdoor type female "administrator" (a Charter Representative) that I hope to contribute to your "Female Scout Leaders-Here we Go Again" thread. In the meantime I have cut & pasted a summary of my comments on the subject of women in Scouting there so that this thread can get back to Baden-Powell. Kudu

Let me cut & paste a summary of my comments from the other thread so that people can reply here instead: I believe that: 1) The outdoor nature of BSA Wood Badge has been neutered to accommodate the leaders of a Cub Scout program from which the BSA has likewise removed most of the outdoor requirements, and for which transparent yellow blouses and scissors & paste are perfectly good symbols. Removing many of the outdoor advancement requirements to facilitate hothouse Eagles who have never been backpacking or on an overnight canoe trip was probably done to maintain member and adult volunteer numbers at a level necessary to support BSA professional salaries and retirement benefits. Baden-Powell believed that Scouting should be all-volunteer and if he started such an alternative Scouting program in 2006 he would not take the same Parlour Scouting approach. 2) Women (and men) who are not the outdoors type should not be Scouters or the trainers of Scouters. 3) My Assistant Scoutmaster, the only female to have ever completed my Council's three part advanced Okpik course, is more the outdoors type than the overwhelming majority of northern men who never attend (or merely complete) the basic prerequisite Cold Weather Training course, and for whom the BSA's equally ill-conceived dress designer Oscar de la Renta uniform pants are the perfect symbol :-) 4) The only reason that my views about women in Scouting are controversial is that the BSA discriminates against girls. Some post-feminist writers such as Michael Gurian (featured in Scouter.Com's Scouter Magazine) write that what 21st century boys need most is an environment in which boys can learn how to be men from men. One possible alternative to the BSA's policies of discrimination is that of the Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA) in which every sponsoring organization sets up two separate Troops: A Troop for boys run by men, and a Troop for girls run by women. As to what extent the two Troops (and their adult leadership) are integrated depends on the goals and human resources of each individual sponsoring organization. Kudu

OldGreyEagle writes: I invite Kudu to post his opinions of the BSA and Wood Badge and the role of women in scouting in these forums and we will see how he is treated by those moderators. OK OGE, I accept your challenge but I double dog dare you to first call someone in those forums arrogant, condescending, chauvinistic, pompous, and egotistical. I stand by what I actually said: 1) The outdoor nature of BSA Wood Badge has been neutered to accommodate the leaders of a Cub Scout program in which the BSA has likewise removed most of the outdoor requirements, and for which transparent yellow blouses and scissors & paste are perfectly good symbols. Please note that I'm not saying that the dumbing down of the BSA outdoor Cub Scout and Boy Scout requirements is necessarily a bad thing :-) It was probably necessary to maintain member and adult volunteer numbers at a level necessary to support BSA professional salaries and retirement benefits. What I said was that if Baden-Powell started an all-volunteer Scouting program in 2006 he would not take the same Parlour Scouting approach. 2) Women (and men) who are not the outdoors type should not be Scouters or the trainers of Scouters. 3) My Assistant Scoutmaster, the only female to have ever completed my Council's three part advanced Okpik course, is more the outdoors type than the overwhelming majority of men who never attend or only complete the basic prerequisite Cold Weather Training course, and for whom the BSA's equally ill-conceived dress designer uniform pants are the perfect symbol :-) 4) The only reason that my views are controversial is that the BSA discriminates against girls. Some post-feminist writers such as Michael Gurian (featured in Scouter.Com's Scouter Magazine) write that what 21st century boys need most is an environment in which boys can learn how to be men from men. One possible alternative to the BSA's policies of discrimination is that of the Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA) in which every sponsoring organization sets up two separate Troops: A Troop for boys run by men, and a Troop for girls run by women. As to what extent the two Troops (and their adult leadership) are integrated depends on the goals and human resources of each individual sponsoring organization. Kudu

