hot_foot_eagle

I recently talked to someone from BSA supply who stated that they are well aware of the fit issues and are making appropriate changes, as well as some other minor tweaks to the switchbacks. I've speculated that the current 2 for 1 sale may be clearing the warehouses for the improved version.

You can tell how much camping experience a boy has by how clean he is.

Corollary: an inexperienced camper's dirtiness is inversely proportional to how much fun he's having.

Go to any scout gathering and betweem careers and hobbies you will find enough combined talent and knowledge to do almost anything imaginable.

I understand that there are to be some minor revisions to the switchbacks to address sizing problems and some fabric pilling. It is possible that they are making room for the improved version - not that the present ones aren't already a great improvement over the de la Rentas.

But what's the right answer to the Buddhist scout, for example, who doesn't believe in a god in the way that Judeo-Christian faiths do?

What if a scout believes in gods - is there still a right answer?

The best solution I've seen so far is to ask how a scout shows reverence. Perhaps "Do you believe in God?" could come up during the course of the conversation, but as a lead-in question to the issue of reverence it comes off as too confrontational.

There are a very few scouts in my area that aren't Christian, and I worry that they won't get a fair shake at their EBOR, if only because a well-intentioned board might not have a broad enough perspective or be open-minded enough to accept that some faiths are very different from Christianity, and that the job of the EBOR is not to determine a faith's "acceptability" through the lens of of the DRP.

Because the difficult cases are rare, it's difficult to find the solutions within our local networks.

The standard line for us is "talk to the SE." Input (official or not) from a forum like this is just as productive, and likely to generate more points of view.

TAHAWK got me to wondering and I found this:

From Scouting.org: "Buddhist youth have participated in Scouting for more than 80 years. Since 1920, with the formation of Troop 4 by the Fresno Buddhist Church, young Buddhists in America have enjoyed the benefits of Scouting."

The BSA was just 10 years old at the time! Did this relationship develop as a misunderstanding by BSA about the nature of Buddhism, or were they more enlightened (no pun intended) than today's red-state conservatives in interpreting "reverence"?

How would a Buddhist scout answer the question "Do you believe in God?" correctly at a BOR?

I had the chance to talk to a professional from supply a few weeks ago and share my thoughts on the switchbacks, positive and negative.

The intel:

Supply is well aware of the fabric and sizing issues.

The fabric spec is likely to change (very soon) to address pilling.

Sizing is being addressed as well. Some scouts and scouters have had luck with womens' sizes due to the difference in cut. Not a guarantee, but might help a few folks, so pass it on.

No timetable yet on the "new" uniform, but it is coming. Would they be likely to have everyone in the new for the 2010 Jamboree, or just unveil it there?

The S2's are the in thing. Old style cub pants are going to be discontinued if they haven't been already. Look for markdowns/clearance pricing on the old style.

The troop I grew up in had ECOH's as the culmination of the regular COH. We had a set program which was customized somewhat for each scout's needs. I never knew ECOH's were handled any other way until I became an adult.

I had my EBOR the day before I went off to college (6 months shy of my 18th birthday). I think even then that I realized the Eagle was about the journey and not the milestone. I had new mountains to climb with college and the Army. I have more regret about not having the ECOH now than when I was a boy - this coming from someone who would have skipped HS and college graduation and did skip graduation for my second undergrad degree and for grad. school with no regrets.

Why not test the waters here and there? Not full time for now, but try something new and see if it reignites your passion. Perhaps you will find a niche that engages you.

I think everyones' batteries need recharging once in a while and yours may just be a little lower than usual.

I think combined activities are a great idea.

My pack hosted a smaller and newer pack at a family campout about two years ago. The smaller pack's leaders had the needed training, but didn't feel 100% confident about camping "on their own." The campout was a great success.

I'm looking to invite an inner-city pack that doesn't have much of an outdoor program on an outing or two in the spring when the weather warms up.

I can see some logistical benefits and challenges (food, transportation, independent tour permits), but it's nothing that can't be worked out with some careful planning. As long as no one winds up taking advantage of someone else's adult leadership, it should be a great opportunity of boys and adults.

On a semi-related note, we have our own PWD track and regularly share it with other packs, but we've never considered a combined event due to our pack's size.

Yes, the progress toward ranks will cover a patch on the rigt pocket, but it's OK to wear both. My boys typically take those devices off outside of pack meetings so they don't get torn off. (Not to veer too far off topic, but make sure your progress toward ranks device is of post-recall manufacture).

The plastic holders you refer to are available in several shapes and sizes, though I've never seen one the size of the World Conservation Award.

Way back in the 80's when I was an ROTC cadet we weren't even allowed to "wear" a civilian backpack on campus while in uniform. The same uniform rigidity applied to socks, glasses, etc. So while the article seems to be about personal gear, it really represents a fundamental shift in policy.

On another note, I took some Webelos to a camporee this past weekend and noticed a large number of scouts wearing switchbacks during times that they would have ordinarily not been in uniform. I didn't see the first pair of de la Rentas on anyone younger than 30.

I believe that the "if you build it they will come" approach will work equally well with the rest of the uniform, military inspiration or not. Functional attractive uniforms will be accepted and worn.

