kenk

During this spring's OA elections, the person representing the lodge and overseeing the elections was adiment that Scouts had to be present to be considered eligible for election. Unfortunately one of the boys who the Scoutmaster wanted included in the election couldn't attend the Troop Meeting that night.

I can't find anything in the on-line election rules that states the Scout must be present to be on the ballot.

Your feedback? Your experience?

By the way, kind of referring to another thread, during this spring's OA election one boy who did NOT get enough votes has Asperger's Syndrome, which means he can be a irritating to the other boys at times. I felt bad for him since deep down he is a hard worker. It hit close to home since my own son, who just earned his First Class rank, also has Asperger's Syndrome, which also makes him not very popular with some of the other Scouts. I asked my son what he thought about it and he said that it was OK if he didn't get voted into OA. We'll see how it goes in the next few years. I suspect eventually he'll get voted in if he stays in the troop long enough.

Those floors that look like woven plastic tarps are only found on cheap tents, such as Wenzel and some Coleman tents. Good quality tents have nylon or sometimes polyester (not to be confused with polyethylene) floors. Good rain flys are usually made of polyester since it handles UV degradation from sunlight better than nylon.

Tents, like just about everything else, range in quality from crap to really high quality stuff, but quality can cost money since it requires higher price fabrics, coatings, poles, and assembly. Today, it is more common than not to find good tents that come with factory sealed seams.

The good news is that high quality tents don't have to cost a lot. For an adult I'd suggest a 4-person or 6-person tent. Eureka Timberline 4-person tents can be had for $150 and the Eureka Tetragon 8 4-person for $100. For Scouters, the Alps Mountaineering Meramac 4-person regular duty costs only $66, and the heavy duty version costs $100.

I myself recently bought a heavy duty Alps Mountaineering Meramac 6 person for $142 - a high quality tent that has performed very well for me this year.

Stick to good brand names - Eureka, Alps Mountaineering, REI, Sierra Designs, Kelty - and you can't go too wrong. Personally I'd avoid Wenzel and Coleman (though some people do seem to have luck with colemans).

I like the idea of each person pitching in with the patrol's cook gear. The person assigned to KP should make sure water is heating, set up the wash stations and drying area, and then be responsible for making sure gear is washed, and washed correctly.

There are Scouts in my son's troop that are great washers, and then there are others that regularly do an inadequate job, and need to be watched & guided. Most of the Scouts are notorious for not cleaning the dutch ovens well - or waiting until the contents have dried solid.

From "The Scoutmaster Handbook", Chapter 9, Cleaning Up:

"Scouts in charge of cleanup can accelerate the process by heating a pot or two of water on the stove or campfire whle the patrol is eating. When the meal ends, the Scouts can set out one pot of hot water containing biodegradable soap, a second pot of clear, hot rinse water, and a pot of cold water with a sanitizing tablet or a few drops of bleach to kill bacteria. If each Scout washes his own dishes and a pot or a cooking utensil, the work will be done quickly and no one will have to spend a long time at it."

1. Wash in hot soapy water

2. Rinse in hot clear water

3. Rinse in cool sanitizing solution

4. Allow to air dry in order to avoid re-contamination

The bleach water shouldn't be too cold, as that would reduce the chlorine's sanitizing power. Luke-warm water (75F-100F) with 1/2-1 tablespoon of bleach per gallon and allowing the gear to soak for a minute or two is best for sanitizing.

We recommend puting the soap container in front of the wash bucket and putting the bleach bottle in front of the sanitizing bucket - just to make sure Scouts use the correct buckets.

As soon as the utensils dry, the chlorine will escape as a gas. There should be no residual odor.

The wash-sanitize-rinse method isn't recommended as it risks recontamination of untensils in dirty rinse water.

Cleaning of hands (washing, wet wipes, or hand sanitizer) is an often missed element of hygeine. Unwashed hands can easily transfer e. coli and other nasties to food, surfaces, and shared serving utensils. A very good practice is to have everyone wash hands before meals - not just the cooks.

To summarize, so far I've learned ...

- That a single person who has had sex outside of marriage should not be a SM or ASM. What about people who have drunk alcohol underage, or who have gotten a speeding ticket?

- That people who are younger than 23 should not be a SM because they don't have enough life experience. How old does one have to be to have gathered enough experience to be a SM?

- That a young female adult should not be a SM because she might be distracting to the boys. I suppose women are limited to serving on the committee, or better yet maybe they should stay away from the troop altogether, especially if they are attractive.

- That someone whose parent was the previous leader of a troop should not beome a leader. I'd better tell our SM's son Frankie that he is not allowed to come back to our troop after college and serve as a leader.