BrentAllen writes: To borrow a line from you... "Your Politically Correct righteous indignation is just too funny for words :-/" That was my concise description of your previous personal attack against me: "Wow! That is about the most arrogant, condescending, chauvinistic remark I have seen on this site" Funny - that is how I felt about your derogatory, sexist comment about "yellow blouses." Have you seen any of them go crying to the moderators? I am talking about a class of people: scissors & paste women in an indoor Cub Scout program for whom outdoor Boy Scout training is being dumbed down to accommodate. The indoor transparent yellow blouses represent a Cub Scout program from which Baden-Powell's outdoor emphasis has been gutted by the BSA in much the same way that the dress designer Oscar de la Renta indoor Boy Scout Uniform represents a Boy Scout program from which Baden-Powell's rugged outdoor elements (such as an Expedition at every stage of advancement) has been gutted by the BSA. I believe that leaders of such an indoor Cub Scout program should be excluded from outdoor Boy Scout training in the same way that you believe that atheists and homosexuals (and presumably girls) should be excluded from the BSA. All such abstract issues are fair game. The difference is that when you single out individuals and call them arrogant, condescending, chauvinistic, pompous, and egotistical, the level of the discussion drops to what we have here now. Scouter.Com moderators should understand this distinction. Kudu

BrentAllen writes: Down here, this is a Kudu - http://www.mindspring.com/~iballen/BKudu.JPG - not some pompous Scouter on an ego trip. A threatening photograph of a dead Kudu, and the usual BrentAllen personal insults. The Scouter.Com moderators should be ashamed of themselves! Turning a blind eye to this kind of unScoutlike behavior invites replies in kind and the subsequent level of discourse found on rec.scouting.issues. Kudu

OldGreyEagle writes: One of the reasons, as I understand it, that Wood Badge was changed (neutered tends to be inflammatory, but that's your call) was because of the distinctly "cliqueish" quality that grew up around it. You know what they say, OGE, "It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious!" I don't see how turning outdoor Wood Badge into a hothouse indoor theory course attracts a better kind of Scouter. Wood Badge was changed because numbers of adequate trainers for the Cub Scout Wood Badge was dwindling and there was a real need to provide training beyond the introduction courses to non-scoutmastering types so Wood Badge for the 21rst Century was devised. Well if that is true then it is the very definition of "dumbing down." The number of Cub Scouts is much higher than the number of Boy Scouts, if their parents don't go to training in significant numbers why should the Boy Scout program be brought down to their level? I'm not familiar with the BSA Cub program, but perhaps part of the problem is that the BSA has gutted the Cub outdoor program in the same way that they removed Expeditions from every stage of the core Boy Scout advancement program. If Baden-Powell started an alternative Cub program in 2006, he would require a minimum 14 nights of camping (usually in cabins), 12 day hikes, and 6 night hikes. How does this compare with the BSA Cub program? I would love to see a more advanced outdoor skills class, but I wonder if such classes could be staffed nationally by volunteers and not because of the wimplification of the BSA, more like the wimplification of Western society. One of the problems with living under a Scouting monopoly is that without the benefit of a free marketplace, people tend to believe that BSA Wood Badge is the result of some kind of inevitable march of "progress" from "20th century" outdoor skills to "21st century" indoor skills. I was the course director of my Council's Introduction to Outdoor Skills course for the first three years it was offered and I never had a problem finding high adventure staff. On the other hand, when the Scouts in our Troop go through phases of voting against high adventure camping in favor of parking lot campouts, those non-parent adult volunteers who are into backpacking, canoeing, etc. tend to leave to join Venturing Crews. There could be any number of reasons why people who work in an office all day long are more comfortable attending or staffing an indoor "leadership" course. Perhaps Western society is more "wimpy" as you say, but on the other hand in the same culture there is a corresponding rise in wilderness adventure. Perhaps this market would not support BSA professional salaries and retirement benefits, but Baden-Powell believed that Scouting should be an all-volunteer movement. Again, all I am saying is that if B-P started an alternative to the BSA in 2006, he might go for a niche market of youth interested in his own Traditional Scouting "extreme" outdoor program rather than compete with the BSA for a market share of the "Parlour Scouting" youth culture. Kudu

