kenk

Though many like cartridge stoves, I just haven't liked them. Coleman fuel burns MUCH hotter and is really not to hard to work with.

You really can't go too wrong with any of the MSR stoves, though many have complained that the Whisperlite doesn't simmer too well. I haven't had that problem with my older Whisperlite, mabye because I tend not to fill the fuel bottle completely full.

Lots of people use the Coleman Feather 400 and 442 stoves and the Coleman Apex II stove (which comes with a seperate fuel tank).

If I were buying right now I'd probably go for the Apex II for about $60 (with the fuel bottle).

As a Webelos Den Leader whose boys will be crossing over this coming March, I wholeheartedly agree that a winter (or cold-weather) campout should NOT be the boys first camping experience as a Boy Scout. Cold weather camping can be a lot of fun, but if not prepared or dressed correctly it can be dangerous. Even then, it can be uncomfortable at times.

I do wonder why the packs are pusing the cross-overs so early. Because of local issues we had to move ours from February to March, and I've found this to be a great thing. The boys have already selected the troop they want to join and we have had several joint activities with the troop (bowling, etc) to let the boys get to know each other.

I'm actually in a similar, but different, situation. The troop that my boys are joining is planning a short urban backpacking trip in late March. It sounds like a pretty cool activity where the boys will take a training into the big city, backpack about a mile to another station, take a train (or bus?) to the state border, and then backpack about two miles to the camp site. The plan is for them to sleep under tarps instead of tents.

Although this sounds like a lot of fun, I am worried that it is not appropriate for the new Scouts' very first campout. When I told the boys about the activity (I was very carefull to present it as a positive cool activity) they were really negative about it. The parents weren't happy either.

None of the boys have backpacks and the parents are not too happy about buying packs for 5th graders who are growing rapidly. Most, if not all, of the boys have never camped without a parent in the tent. Also the longest hike we've ever taken was 3 miles with only daypacks last fall.

I KNOW they'll enjoy backpacking eventually (soon?), but they need some time to grow into Boy Scout camping.

I'm asking the Scoutmaster to consider having the boys participate wearing only daypacks (outdoor essentials plus), and have a parent drive the rest of their gear & tents to the camp site for this activity.

Ken K.

A few additional thoughts:

Regarding warming the air in the tent itself:

You don't want a warm tent. It encourages condensation on the walls. If condensation is severe, open up the windows. Tents don't keep you warm, sleeping bags, pads, clothing, etc... - those keep you warm. As mentioned by someone else, do not bring candles or heaters inside a tent.

Regarding sleeping pad insulation:

Open-celled foam does provide plenty of insulation so long as it is not overly compressed. A Thermarest pad can provide plenty of insulation ... so long as it is not overly compressed. To limit compression, you might blow some extra air into the Thermarest to make it a bit harder (to avoid overcompression). An even better idea, as mentioned by others, is to place a second FULL-SIZED closed-cell foam pad underneath the Thermarest. Placing insulation over the entire floor will certainly make moving around the tent more comfortable, but I've never done that.

Fueling the Furnace:

Before going to bed you'll want to make sure your body is generating heat, as it is the sole source of heat for keeping your warm at night. First, make sure you have something to eat - Fuel for the fire. Second, take a walk just before heading into your tent for the night - to get the furnace (and blood) running.

Does anyone here use TroopMaster DotNet, which allows troops to store/share a TroopMaster on a shared server? If so, how do you like using it?

Thanks,

Ken K.

I was thinking of 4 - two scouts for buddy system, one adult leader, and another adult for two-deep

I guess you could say 2 - one scout and his adult leader parent?

It sounds like you're handling this well. The only thing I might add is that technically, since the two boys will not have earned the AOL, they can't join a Boy Scout Troop until they turn age 11 or graduate to 6th brade. The one boy technically can't join a Boy Scout Troop until he has turned 11 in late April. Luckily since your B&G is in early April, the difference is really small and essentially invisible.

If there is a troop activity between the B&G and the boy's 11th birthday, I would suggest the troop technically include the boy as a Webelos, treat him EXACTLY as if he had joined the troop, BUT ask a parent (or guardian) to participate in any overnight camping (per the Cub Scout rules). I'd suggest the boy sleep in a tent with another boy - not the parent, and that the parent sleep in a separate tent, so the boy gets the full Boy Scout experience.

