hot_foot_eagle

If you do your background work in your den meetings, you can spend more time whittling on your campout.

Cubs familiar with firearm safety from council BB gun events and those familiar with fire safety from fire prevention week already know the tools not toys mantra, so you can use it to your advantage.

Like lots of folks, I started my den with soap carving. Very fresh soap works much better than soap with any age to it.

I found some popsicle stick-like doodads in the craft section of our local big box retailer. These were larger and thicker than popsicle sticks and made good training knives. We "sharpened" our training knives with sandpaper on a block of wood, just like real knives are sharpened.

I teach sharpening basics when I do whittling chip also (with pocketknives, not just the wooden ones). I don't expect them to get it 100% right, but by understanding how much practice it takes to sharpen a knife well, they also seem to take better care of the knives they use. For some reason my guys were fascinated by my whetstones.

Thanks all for the input so far.

To clarify a bit, there are no other troops in practical commuting distance for my family, at least.

Spelunking is overnight in commercial or gov't caves on "scout" tours and not high adventure exploration.

Appropriateness of activities includes (in my book) adequate adult training and supervision. Canoeing is OK with reasonable care, but can be an inappropriate activity without proper supervision, for example.

In my mind I've distilled the pros an cons something like this:

+ T1 outdoor program conforms to my ideal scouting program

- T2 program is more like a church youth group

+T2 boy led. Not well guided by adults perhaps, but boy led

-T1 adult led.

-T1 bullying "tolerated"

-T2 no interest in training or participation beyond local

Cubmaster Randy asked where I'd want my boys to go. To be quite honest, I don't think the group would do well at one or the other. Taken individually, I'd steer some one way and some the other based on program alone, even if I don't personally like the youth group approach.

My own son needs the outdoor program, but not the adult-led nonsense. I'm not worried about my son being bullied - he's friendly with everyone and knows how to conduct himself - but the fact that it's not addressed raises a red flag. Some of the other Webelos could easily become victims. Some might become bullies themselves.

No, I'm not going to be in a position to lead change for a while. Not as an ASM, at any rate.

Fortunately I've got some time before we cross over to work on this. I appreciate the perspectives you all have been giving. I'd like to influence some positive change without ruffling any feathers.

Man Scouts. I know the species, but didn't know they had a name. I'll be chuckling about that for days!

Adited to add: Lesser of two evils seemed like the best common phrase to express the dilemma, even if neither choice is truly evil. I'm a glass-is-twice-as-big-as-it-needs-to-be kinda guy.

(This message has been edited by hot_foot_eagle)

Background:

There are basically two troops that my Webelos Den can cross over to in my area. We are beginning to visit these troops as a den to complete AOL requirements, but also to give the boys and their parents a real choice in how they want to continue their scouting experience.

So far some of the things I see alarm me.

Troop #1 is very young with a few older scouts, but has a fairly strong outdoor program. They do what I consider to be traditional scouting activities: canoeing, backpacking, spelunking, etc. They are well-financed and routinely have scouts attend high-adventure activities like Philmont and SeaBase.

Troop #1 is adult led, with the adults fairly active in the district anc council. I have some credible reports that there has been some hazing between boys(I would use the word bullying as the situations were described to me). The bullying has gone on with adult leaders turning a blind eye to it.

Troop #2 is smaller and less well financed, but has broader range in ages of boys. Their outdoor program includes some traditional outdoor activities, but also does paintball, goes to amusement parks, and similar activities, some of which are not appropriate (according to the G2SS).

Troop #2 is boy-led. They are probably too new to have been involved in much high adventure yet, but have gone out of council at least once for summer camp (which I view as a beneficial experience for both boys and leaders). The adult leadership is not active in district or council activities.

I know some of the questions I want to ask the leaders of each troop, but I'd like some outside observations on this choice between the lesser of two "evils."

What I am less sure of is what to tell the parents about the pros and cons of each troop. They are not generally knowledgeable about the details of the scouting program, and I don't want to turn them off of the program. On the other hand, well, they need to know.

What are your thoughts?

"at the Position of Parade Rest in front of the Garrison Sergeant Major" could be translated as getting sent to the principal's office - X 10.