You can find seven articles on making and using hiking staves at The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/b-p/staff.htm Kudu

OldGreyEagle writes: So, maybe a week long outdoor skills course is needed, Yes, and we could award those who complete the course a special badge made from one wooden bead and a strip of leather :-) what would you suggest as core skills? The skills that you and red feather list are all consistent with Baden-Powell's version of a week long "practical" (one bead) Wood Badge course. Because the biggest difference between BSA Scouting and B-P's version of Scouting is the required "Expeditions" or "Journeys" at every step of advancement, I would also include canoeing and modern backpacking skills (such as fitting a backpack). A week is probably just enough time for adult leaders to get a brief introduction to all of these skills so that they know what they don't know about each subject. Of course the most important thing that a Scouter should take away from Wood Badge is the experience of learning these outdoor skills while working in a Patrol in the great outdoors. A Scouter's primary job should be teaching Patrol Leaders how to be Patrol Leaders. mtm25653 writes: We also learned a lot about leadership. Isn't that one of the things we are trying to develop in our scouts? I think the BSA sold its soul in 1972 when it removed "Leadership" from its traditional place as a subset of the Patrol Method, and turned it into one of the "Seven Methods of Scouting." This included new leadership requirements for advancement and the dismemberment of Patrol Leader Training (in which the Scoutmaster teaches Patrol Leaders how to run Patrol Meetings by holding actual Patrol Leader Patrol Meetings. The Scoutmaster teaches Patrol Leaders how to conduct Patrol Hikes by helping them organize an actual Patrol Leader Training Patrol Hike. The Scoutmaster teaches Patrol Leaders how to organize Patrol Campouts by having the Patrol Leaders organize an actual Patrol Leader Training Patrol Campout). In 1972 the BSA decided that these specific skills were not important and replaced them with so-called "Leadership Skills" so that everybody can be a leader, in much the same way that the BSA neutered Boy Scout specific Wood Badge to make room for Cub Scout leaders. I'm just saying that if Baden-Powell started an alternative Scouting program in 2006, it might teach Patrol Leaders how to be Patrol Leaders. If your son the Troop Guide wants to attend then fine, but what he is going to learn is how to run a Patrol. * to learn to be men from good men (I can't teach them to be men) I'm glad you brought that up. Some post-feminist writers such as Michael Gurian write that what 21st century boys need most is an environment in which boys can learn how to be men from men. One approach is that of the Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA) in which every sponsoring organization sets up two separate Troops: A Troop for boys run by men, and a Troop for girls run by women. As to what extent the two Troops (and their adult leadership) are integrated depends on the goals and human resources of each individual sponsoring organization. Beavah writes: Forget Kims Game, da problem solving and memorization in World of Warcraft is the standard. I agree, but the advantage of Kim's Game is that it does not require any high-tech toys to play. No matter what you do in life, from special forces to corporate bean counter, the ability to focus the human mind is necessary for success. The theory of Kim's Game is that if you deliberately practice this ability to focus the mind, you can develop the ability to observe your environment and recall details later. Perhaps the 2006 equivalent to Kim's Game is popping a Ritalin :-) Kudu

