johndaigler

b- You need to get over yourself. I'll put ten talented, qualified, knowledgeable Scout Leaders of any position into a room with any one of the Requirements and still come out with a minimum of 5 different understandings. The book is a tool. You don't get to say, "I read it this way and the rest of you are wrong." What qualifies as appropriate to any given Scout doesn't depend on the rule. It depends on the boy, the problem to be solved and the adults helping solve that problem. How dare you say to me or to any other Scouter that because I see the situation differently

BW - like I said I don't think there's right or wrong here and the difference between your "door" and my "hurdle" is, in the end, probably unnoticeable to a Scout who has made the journey all the way up to the Eagle project. A hurdle isn't a barrier, it's just a door at the top of the stairs. What I've intended all along is that we assess each Scout and each Project so as to set the door(hurdle) at the appropriate height to allow the Scout to meet the expectation of doing his best. The open door metaphor is perfect. I'm just not in favor of opening the door AND carrying the boy through.

boleta, and all you rule book readers, First, let's give each other credit for being able to read. Disagreeing with each other and judging each other don't have to be the same thing. We seem to have strayed from Noah's original question and into a debate over whether the "Requirements" should be read with Fundamentalist eyes. I'm not gonna try to prove you wrong about your reading of the rules. But, I do believe you're wrong if you think this, or any other, rulebook has no room for interpretation. If this organization's foundation is a rule book, than how do we account for,

It's all about Quality not gender. If we build good program, they will come. Some people will have pre-conceived ideas, but when you and your Cubs "wow 'em", nothing else matters. If you and your leadership get that, and work together to continue the quality program year after year, then Cubs, parents and others don't care if you're male, female or green!!

boleta - How can the 2004 "Requirements" supercede the ESLSPW when they specifically Require the Scout to use the ESLSPW?? From the ESLSPW>>>>> "The Requirement As stated in the Boy Scout Handbook: While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to your religious institution, school, or your community. (The project should benefit an organization other than the BSA.) The project idea must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your unit leader (Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, Venturing crew Adviso

If the Helipad is "ALREADY IN USE" (!!!!!!!!) then I'd disqualify the project on POOR PLANNING, but the challenge factor goes WAAAAAYYYYY UUUUUPPPP!!!!!!!!!

Eamonn - I know I'm focusing on the wrong part of your post, but the Eagle and his Dad painted a big circle and an "H"????? I guess I'm just thinking about this all wrong . . . I always thought the Eagle's project was kind of a culminating effort, displaying growth that only came with sincere effort and exploration in the variety of areas Scouting offers achievements, opportunities and experiences. I know it's not intended to showcase "Scout" skills, that's not what I'm saying. But if it can be planned in a day, and completed in a day . . . ? ? ? I know this is gonna sound r

BW - I'm not trying to disagree - especially about semantics or sarcasm - all I mean, is that, depending upon which resource, which interpretation, which "spirit and intent" we subsribe to, it might be difficult to suggest that any Eagle's project plan be redesigned or redirected. AND, that I was disappointed that ANY school didn't already have a flag pole and needed a Scout's help to realize they needed to put one up. IMHO, this Scout should be redirected.

To compare public schools to private school enterprises is a loooooong stretch. Use of the word "business" for both cases can't be seen to compare the two in any useful way. The fact that this Scout's "organization in need" doesn't have a flag pole speaks a great deal to the variety of private schools in this country. It seems hard to believe that we would see convincing a "school" that it needs a flag pole is worthy of being an Eagle Project. What, BTW, has this "school" organization been thinking up to this point?? I agree that the Scout needs to be redirected for his p

It looks like your son's behavior is a way of asking you to differentiate and separate your dual roles of scouting adult and father. His actions seem, to me, to be saying that he's looking for one and you keep taking the other. My suggestion to you is to "keep busy" Scouting with some of the other boys and let your son choose the Scouting he wants to share with you. Laurie's comment about asking her boy if it would be OK with him if she took on some Leadership responsibilities s

yeah, it seems to happen every now and then, but when a post is messed up it can stay that way for 5, 6, 7 edits. Gets a little frustrating. I've learned to copy all my posts before sending them, just so I'm ready to edit by pasting over the messed up one with a fresh copy. Good luck. jd

eisley - Where have we seen that the "dramatic" drop occurred after the policy change. Obviously, I haven't seen much about Canada's dilemma except right here. It seemed from the Globe and Mail article that the drop off was already happening before the change. I guess we'd have to look at year by year changes. I'm not arguing that the new policy didn't hurt their numbers, I'm just looking for info to create some perspective. I don't think you could argue that Zeiger's piece was inflammatory and hyperbolic. And, it's very possible, the Globe and Mail could be avoiding a key issue, but t