Once he turns 11, then he's 100% boy scout.

This sounds nice, though I've never even heard of it. Where is it located?

In graduate school at Iowa State Univ. I spent a summer on the Missouri taking samples for the Army Corps of Engineers and analyzing the results in the lab. A VERY fast flowing river, but some wonderful backwaters.

I also went to high school along the Mississippi in Dubuque, Iowa and spent a little time on the river there. Much slower to the point that we could easily paddle upstream to reach some fun back areas, though we did get swamped by a barge once. Not a big deal because we'd always head near shore when a barge was coming - they are VERY dangerous (but a key part of the area's economy - no complaints).

le Voyageur, have you been to the message board on paddling.net? I just found it recently and have enjoyed reading the posts there. I can't say I agree with all the opinions given there, but I guess that's the case with most any forum.

Ken K.

With all due respect, even parents should follow the program rules; otherwise its not fair to those boys who do.

In a post to another thread about Cub Scouts, John Daigler pointed out:

In the Cub Scout Leader Book (2005 Printing), in section 18, page 18-3 is a section entitled "How fast should a boy advance?". It continues over onto 18-4 where it states, "He may not begin working on the requirments for the next rank until he reaches the next grade or age requirement."

Webelos Scouts can earn activity badges at anytime during their time in a Webelos den, but they cannot earn the Arrow of Light until they are in 5th grade (or age 10). A boy joining a Webelos den as a 5th grader can earn both the Webelos Badge and the Arrow of Light. The Webelos Badge must be earned before a boy can earn the Arrow of Light award.

"If a boy is close to earning a badge of rank when school ends, he may be allowed a few extra weeks to finish before going on to the next rank."

The Scout leaders have an obligation to teach the parents the program.

I had to wait a bit for the knot in my stomach to go away before I could reply.

I will include Derrick, his family, and his friends in my prayers. The good news is that Derrick is now bathed in the love of God and is no longer in doubt.

We had a 3rd grade boy (not in my Pack) killed in a car accident while leaving school on the last day of school before the winter break. They had all sorts of presentations to parents that day and had left a camera at school. The parents called the teacher and arranged to go back to the school to get the camera. After getting the camera the mother turned onto the main road to leave the school and apparently turned into the path of an oncoming truck. The teacher was right behind them and ran to help, but the boy died in her arms. (darn, there's that knot again). His 2nd grade sister was in the other side of the back seat but luckily both she and the mother survived though with some injuries.

The first thing I did when I heard about the tragidy was to check to see if he was one of our Pack's boys. He wasn't, though he could have been in our sister pack (two packs in our school). I spent a lot of time talking about this with my two kids (4th & 5th graders). Today was the first day of school since tha accident. It is a tough lesson for kids.

The only way I can deal with this is to have faith that those who leave us are truely in a much better place. The real focus has to go to those left behind.

Ken K.

No. The uniform is an important part of Scouting, but that does not mean that the Scout uniform can't change to support the goals of Scouting. More comfort via fabrics and construction. Some way(s) to make it easier to sew on patchs (I hate to sew patches on pockets).

Though in recent years (as opposed to my ancient youth) I have only participated in Scouting up through the second year of Webelos, I can tell you that the youngest boys are thrilled to wear their uniforms. That excitement doesn't dwindle as the boys reach the Webelos years - it actually increases as the boys get a sense of pride in themselves and their Scouting experince.

As my son moves up to Boy Scouts I will learn more about the boys' perception of uniforms as they enter pre-teen and teen years. I suspect they will be happy to wear them in Scouting activities, but somewhat embarassed about them in non-Scouting social settings. That is understandable to me. The use of field uniforms (t-shirts) and the uniform optionality of Venturing seems to provide reasonable alternatives that meet the needs of Scouting and its youth.

Maybe the resurgence of pro-military feelings are helping, but I find people (adults) have tremendous respect for boys and adults in uniform.

Having a group of Webelos who will soon be entering Boy Scouts AND a son who would lose his shoes if they weren't tied on ...

Do you have any advice for minimizing gear loss? I guess I'm thinking of smaller items: pocketknife, compass, flashlight, water bottle, etc...