If you've ever seen the stereotypical movie drill sergeant dressing down a recruit you've got the picture.

Sticking to one's beliefs, even when in the minority, can be admirable. If we don't consider other viewpoints, though, we become vulnerable. What if we ARE wrong?

We have to continually look beyond ourselves to make sure we're still relevant.

Can you imagine how popular scouting might be if no one looked beyond their little fiefdom and we were still wearing wool tunics and jodhpurs?

I'm convinced that the arguing is good.

One of my patrol members was (is) new to scouting - really new. He got quite a bit out of the program. Having never been a part of scouting before, he learned how troops and patrols are supposed to function. Because he doesn't really know any other way for them to operate, he's on the right track for the rest of his scouting career.

On the other hand, he was baffled by some of the techniques, terms, etc., that most of us take for granted. A few people like my friend could attend WB with little or no experience and really benefit from it, but that's probably an exception and not a rule.

Got a holiday seasonal catalog from BSA Supply Group today that includes XGO-BSA poly underwear to go with your switchbacks. Official BSA underwear has arrived. I can't wait for the reaction from the uniform police!

One of my WB patrol members had an analogy: it's hard to describe fried chicken (scouting program), and even harder to describe really good fried chicken. Our first taste of fried chicken usually winds up being the standard by which all others are compared, and you may never even bother to try anything different. Wood Badge is a gold standard of scouting. Whatever your scouting experience, you will come away with some new perspectives and ideas on what you are doing right, and what you are doing wrong.

Wood Badge is, on its face, a leadership seminar. If you've served in the armed forces, been to management school, or participated in other leadership seminars, you'll be in familiar territory. Many scouting volunteers don't have those experiences, and getting it from Wood Badge is a plus.

Among other things, I came away understanding how my personal strengths could be better used to serve my scouting community. My pack will be better off as a result of my ticket items. (And the ticket is just a start. I have bigger ideas for down the road, now.)

To top it off, I met a bunch of great men and women who will be my peer group through the next generation or three of scouts. Not that the old timers are leaving anytime soon, but now there's a new crop of go-to people that I can count on when I need advise, information, etc.

The program is not perfect, but I'm still learning from it as I reflect on what we went through. I wasn't quite sure if I made the right choice when I plunked down my money, but I have no regrets now. I figure my total cost was around $1000 counting tuition, supplies, travel, and lost wages.

There's a big time commitment on top of the two weekends, so make sure you're prepared for that.

Without knowing you personally, I cant say 100% that you should go, but I suspect from the way you phrased your question that it going would be worthwhile.

If you're really lucky, they'll make you a Bobwhite.

It's your money, Eamonn. If you think the Council needs it, tell them EXACTLY how you want it spent and you don't have to worry about it being squandered.

A few random thoughts on the subject(s):

Anyone can be sued for anything. Getting a judgement is another matter, but you're still going to need a lawyer, and that's going to cost money.

Many lawsuits are filed using the shotgun approach. Some of us are going to be in the pattern, so to speak.

There is no substitute for a solvent defendant. As much as they pay us to lead this scouting stuff, we ain't it (Most of us, anyway. Certainly not me.)

An umbrella policy is not particularly expensive and covers much more than just scouting activities. For many people it's probably not a bad idea.

If you've done your homework, take your responsibilities seriously, and don't act stupid, you can sleep at night and not worry about these things.

In harmony with eolesen. . .

If you feel a parent is impaired and has been driving (or will be driving) you should call local law enforcement and let them make the determination. If there is an underlying medical condition, the partent may well be impaired by that, even if they aren't under the influence of alcohol.

Endangering a child or children like this is not too different from child abuse and should be reported to the appropriate agencies and scout hierarchy just like a child had evience of physical abuse.

I don't think it's your responsibility to confront the parent directly if you don't want to. You're the only one who can determine if that's appropriate. I do feel that the situation is clear-cut enough to require action on your part, though.

I like your plan and would encourage you to go for it. If anyone is offended, call it a Turk's Head Knot and drive on.