BrentAllen writes: So, Mr. Chauvinist, wouldn't "Train the Trainer" be considered "behind the scenes?" Um, no. I'm a strict segregationist in that regard. Subject pre-Webelos Cub Scouts to mommies with scissors and paste if you must, but keep that stuff out of Boy Scout training. Would serving on the Troop Committee be considered "behind the scenes?" Yes. Have all your male ASM's completed all three Okpik courses, No, few men get past basic Cold Weather Training. Mostly because they like to look like the Marlboro Man with blue jeans and flannel shirts. or do you only require the women to do so, in order to prove their worth? Require? As usual, you missed the point entirely Or do you think all the women in Scouting should be in the kitchen, making cookies for when the men return home from a campout? I don't have anything against cookies or those who bake them, but women who are not the outdoors type should not be leading Boy Scouts, and certainly not training their trainers. Welcome to the 21st Century, where women serve in the military Baden-Powell liked strong outdoors women, in fact he married one. Maybe you should suggest that to National, No, National is consistent. You can earn Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a backpack, and you can earn the Wood Badge by taking the same indoor course that many people get at work. All I am saying is that if Baden-Powell was to start a Scouting program in 2006, it just might be a rugged back to B-P basics alternative to the BSA including his original required wilderness Journeys at every stage of advancement, rather than electronic gizmos and Yellow Blouses with scissors and paste. Give me a break... Your Politically Correct righteous indignation is just too funny for words :-/ One final question, Kudu...do you look down your rugged, outdoors nose and picture us in yellow blouses.... BrentAllen, what you do behind closed doors in Dunwoody GA is none of my business, just don't call it Scouting! Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)

msnowman writes: Brent - I saw the comment you mentioned and share your view. To specifically target "Cub Scout Yellow Shirts" is extremely sexist as its only female Cub Scout Leaders can wear the yellow blouse. It is not "sexist," Michelle, because I am also against men who wear yellow blouses! For me the final straw came during the period when the BSA was neutering Wood Badge so that it was less Boy Scout specific. I attended a National version of the new "Train the Trainer" course, and at one point a gaggle of Yellow Blouses divided us into Patrol-sized groups (they were careful not to call them Patrols). They then handed out colored construction paper, school paste, and those little toy scissors with the rounded ends. I forget the point of the exercise, but I do remember feeling sick to my stomach. I have a female Assistant Scoutmaster. She is the only woman to have ever finished our Council's intensive three-weekend advanced Okpik course. From rock climbing to moving water canoeing, no matter what high adventure training I receive there are usually a few qualified women instructors, but they tend not to wear translucent yellow blouses. Call me sexist, chauvinistic, or whatever, but women (and men) who are not strong outdoor role models should have no place in Boy Scouts except behind the scenes. Kudu