When I was a kid we had some kind of clip with a leather thong - we'd fasten the clip to the pocketknife and the end of the thong to a belt loop and there was enough length for the knife to sit in our pocket, but it was a pain to unfasten for use.

It actually happened to me at one of my very first den meetings as a Tiger Cub Den Leader (I'm a 2nd year Webelos Den Leader now).

I one of the boy's father identified to host the den meeting. I had been in contact with him via telephone and had discussed the achievement that we'd cover and the activities that he'd have the boys do in the meeting. He had asked me to bring an opening game to keep the boys occupied when other arrive, so I did that.

People started to arrive and the father still hadn't shown up, so I was a bit worried, but confident the father would show. Eventually the boy walked in with his mother, so my worst fears were calmed. I figured the father was parking the car and unloading stuff. After a while I got worried again because he didn't come into the school. I asked the mother (wife) where he was. She said he wasn't feeling well so he stayed home. I said "Oh, so you're going to handle the meeting?" She said "No". I was feeling a combination of anger and dread.

Well, I got out my handbook and lead a bit of a discussion session, then we did some role-playing, and then I made up a game with stuff in the room (school cafeteria). It actually went pretty well, but I swore that would never happen again.

My wife said I should have blamed it on the father and told the boys/parents that the meeting was cancelled because the boy's parent didn't show up. But I thought the boys wouldn't understand that. By the second year that boy left the den anyway.

The next weekend I put together a craft box with a bunch of generic stuff that could be put together. For each meeting I also did a bit of pre-planning and bringing basic stuff along that could be used if the parent didn't show - which luckily never happened again.

Yeah, I get what you're saying - I'm actually a statistician by trade.

I assumed that by "general population" they were referring to non-autistic population, so, for example, out of 1 million people:

Non-AS: 995,000 people, of which 100 w/ perfect pitch

With-AS: 5,000 people, of which 250 w/ perfect pitch

The information was taken from an article I read by Donna Rosinski, from a Madison, WI Autism group. I have also read some other articles that say those with autism don't have such unusual pitch capabilities though.

One thing I have found is that the AS "support community" is small enough that information gets borrowed and it is pretty easy for unsubstantiated opinions grow into fact.

The truth is that there is not a single Aspergers Syndrome blue print. Each child has a similar, yet unique mix of AS traits. My son's AS is milder than many, though he still shares at least a bit of everything listed. There is another boy in our Webelos den whose parents thought had AS (I never heard if he'd been officially diagnosed but I "know" he does) and his issues are more pronounced than my son's and yet quite different. For example, in the area of senory perception, my son hates loud noises, wet stuff (though he loves to swim), and uncontrolled movement (roller coasters), but the other boy hates to be touched.

Another example is that AS kids tend to have a "specialty" subject that they focus almost all their efforts on. The other boys focuses on presidents and history - has for all four years that I've known him. My son on the other hand has rotated through a series of subjects and doesn't seem nearly as absorbed by them.

What is Asperger's Syndrome?

Aspergers Syndrome is an Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). It was first identified by a German pediatrician. Dr. Hans Asperger. in the 1940's, but his work was disregarded until it was re-discovered in the 1980's, and it was not listed in DSM IV until 1994. Autism is a neurobiological disorder that affects an individual's language, social skills, sensory responses, cognitive skills, and motor skills. Asperger's Syndrome (AS) is on the milder end of the spectrum, and individuals with AS may be highly intelligent and/or gifted in some areas. There are anatomical differences in the brains of individuals with autism, mainly in the cerebellum and frontal cortex. These differences have been confirmed by autopsy, imaging, and animal studies. However, there is presently no medical test that can confirm that a particular person has an ASD; the diagnosis is made based on behavior. According to Dr. Marie Bristol-Powers, of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, the incidence of Autism Spectrum Disorders, including Aspergers Syndrome, is now 1 in 200. It is more common than you think, and numbers seem to be on the rise for unknown reasons. 75 of people with autism are male.

What causes it?

We don't know for sure yet. but there is definitely a genetic component, confirmed by twin studies. Our best guess right now is that a genetic predisposition combined with an unknown in-utero factor at 20-27 days after conception (before most women know that they're pregnant) may be responsible. What are the characteristics of Asperger's Syndrome and how would they affect workplace behavior?