The GS leaders are volunteers just like in CS & BS. If the leaders quit then then there are two choices: (1) another parent steps up to become the leaders, or (2) the troop is dissolved.

Choice #2 happened with my daughter's first troop. The leader moved to Detroit so the troop disolved. Luckily my daughter moved to another troop that is much more active and "outdoors-involved", as opposed to focusing on makeup and more "girlie" stuff.

About the audit, I do think that is one of those necessary not-so-fun things associated with any organization - volunteer or not. I would think it to be irresposible for an adult to refuse to show the council the financial records. If troop members are giving the troop leader money then she/he has a responsiblity to track that money to be able to prove it is all on the up-and-up. This protects both the troop members and the leader.

I understand what you're going through because my son, who is now into his second year as a Boy Scout and is now a First Class scout, has Aspergers Syndrome too - though his case isn't as extreme as some.

My advice is to just keep asking questions in different ways until something clicks and he provides an answer that meets the requirements. Its unfair to the other Scouts to just give up and check-off the AS Scout's requirement assuming he understood or knows. Like you said, with AS he can probably learn skills and facts faster than most people, the tougher part is usually when a requirement "asks" a softer question - a question that asks for an opinion.

The Scout will probably need much more guidance and patience, AND he'll likely need help organizing, but he can and will learn and have fun doing it. You just need to be patient with him.

My son had problems starting with merit badges at summer camp - picking them and getting to the first session, but after that he was OK. He also has real problems keeping long-term logs/journals going as called for in merit badges like Family Life and Personal Management. His parents will need to be very involved and supportive for him to succeed there.

I should mention that I am an asst. scoutmaster with the troop. I try to be there to help him when his AS gets in the way, but I also try to stay away enough for him to interact on his own, make decisions, and make mistakes. I mostly try to ensure success for those things that can't be "fixed" or "redone".

At summer camp for example, if he somehow goofs up and misses the Monday & Tuesday merit badge sessions, then it will likely be too late to make it up for the rest of the week, so I helped him understand the merit badge options available to him, helped him organize his schedule for the week, made sure that he carries a written schedule with him, and make sure he wears a watch.

I do my best to not help "too much".

Oh, I also make sure I ask him what he cares about. For example, I was concerned that his AS would prevent him from getting voted into OA, but he says he doesn't care. If that's OK with him, then that's OK with me. Also, he says he doesn't care if he gets Eagle - that's OK with me to. I just want him to learn, socialize, and have fun.

As with any other Scout, we should facilitate their learning and advancement and celebrate their successes.

Not all Scouts are the same. We certainly shouldn't try to add artificial requirements to try to slow down the go-getters.

L.H. -- well said.

Having grown up with a twin sister in a family that loved to camp, I have no doubt that outdoor skills have no gender. There are two moms in our small troop that take a very active role as leaders. One is an ASM, and the other is a treasurer (also the leader of my daughter's GS troop - yeah!). They work hard, are great leaders, great role models, and the Scouts like when they're along.

At the beginning of the week our lodge made arrangements with each troop to have a lodge member come sit around the evening campfire with the troop, tell a story, talk about OA, and answer any questions. It came off real well with our troop last summer (my first year in Boy Scouts).

Another nice beginner's compass is the Brunton 9020G.

This compass provides for tool-free adjustable declination, and the bright optic green color "may" make it more finable if dropped.

Based upon my Scoutmaster training experience, I found it a bit frustrating that our council recommends ignoring magnetic declination when working with Scouts. Here in my area the declination is only about 3 degrees so its not such a big deal, but in other areas of the country magnetic north can be as much as 18 degrees from true north.

When I was a Cub Scout leader I started the boys out with compasses fairly young. We'd do a pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey game where we tought the boys how to point the compass to a target on a wall and then "box" the needle. We'd first show them how the needle always points in the same direction no matter where they'd turn. Then we'd teach them how to "box" the needle to remember which direction they want to go. At first adults would help them do this. Then we'd give them a post-it note, put a sheet over them, gently spin them around a few times, and then, with the sheet still on, we'd have them use the compass to orient themselves toward the target without rotating the bezel, and then start walking toward the target with the post-it note leading the way until they reach the wall and stick the note in place. To be safe we'd have an adult walk in front of them to make sure they didn't bang too hard into the wall.