Brian, If you read only one book about Scouting, I would suggest Tim Jeal's Baden-Powell. As far as I know it is the only book about Scouting with a critical analysis of both the gushingly pro-BSA books such as Hillcourt's Baden-Powell: Two Lives of a Hero, and the off-base leftist critiques of Scouting such as Rosenthal's The Character Factory. Jeal devotes an entire chapter to the popular-culture aspect of Baden-Powell's Scouting for Boys and writes in part that the publisher "Pearson's formula had been copied from Tid Bits and involved interspersing uplifting material with curious facts and entertaining anecdotes. To appeal to the semi-literate public created by compulsory education reading matter had to be easy to understand. Everett suggested that the Peason's Weekly potpourri approach would also be ideal for a youthful readership, so Baden-Powell divided Scouting for Boys into 10 chapters and 28 'Camp Fire Yarns'. This apparent rag-bag of unrelated topics was in reality a cunning blend of entertainment, moral exhortation, practical advice and escapism. A boy could easily skip what did not interest him and pass on to what did [baden-Powell, pages 390-391]." Scouting for Boys incorporated all of the popular fantasy genres of the time, from boys' adventure comics to "black entertainment" murder mysteries. The 21st century media equivalent to the printed page of Scouting for Boys would be the video tube from television to the Internet to video games. Given all of the extraordinary advances in couch-potato technologies, the more interesting question for me is "If B-P introduced his Traditional brand of Scouting in the United States in 2006, how would it differ from the BSA?" This is a question that a number of American Scouters have already addressed in their efforts to establish alternative Scouting associations :-) Baden-Powell's Scouting differs from BSA Scouting in a number of different areas, including: Uniforms: (B-P = Outdoor, BSA = Indoor); Wood Badge: (B-P = Outdoor Patrol Leadership Skills specific to the Scout Section, BSA = Indoor Corporate Leadership Skills dumbed down to be useful to Cub Scout Yellow Blouses); Troop Leadership: (B-P = Patrol Leader [Patrol] Based & Appointed, BSA = SPL [Troop] Based & Elected); Ideals: (BSA added "Reverent" to the B-P Scout Law, "Morally Straight" to the B-P Scout Promise, and a conservative religious test for membership); and Progressive Training: (examined below): PROGRESSIVE TRAINING 1. EXPEDITIONS: The most striking difference between Baden-Powell's "Progressive Training" and BSA "Advancement" is the traditional "final" test for each "Award" (what the BSA calls "Ranks"). This is a series of progressively more challenging "Expeditions" required for advancement in the Scout program. With the exception of the very last remaining vestige in the BSA core program (the Second Class five mile hike), these adventures have been dumbed out of the BSA core advancement program altogether. Even the wimpy three mile backpacking requirement for BSA Camping Merit Badge has been demoted to a mere option, so it is now possible for a BSA Parlour Scout to earn Eagle without ever once having entered the woods with pack on his back! a) First Class: In Baden-Powell's Scouting what was once known in the BSA as the "First Class Journey" still remains an adult-free 24-hour backpacking trip of at least 15 miles through rugged territory. One group, the Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA) has hedged its bets concerning safety by doubling the maximum number of two Second Class Scouts in the Journey to a total of four, and adding an adult "shadow party" which follows these Scouts at an appropriate distance without interacting with them in any way. b) Star: Baden-Powell's equivalent to "Star," the "Scout Cord," requires a similar adult-free two day journey to a location with which the Scouts are not familiar. The usual method is to drop the First Class Scouts off in the dark at a location marked on their maps, with a second set of Scouters secretly watching to make sure they set off on the correct compass bearing toward the destination marked on their maps. c) Life: The Venturer Badge is required for Baden-Powell's equivalent to "Life" called the "Bushman's Cord." This involves two "Journeys:" A short one in which the candidate leads his Patrol through a series of at least 5 "incidents" such as rescues from fire or heights, compass work, and signalling over distance. The second is a 20 mile adult-free Journey on foot or by boat through rugged territory on a route with which the candidate is not familiar. Typically this includes one or two tasks on which the Scout reports with a written report. d) Eagle: Baden-Powell's equivalent to "Eagle" includes the usually optional Senior Explorer Badge with an Expedition of at least four (4) days with three (3) nights spent in tents. This journey must be at least 50 miles by foot or water in wild country, or 62 miles by horseback in wild country. Other Scouting elements missing from the BSA's core Progressive Training program include: 2. OBSERVATION & DEDUCTION: Woodcraft Trail Signs, Stalking, and Tracking, including requirements such as "Follow a minimum one mile of Woodcraft Signs in about 25 minutes." "Kim's Game" is another such missing observational advancement requirement. 3. SIGNALING (actually a different form of observation and interpretation): Surprisingly, Morse, semaphore, manual alphabet (American Sign Language for communicating with the deaf), and Indian Sign Language, were not part of the program in England, but were used in B-P's program elsewhere in the former British Empire (including the BSA) while B-P was alive, and are therefore included in the Traditional programs of other countries including the USA. 4. CURRENT PROFICIENCY: Baden-Powell's program has fewer Proficiency Badges, with advanced "Senior Scouts" versions that replace the elementary "Scout Section" Proficiency Badges. A Scout may not wear a Proficiency Badge if he is not currently proficient in that skill. For instance, if he fails to renew his first aid certification every year, he must remove the first aid badge from his Uniform. 5. RETESTING: Baden-Powell Scouts are retested on the Tenderfoot requirements as the second to the last requirement of Second Class, and retested on the Second Class requirements as the second to the last requirement for First Class. The retesting is done by the Patrol Leader, who can waive the requirement for Patrol members who help him teach these skills to other Scouts. 6. NO ADULT Scoutmaster Conferences or Boards of Review: These exist in Baden-Powell's program only as a Tenderfoot and Second Class interview with the Scoutmaster to discuss the meaning of Scout Law (not to be judged by the Scoutmaster as to how the Scout "lives" the Scout Law), and a Tenderfoot and Second Class review by the Court of Honor (the Patrol Leaders' Court) as to how the Scout is working out in his new Patrol. The equivalent to Eagle does require an interview. Kudu