Language: Difficulty with pragmatics (using language to have a conversation). They may make irrelevant comments, interrupt, or give long monologues on a topic that interests them regardless of whether the listener is interested. They may require extra processing time to understand conversation. People with AS tend to be very literal in their use of language, and may misunderstand humor or sarcasm.

Cognitive: Good rote memory, but difficulty with problem-solving and drawing inferences. They have trouble "reading between the lines."

Social Skills: Lack of awareness of the unwritten rules of social conduct is characteristic of individuals with AS. They tend to be excessively blunt and honest. This makes them appear rude or obnoxious to others. They have difficulty making eye contact, which can make it appear to others that they are not listening. They are unaware of non-verbal or body language cues and facial expressions, so they have difficulty guessing the thoughts and feelings of others. They have limited understanding of emotions, both their own and others'. Individuals with AS have difficulty grasping the concept of personal space, and may impinge on the space of others without realizing that they are making others uncomfortable.

Many AS children lack the ability to have or show empathy towards others. They dont seem to have the ability to stand in the other persons shoes or take another persons perspective. For example, AS children may find it difficult apologizing to another child for hurting their feelings, trying to feel what another person feels, imagining they are somebody else (e.g. a convict settling in Australia), or how they felt during 9/11. AS children require help to recognize the effects of their actions on others and will need to be taught how to identify and respond to emotions appropriately.

Individuals with Asperger's Syndrome tend to be rigid in their thinking and assume that other people think the same as they do. They often have a strong need to follow a schedule and/or follow rules. They may respond badly to sudden changes, authoritarian behavior and anger from others.

Sensory responses: Individuals with ASD have unusual , often heightened responses to sensory stimuli. Loud noise and certain pitches may be painful. Hypersensitive hearing and an inability to screen out background noise may cause sensory overload or shutdown. Light touch that would not bother most people may be painful to the person with Asperger's. They may "over-react" to accidental or purposeful touching. They may be sensitive to light, and the flickering of fluorescent lights and computer screens may cause discomfort Strong odors can cause problems also.

Motor Skills: Both fine and gross motor skills can be affected. Handwriting, cutting, and drawing may be difficult, although some individuals are gifted artists. Ball-handling and other athletic skills are difficult for most people with AS. Because of these characteristics, people with AS tend to have high levels of anxiety. They often feel overwhelmed with sensory stimuli that are beyond their control and confused by social relationships that they don't know the rules for.

Do they have any strengths?

Individuals with AS usually have excellent rote memories. They can be very imaginative, and some become successful writers. One in 10,000 people in the general population has perfect pitch; among people with Autism Spectrum Disorders, the incidence is one in 20. Some individuals with AS are talented musicians, in spite of noise sensitivity. Because they are visual thinkers, they may be talented at design, drafting, and drawing. Some people with AS are gifted mathematicians and computer programmers.

Some Helpful Hints for Working with Someone with Asperger's Syndrome:

1. Respect his sensory sensitivities.

2. Don't sneak up behind him or try to startle him.

3. If he gets too close, calmly ask, "Would you please move back a step?"

4. Try to state differences of opinion calmly and without anger.

5. If he offends you, tell him that you were offended by what he said and tell him why.

6. If an exchange is getting too heated, take control by trying to exit. Suggest that perhaps you can discuss this topic again when you've both cooled down. Another good strategy is to "agree to disagree."

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requires workplaces to accommodate people with disabilities, but this is much more complex than putting in a lift for someone's wheelchair. Accommodating someone with Asperger's Syndrome requires that co-workers understand the disability, and it will require some effort and tolerance on your part. The talents that these individuals can contribute in the workplace make these efforts worthwhile.

Sorry all, but I think there IS a place in Boy Scouting for special needs boys. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a troop to take simple measures to make things work for a special needs boy.

Letting a boy see the schedule ahead of time, if available, to make him more comfortable. Making sure boys are treated fairly and are allowed to participate. Giving a boy some extra time and space to calm down or deal with the moment. I hope these aren't beyond the reach of the Boy Scout program, especially if the boy's parents are actively involved.

Hi SheriB,

I COMPLETELY understand your message and issues. My son, who will move up to Boy Scouts this March, also has Aspergers Syndrome (AS). Though his is somewhat mild, he still has lots of social issues, ticks off/pesters other kids, can't understand many social issues/interactions, and definitely has meltdowns, though these have decreased with age.