Hunt - I like it, though I think we 'd need to lengthen that list of yours a bit to create some extra room for personal choosing. We could definitely add the Scouting Heritage and Scouting Traditions ideas to your list. jd

FB, thanks for the weather report... I don't miss (the) little cat feet. NJCS, can ya keep up? jd

Trail Day, thanks for the link. Sad for Scouts Canada! Can someone speak to how much of this downsizing and property selling has BSA had to do?? We face many of the same issues as Scouts Canada. I know Schiff was sold (my Woodbadge Dad nearly cried). Going back to the original thread-creating-post,...it's interesting (and perhaps a defining point) that the "Globe and Mail" doesn't mention anything that resembles Mr. Zeiger's focus. Just because event B follows event A, doesn't mean that A caused B. Though, I'm sure, there are many Canadian Scouters disappointed in the

(Sorry for this , but I'm watching the Olympics!!!) A " 3m Synchronized Springboard" MB???? Where DO they invent these "unigue" sports???????????

(Since I tried 8 times, without success, to edit and correct my post, here it is as a whole . . .) agreed. Interesting that an American 19 yr.old feels so informed about and justified in his judgemental opinions of a private organization in another country. I wonder how he reacts when Canadians opinionate about BSA or YAF?!?!?!? I'd like to hear from a Canadian Scout or people who are closer to the subject - and hopefully less pre-agenda'ed. I'd be curious to hear the data about declining enrollment previous to the "opening of the gates" policy change. If you've seen

Grrrrrrrr...(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/08/12/batblitz/index.html Who knew that 25% of the mammals on this planet are . . . BATS!?!?!?!?!?!?! How about an "Animals of the Night" MB?

TX, I hope you didn't pony up the $3 they wanted for article access!! The article could be found in several other places with a little web-surfing! I didn't mean to come on too strong, but it felt to me that you were shootin fish in a barrel -- A sixteen year old saying something that makes our teeth grate?? Seems like an occupational hazard -- and a parental one!!!! The whole article was terribly biased and sarcastic - a disappointing (though not unusual) approach to selling newspapers. A little open-mindedness and respect might have made for a better, more informative, less i

Maybe. Or maybe, just a 16 yr. old kid who's getting asked a question by a strange adult with an agenda. Did he go out of his way to get this printed or was he just responding to some reporter asking, "Why is this better than Boy Scout Camp?" What kind of question do you think the reporter asked? What answer do you think the reporter was looking for? We've all seen enough with reporters to know that what's in print in not necessarily reality - particularly when it comes to word for word quotes. What's TXscoutdad doin, readin the St. Paul Pioneer Post? The next post is gonna be from

Thanks all. Can't say I'm not disappointed but I certainly understand several reasons why BSA would set such parameters. I just wish I had a clearer idea how to get a couple of these projects done. From what I've seen locally, there's a great deal of duplication of purchases for items rarely used yet not shared. This spends money that could better be spent elsewhere. And less practical, but maybe dearer to my heart, is a noticeable loss of songs and singing - campfires and elsewhere. (This message has been edited by johndaigler)

Interesting that a Scout's peers and organization aren't seen as a "community". Is that a written policy,(boleta- I see you included it as if it's written into policy. Or are those your words?) or an unwritten tradition? Helping a district or council full of scouts seems like a great way to help a community - even if it's indirect.

I'm not sure if there's a traditional process that I'm not following, but . . . I have a few ideas I'd like to share. My boys won't be working toward Eagle for years and there's a couple of things that I think would qualify as Eagle Projects that would be helpful sooner rather than later. Plus, I'm guessing that some scouts struggle with deciding on a good Eagle Project, though I'm not sure if there are standards that these ideas wouldn't meet. I'd like to hear your comments or share other ideas for Eagle Projects that you'd like to see some Scout attempt. 1)(There are probab

mk - Great post - right on target on every point!!!