Just don't count on my support in your proposal. Try to imagine my surprise to hear that a member of a Red State, right-wing religious organization is against the establishment of alternative Scouting associations for those against whom they discriminate! :-) I trust you have a full national organization capable of taking on the charter. I'm not sure what you mean by "capable of taking on the charter." It sounds like you mean "cabable of taking over the Scouting monopoy." The problem here is that the idea of freedom in the marketplace is so foreign to members of the BSA that they simply can not concieve of it. The Baden-Powell Scout Association is my idea of an alternative national organization. This is the smaller-scale, all-volunteer model proposed by Baden-Powell. I would also support the idea of establishing additional Charters (in addition to the BSA's Charter) for other small Scouting associations. Maybe the Charter School movement can provide a model for thinking of Scouting not as a bloated government-sanctioned corporate monopoly, but as independent nimble experiments in serving small niche Scouting markets. All you have to do is get folks in 218 House Districts and 51 Senators to agree to your proposition. The idea that half of Congress supports Blue State values is not science fiction. The first step is to challenge the idea that the BSA's existing Congressional Charter prohibits others from using "trademarked" terms like "Scouts" and "Scouting." This is already in progress. See: http://youthscouts.org/news.html This challenge has been filed in San Francisco, an area not widely known for its support of the BSA's policies of discrimination. A favorable ruling there will force the BSA to appeal to the Ninth Circuit, another venue that is not always on the same page as the BSA :-/ If this case makes it all the way to the Supreme Court, the publicity might cause liberals, moderates, Goldwater Republicans, and libertarians to think outside the box for the very first time and challenge their unspoken assumption that big government should be in the business of establishing monopolies for institutions of religious discrimination. Kudu

Thanks for your comments Lisa! To reply point by point: 1. What would your current CO think about this? I'm not sure exactly what the American Legion has in mind, and I'm looking for feedback before I follow up. Our CO is a Catholic Church. 2. How are you going to ensure that the eligible scouts join? I told them that they would have to sell the Scouts on it, and explain the program to their parents. The brochures do not mention regular meetings. Perhaps someone on the list knows what joining the Sons of the American Legion actually involves, and how much variation there is from group to group. 3. You mention right off the bat that there is a political aspect here. Yes, for instance the brochure that they want us to distribute to the Scouts contains the passage: "Sons of the American Legion are assisting The American Legion and the Citizens Flag Alliance in their efforts to secure a Constitutional Amendment to protect the Flag of the United States from desecration." When American Legion and VFW members see our Scouts marching in ceremonies each with his own flag, and find out that I personally purchased 24 American Flags to do this, they always assume that I support this Constitutional Amendment, but I always keep my political views to myself. My personal experience with right-wing conservatives is that when they assume that you share the same political values, they will move heaven and earth to help your Scouts. This would be about the Scouts, not about discussing with them my personal views. For instance, one of our Scouts needs guidance in parliamentary procedure, and I notice that one of their goals is "To learn how to conduct a meeting using Roberts Rules of Order. But given my personal views, I would like to know in advance what kind of political indoctrination (if any) to expect. 4. If you were to leave your "transitional" neighborhood and hold meetings elsewhere.... No, it is my understanding that we would continue to hold our meetings at our current Sponsoring Organization, but hold additional fund-raisers and opportunities for public-service through the American Legion facilities. Kudu