I also understand your description of AS as an "invisible disability". I've often told family and even his school's special ed team that he'd have been better off if he'd been blind rather than having AS, since people at least understand blindness. People tend to thing kids with AS are just jerks or obnoxious and either avoid them or make fun of them. Luckily my son is big for his age - he'll likely be 6'-6" by high school and he has been taking Tai Kwan Do for several years and is currently a purple belt [white-yellow-orange-green-blue-purple-red-black], so they hopefully won't physicaly hurt him, but the heartache of the social issues are just as painfull to him.

The first real sign of things to come came in the first few hours of the first day of his first Cub Scout Day Camp (the first Scout activity that I didn't attend) when I got a call telling me that my son was having real problems and to come and take him home. I arrived at lunch time and he seemed OK, so I kept him there and shadowed him. As the day progressed, he did indeed have meltdowns, but I was able to calm him down and give some guidance when necessary. Since then I have attended every day of Day Camp every year since then. As the years went on he was able to do more with less intervention, but he still had the meltdowns and needed guidance.

Over the Thanksgiving break this year (2005) we sent him (alone - well, with his younger sister) to a local YMCA day camp for a day, but when we picked him up the stories indicated he'd had a real bad day. Lots of problems with other kids. He tries to tell them what their "supposed" to do (rules are VERY important to him), argues with them - not understanding that they might be right, melts down when games don't go right or he doesn't win, and generally irritating to them because he keeps talking and talking and talking about stuff that they don't care about. I was VERY sad.

Just two hours ago he came home from a second try at the very same camp (hoping he can go there this summer, since both my wife & I work), and he had a GREAT day. There's hope!!

My plan is to continue to shadow him as a registered BS leader. I'll attend meetings, campouts, and other activities and try to stay back as much as possible. I'm not sure how to shadow him when he's with his patrol. My plan is to have a talk with the Patrol Leader (PL) and the Scoutmaster and ask the PL to get me if something isn't going well. He'll be in the patrol with at least three boys who were in his Cub Scout den and have known him for many years, so I hope that helps too. Mostly he just needs someone to calm him down when things don't go "right".

For the two-week summer camp, my plan is to attend that too. I'll do what I can to help keep him "OK". I"ll be there to make sure he is treated fairly. I don't know what else to do.

I know AS is tough on the other boys, and I know that the senior patrol leadership simply is not equipped to deal with the issues of AS. As I'm sure you know, there are a lot of people out there that feel AS doesn't even exist and that our boys are simply spoiled or misbehaving.

(Sigh) I'm just a dad doing the best that I can to give my son good experiences, make sure he's treated fairly, and keep him happy.

I wish you the best of luck for you and your boy.

Christmas gifts for my boy just moving up to Boy Scouts this coming spring:

Victorinox Climber Swiss Army Knife with yellow StayGlow handle - of course he'll have to earn his Toten Chip card before carrying with the Troop.

Eureka Backcountry Outfitter 4-person tent on major close-out (Eureka discontinued the model) - the troop he's joining suggests boys provide their own tents but does have a few loaners. I also ordered a set of replacement aluminum poles - figuring they'll be the first thing damaged. With a ground cloth.

Marmot Trestles 15 Long sleeping bag - on good sale from Campmor. My boy is going to be a looong one - likely 6' 6". I got one of these for myself too

He already has a Lexan mess kit (plate, bowl, utensils, mug), poncho (he's growing too fast for a rain suit right now), first aid kit (built with the den and added to over the years), water bottles, flashlight (several), whistle, and RidgeRest pad.

The pack will give him a nice compass (Suunto Leader M-3) and a Boy Scout Handbook for graduation.

We give our boys a compass and a hiking staff. The compass we've given the last three years is a Suunto Leader M-3 for $19.25 from http://www.forestry-suppliers.com.'>http://www.forestry-suppliers.com. It is really a first rate compass for the price.

The hiking staff was usually from the Scout Store, but this year we're thinking of buying ratan martial arts staffs, which are lighter and stronger.

I'm pretty sure the troop that they are joining this year will be giving them Boy Scout Handbooks.