It''s certainly possible for a young man to gain enough maturity to know he wants to complete his Eagle. It''s equally possible that mom and or dad is the sole source of "motivation". I say encourage the late bloomers, but the onus is on them to follow through.

Since Cub Scouts use the frontcountry guidelines, cleaning up any outdoor area - parks, roadways, vacant lots, etc. would be an appropriate conservation project.

Somewhere I have seen a list of other project ideas for Cub Scouts, but I can''t find it at the moment.

My council accepts BALOO, OWL, or VOLT for Cub Scout leaders'' outdoor training prerequisite for Wood Badge.

I''m in a pretty small district so my experience may be somewhat different than in other areas, but our DE is actively involved in the recruiting process from providing handouts to speaking to elementary school boys about Cub Scouting to participating in roundups. These activities, roundups in particular, are conducted by volunteers, but our DE plays a role.

I''m blessed with a great DE so I wouldn''t want it any other way.

In outdoor settings we request that all electronics be left at home or in vehicles (adults cell phones excluded for emergency use, but I like ''em turned off or on silent mode).

I''ve always allowed an exception to the no electronics rule for plasma TV''s larger than 50", provided I also have control of the remote. So far no one has exercised the option.

Our council is signing up as well. After having a long talk, I have signed my oldest son and myself up. He''s so excited that he''s socking all his mowing money away so he can go. Not bad for Webelos scout!

I went to AP Hill in 1981. If 2010 is the last at AP Hill, it will have that much more significance for us. Of course my youngest son will be old enough to go to the one after that. . .

It only takes one: the guy with knots on his uniform shirt that run from the pocket, under the epaulet, and halfway down the back of his shirt - because he knows the whole world revolves around him!

An interesting discussion so far. I''d like some clarificaton please:

GaHillBilly said:

"But fundamentally, to revere means to acknowledge your inferior station (in the sense that a knight acknowledges his vassal state before the king) and the superior station of that which you revere."

I think my sticking point is "inferior station"? If one is awed, say, by the Grand Canyon is it possible to revere nature as a god? the universe? I wonder if such a non-personified god might result in a revealed religion of sorts, or would that just be made up?

On the original topic, though, I strongly believe that young boys and girls are capable of quite a bit more than society would like us to believe. I understand that the story of Davy Crockett killing a bear when he was only three is just a legend, but it''s not all that far off the mark, either. Granted the world of today is much more complex in many respects and much simpler in others (do you really worry all that much about survival in your everyday life?) but I think the abilities are still there.

I see glimpses of real maturity all the time in scouting - even among cub scouts. If it''s possible to cultivate these qualities, I can''t think of another program that would work better - that is if we remember that we are supposed to be guides, not another set of parents.

On patrol yells: Most patrol yells are, IMO, too long. Demonstrate the proper use off hooah (oo-rah in your case?)and I think they''re more likely to come around.

Regardless of how the requirement is taught, the skill is important enough to warrant reinforcement as often as the opportunity presents itself. At Webelos resident camp I would point out poison ivy nearly every time I saw it, and also point out other plants commonly mistaken for it while explaining the differences. While I would hope that the boy leadership would be able to teach and verify this skill in a troop, I don''t think that an adult leader should be discouraged from doing it either.

SSScout, I too worked a while on a survey party. What is it with the unwritten rule that property corners and points on line must be placed in poison ivy thickets? I itch just thinking about the weed.

If the National Cathedral has already been mentioned I overlooked it. Arrange for a tour because it's impossible to absorb all the symbolism by yourself.

I'd also vote for Arlington National Cemetery and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

Kudu's point about a little subterfuge is well made. I recently took a number of cub scouts on a hike in Southern IL, but had a turnout far below what I had hoped. In retrospect I probably scared off boys and parents because I used the word hike.

They boys who went had one of those "wow" moments when we stepped out of the woods and onto the cliffs (it's quite unlike our topography at home). So many of them ask me when we're going back that I think I could get those guys to hike anywhere now. You can bet they'll be the best advertising for our next hike - er, adventure.

For what it's worth, my very first campout as a boy scout was a 6 mile in-town night hike to a camporee. My troop went backpacking and we were expected to go. It wasn't until I became an adult that I discovered that scouting was done any other way.