When they were Webelos I created a triangular compass course where there were a series of starting points (flags in the ground) for each boy - about 50 feet apart along a straight line. Each of them got a card with a series of three bearings and associated paces to walk. What they didn't know was that they were walking a right triangle with sides of length 3-4-5. You can use any size triangle as long as the sides are multiples of 3, 4, and 5, respectively. The angles of the corners are as follows:

Between sides 4 & 5: 37 degrees

Between sides 5 & 3: 53 degrees

Between sides 3 & 4: 90 degrees

It takes a bit of angle geometry and thinking to figure out the bearings, but here is an example:

So, suppose they start out at the 4 & 5 corner:

1. Take a bearing of 260 degrees and walk 25 paces.

2. Take a bearing of 117 degrees and walk 15 paces. 117 = 260 + (180-53) - 10

3. Take a bearing of 207 degrees and walk 20 paces. 207 = 117 + (180-90)

When done, they should be standing at their original starting points. Some Scouts figured that out, others didn't. When we did this, we had an adult helping the first time, but then the second time we doubled the number of paces (50, 30, 40), and they did it on their own. You could also have every other Scout do different sized triangles, so long as they are pacing a multiple of 5, 3, and 4.

In our troop, after the flag has been posted, the SPL says "square off to the flag" just before he calls for the salute.

I just hope someone doesn't want to cut a corner off of my Therm-a-rest if I snore too loud!!

jblake47 gave the right answer, but then started straying into Wisconsin (?) law and personal opinions.

Besides the Guide to Safe Scouting, the real answer is to check with your local and state laws, or if on federal property, you'll need to check with those laws.

Here is a link that you might find useful:

http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm

(This message has been edited by kenk)

The advice given here is excellent.

I'm curious what exactly you mean when you said "throttle him".

Ken

When the troop first started (before I was around) the leaders planned to buy some troop tents and asked the boys if they wanted one larger tent or several smaller tents - of course they wanted one large party tent. They soon learned the lack of sleep was an issue, and scouts started bringing their own tents. Now boys without their own tent use the party tent (not many do that) and others use their own tents. We encourage them to stick to smaller tents and have two scouts per tent.

The reality of the night-time bladder pressure issue is that regardless of the rules, I suspect the scout will typically find a place to releive himself much as the indians might have - well within sight of his tent (and his sleeping buddy).

I purchased a PLB w/ internal GPS at the end of last year. The purchase had absolutely nothing to do with Scouting. My scouts will not be put in a situation where a PLB might be needed. If I had a venture crew things might be different.

My family likes to travel to areas that are not covered by cell phones and we tend to like to drive on the side roads where traffic is not very heavy and hike back a ways off the roads. After the James Kim tragedy my wife & I decided the price for a PLB was reasonable insurance for safety.

I don't buy the idea that PLB's are simply gadgets - they save lives. I don't buy the idea that PLB's encourage risk-taking. A PLB with an internal GPS can bring help to you very fast. A satellite phone wouldn't have helped James Kim much since he didn't really know where he was, though he might have been able to give an approximate location. The real problem with satellite phones is their very high cost.

If you do buy one, please spend the extra for the one with an internal GPS. To understand why, read this VERY good independent review of PLB's:

http://www.equipped.org/406_beacon_test2_toc.htm

Even if you get one, don't forget you'll need to be equipped to be able to survive until help arrives (first aid, knife, shelter, warmth, fire, water), AND you'll want signalling gear to help them find you (whistle, bright flashlight/headlamp, signal mirror, fire)

Headlights are wonderful! Somehow it is always pointing in the direction I'm looking. Magic!

These days I recommend the Princeton Tec EOS - an LED light that uses AAA batteries. Very bright, but also has a lower setting that is perfect for inside tent use.

I still carry a regular flashlight, but not sure why. Eventually it may just get left home.

So what you're saying is that the south might have won if only they had limited themselves to "a sharp pocketknife with a can opener". I for one am glad didn't have BSA's fine advice back then, otherwise I'd need to take my passport to visit Florida. :-)

I always smile at this topic. Luckily my son's troop (I'm an ASM) allows use of fixed blade knives, recognizing their inherent value in camping, but still enforces the bans on them on some council-owned properties - a Scout is obedient.

I find it interesting that the descriptive quality of "unsafe" is used in this discussion about fixed blade knives.

What is it about a fixed blade knife that might make it more unsafe than a folding knife?

Is a folder with a locking blade more unsafe than a folder without a locking blade?

Concern was voiced about carrying a sheathed fixed blade knife in a pocket. Why is that considered unsafe?

Is there a concern that the knife will somehow cut through the sheath and hurt someone even while stored in the sheath (and not folded within its own handle)? That would be a failure of the sheath's design, not the knife. There are sheaths designed for such issues - even ones certified as "jump safe" for military skydivers.

Is a stick carried in a pocket considered unsafe? What about a flashlight or keys?