As the den leader with the six boys moving up this year, I've been with these boys for five years, so I decided to personally giving them gifts too. Last year the den put together little survival kits (whistles, orange plastic bags, and small button-cell microlights). To add to that I will be giving them each a Magfire fire starter (a sparker - they each used one while working on firebuilding and they were quite impressed, $10) from http://www.magfireusa.com and a Suunto case for their compasses ($10.15) from http://www.forestry-suppliers.com.

Looking forward to next year's summer camp ...

How to you handle batteries for digital cameras over a two-week summer camp?

I have a Kodak camera that can run off of AA's but my beloved Nikon dSLR only uses rechargable batteries that may not last both weeks without recharging.

Ideas??

According to my calculations you'll be taking I-90/I-94 up through Wisconsin. If so, you'd probably be camping somewhere around Madison or the Dells area (Baraboo).

Look into camping at Devil's Lake State Park near Baraboo, WI. Lots of Scout groups camp there. It is a popular SCUBA diving/snorkeling lake. Here is a link: http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/parks/specific/devilslake/

If that is to busy (popular!) click on "Find a Park" on the same web site and you'll find other parks in the area.

There is also a Scout Camp a bit farther north near Oxford, WI that is run by the Three Fires Council. The camp is called Camp Freeland Leslie. Its not too out of the way. Here is a link http://www.threefirescouncil.org/Camping/cp_info.htm

meredelaire,

I agree with your position on tour permits. We figure that as long as parents drive their own boys to Go-See-Its, then no tour permit is required. That a tour permit is only required when the unit makes arrangements for boys to be driven by other parents/adults. Sometimes parents make private arrangements for their boy to tag along with another scout's parent, but since that is not planned/arranged by the unit, no tour permit is required for that either.

We don't assemble cars at a common point of departure. We simply tell people where to be at a specified time. I think if you assemble cars at a common point of departure and then leave for a common destination, this can be done without a Tour Permit ONLY if parents ONLY drive their own children.

Be careful with caravaning. The Transportation - Automobiles section of the "Guide to Safe Scouting" says "Do not travel in convoy.", though it is OK to have a common point of departure and a common destination.

I'd suppose that every boy, both young and old, dreams of the ability to survive and maybe even prosper using only his bare hands and the knowledge to utilize nature's bounty.

These skills are sometimes discussed on http://www.equipped.org - if you're interested.

Ken K.

To my knowledge there is no way to do it with just one boy. ScoutTrack can read files output by Packmaster, but it will read all the other boy's info too.

I think your best bet is to just sit down and crank it out by hand.

Some ideas:

>River Rock LED Lantern, $20 from Target (very cool!, very well built)

>River Rock 2AAA 0.5W LED Flashlight, $10 from Target (very well built flashlight!!)

>Princeton Tec EOS headlamp, $31 from brightguys.com (probably the best headlamp available right now)

>Underwater Kinetics 4AA eLED w/ switch flashlight, $26 from brightguys.com (10 hours of bright light plus 80 hours of diminishing light!!!)

>StayGlow Victorinox Swiss Army Climber Knife, $29 from knifecenter.com (bright yellow by day, actually glows in the dark at night - very cool!, funky enought that a boy would be fine w/ a yellow knife)

>KA-BAR/Dozier KA4066 3" Folding Spear Knife, $20 from knifecenter.com (GREAT knife for the cost, maybe best deal in knives today)

>GSI Outdoors Lexan 1-Person Tableware Set, $14 from Campmor.com (plate, bowl, knife, fork, spoon, cup)

>Therm-a-Rest Camplite Long Self-Inflating Mattress, on sale at $50 from Campmor.com

>Doug Ritter Personal Survival Pak, $25 from Campmor.com (EVERY outdoorsman should have one - read about it and a lot of other good info at equipped.org)

>MSR SimmerLite stove, $100 from campmor.com

>Magfire standard fire starter (sparker), $10 from magfireusa.com

>Book: "98.6 Degrees - The Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive" by Cody Lundin, $12 from Amazon.com (very informative interesting read about building a survival kit and staying alive when things go wrong)

both the Cub Scout Leader Book and the Webelos Leader Guide refer to Webelos camping as "Webelos Den Overnight Camping", which suggests that Webelos are limited to overnight camping - as opposed to multiple night camping.