Is a fixed blade knife harder to control than a folding knife? Is a folding knife with a locking blade harder to control than a folding knife without a locked blade?

Should someone invent a folding axe or hatchet? Would that be safer?

Are fixed blade knives perceived to be larger than folding knives and therefore unsafe? How small should a knife be to be safe?

I agree that large blades are heavy (steel weighs a lot). I agree that large fixed blade knifes can be more awkward to carry (I tend to carry my 4.5" bladed knife in my daypack). I don't agree with the GTSS's use of the word "necessary" since many thinks are not necessary, but are indeed useful. I agree that large blades are not well suited to some tasks, but I also know that small blades are not well suited to other tasks. I agree that quality fixed blade knives are stronger than quality folding knives (the hinge is always a weakpoint). I firmly believe that fixed blade knives are much easier to clean than folding blades (expecially after gutting a big ol' pumpkin)!

One last thing I know ... that it is much easier to get peanut butter out of a jar with a knife than with an axe ... unless you don't feel the need to reuse the jar ... chop!!

The problem was that she didn't leave a trip plan with friends or family, nor did she even leave a note in her car. The searchers didn't know whether she was "out there" or had simply left her car there and left the area. They clearly had no idea that she'd planned to be backpacking for two weeks - I'm guessing they assumed she was a hiker.

If she had left a plan they'd at least have known where to look for her. If she'd left it with friends or family, they'd have at least started searching a few days earlier.

The reports say she made camp to wait for the flood water to subside, but it didn't until long enough after her food ran out that she was too weak to move. I'm guessing that is also how she became dehydrated - too weak to get water. She must have been very close to death when the hikers found her.

If she'd invested in a personal locator beacon she probably would have waited for the water to go down, and when it didn't and her food started running it out she could have activated the beacon. She would have been rescued in short time.

Ken K.

I'll echo the recommendation to spend some time at http://www.equipped.org .

Doug Ritter is the executive director of the not-for-profit Equipped To Survive Foundation, whose focus is on saving lives through proper education and preparation about survival and emergencies.

Regarding the James Kim event, Doug pointed out that a 406 MHz personal locator beacon (PLB) would have gotten them rescued promptly - probably in a matter of a day, if not just hours.

I'd encourage Scout leaders who take Scouts on remote adventures - and anyone who travels in remote areas outside of normal mobile phone range - to consider including a PLB in their gear.

They are a bit expensive ($600), but it could be a small price to pay if someone becomes severely injured days away from help/rescue.

As a young man out of college I went on a trip through the Boundary Waters with a small group - three canoes with four men and two women. At one point two of the men started messing around with a tree that had fallen on top of anothe tree. They were climbing the tree and cutting limbs in a foolhearty (hindsight is 20/20) attempt to free the other tree. In hindsight I can easily imagine one of them falling to the ground or severely cutting themselves in the "fun". We were easily 2-3 full days of hard paddling/portaging from the nearest help. On top of that, one of those men was the only person who really knew where we were (yeah, I know that was foolish - that was way before GPS's were around).

This summer my family will be traveling through Glacier National Park. Our PLB will be with us ... just in case.

Equipped.org has quite a bit of information/reviews on PLB's if you'd like more information.

You don't heat tents. Flame and tents don't go together. Hot rocks don't hold that much heat and can risk melting nylon and polyester. Also, just about any additional heat will only encourage condensation on the tent walls which is not a good thing and can literally soak your gear as the sun warms up the tent during the day. You may even be better off opening up the tent's windows at night to allow plenty of ventilation.

You need to have a good sleeping bag, a hat, and very dry jammies. There will be a bit of coldness when first sliding into the sleeping bag, but soon enough you'll be plenty warm.

I've seen some debate as to whether you should have a snack before bedtime to keep the metabolism running. I tend to think this is more a matter of personal preference. I tend to try not to drink too much just before going to bed in order to avoid a cold trip to the latrine in the middle of the night since I have yet to feel comfortable using a pee-bottle at night.

You said it well. I couldn't agree more.

Yup, putting a ground cloth INSIDE the tent as well as underneath is a great idea. Keep in mind that the waterproofing coating is on the inside, so anything that cuts, scrapes, or wears off that coating destroys the waterproofness of the tent.

Have each Scout bring thier own groundcloth of sufficient size to fit the tent floor - use one under (fold as needed so it doesn't stick out), one over, and if there are three Scouts, keep one in reserve for all sorts of other tasks such as covering firewood, covering gear left outside, etc...

By the way, if you're going canoing where you'll have to portage the canoes and gear, you'd still want to carry light weight tents. I suppose 3 Scouts per tent does lighten the load at bit, but you might even try 4 per tent there.