While the military seems to be allowing some personal freedom, the basics are not modified. For example, you won't catch anyone wearing unit insignia on their right sleeve unless they've earned it. Of course there's a regulation for that, but the culture is really what enforces it. Our approach should be the same; we need to be sticklers about the things that matter, and not lose any sleep over the things that don't.

How much do we spend on legal defense of our present position? It might be better spent attracting customers instead of driving them away.

How big a PR hit do we take as an organization every time the subject comes up in the news?

How much money would be available to further our goals if we chose not to restrict membership?

The idea of unrestricted membership for youth is worth exploring. How better to demonstrate to youth that acceptance is achievable. One might also consider it an opportunity to minister to youth without proselytizing. I've never seen the point in preaching to the converted, anyway.

I think the issue is that this was a good kid and the kind of boy we would be proud to have as a scout - except for the part about him being an atheist.

Assume for the sake of argument that he stepped right out of a Norman Rockwell painting. He has volunteered to serve his country on missions, whether righteous or immoral, where he can reasonably expect to be in mortal danger. What more would he have to do to become "the best kind of citizen"? That's the rationale we espouse, is it not?

I'm beginning to wonder if the true reason for the DRP is "because we can" and not because we should.

Trevorum:

I think your idea is great.

The most important aspect is the planning process you described. Even if you don't get 100% participation in the actual exercise, or if you get some cheating, you will still accomplish something worthwhile.

Two days without electricity isn't really that big a deal, but it should be enough to get people thinking and asking important questions.

OGE,

My wife confirms that Girl Scouts go to camp for two weeks (don't know what age they start) and do not go as troops.

Give me a few more years and I'll know when they start for sure, since my girls are already interested in scouting after being drug around to their brothers' activities.

"Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball or dye) at any individual is unauthorized." Indirect fire (including mortar fire and Howitzers) is perfectly acceptable.

(Tongue planted firmly in cheek.)

Success breeds success.

If you can only get 5 boys to go climbing - take 'em! When they get back, stoked from the excitement and their accomplishments, they will be the best advertisement for the next climbing trip. Make sure they have some photographic evidence of their adventure to drive the point home.

My troop did this regularly when I was a boy. We opened conventions at least monthly, presented the colors, and frequently led 1000+ people in the pledge of allegiance. I remember working very hard to make everything right, but no one ever complained. I found out later that we would receive honoraria of $100-$500 almost every time we went which no doubt provided camperships, uniforms, etc. as well as equipment for the troop.

A troop near me has started doing colorguards as well with great success. They have help from an ex-marine (yes I know, Once A Marine. . ., but he's too young to say retired) who not only served on the honor guards at the White House and Pentagon, but also trained marines for those jobs. Talk about sharp. Those boys received high compliments after presenting at the Memphis Grizzlies. I understand that several vets sought them out during and after the game to tell them what a great job they did.

I still have a dream of putting together a colorguard in reproduction 1910 uniforms for the 100th anniversary. It's on the back burner for the moment, but I have several leaders and boys who really like the idea.

Before the PC set jumps in and says "but Boy Scouts aren't supposed to do military drill", let me add that it has always been OK if the boys ask to do it. When I've taught boys to drill it's always been great fun. It doesn't take boys long to get it down well enough that they can teach and coarch each other.

I think the classic scout knives were made by the now-defunct Camilus (sp?) knofe company, which would explain the change in design.

I'm surprised how many people get out into the world without basic "survival" skills. The only thing man should be without women is scarce (and vice versa; women should know how to take care of "man things" too).

Scouting goes a long way toward giving boys the tools they need, and it's one of the many reasons I devote so much time to the boys.

Beavah's comment about eagle wannabes got me wondering: does a lack of an eagle knot correlate with manscoutness, and if so, is WB a catalyst or just a natural progression of the disease in these individuals?

The "outdoor program" weekend was a bit of a letdown. If WB is going to be about leadership and the methods of scouting, fine, if it's going to be an advanced outdoor skills seminar, that's fine too. But the way it's integrated into the grand scheme of things, it doesn't do much more than the cub scout morning.

Yet another good ole BOBWHITE!!

Thanks to all who have replied.

We're going to visit several more meetings/outings as a den before parents and Webelos visit on their own, so the issue isn't over by any means.

My son has declared in no uncertain terms that he wants to join Troop #1. (I've been careful not to speak of my concerns around him or the other boys because their impressions are worth more without my biases).

I think ultimately that both troops can change over time, so in the long term my concerns may be addressed, whether or not I'm there. In the meantime, we'll work with what we have.

I do think that I'll talk to the parents about the strong and weak points of each troop after soliciting their observations. I hope they will make a decision with their sons about what's right for them, and don't just follow my son and me blindly.

Special thanks to Beavah for reminding me that it's really all about the positives, and for fgoodwin's suggestion of option #3. Our sparsley populated neck of the woods is, unfortunately, too small to support another troop without severly damaging the existing programs. If that were to happen, all the boys would lose out.

I'm sure I'll have a chance to share some new boy scout adventures soon enough.

Backing up a bit, BrentAllen said, "Most of the Troops are chartered by churches, so the Chartered Organization Reps (the only members who have a vote at Council) are, for the most part, members of churches. "

So just thinking out loud, I can't imagine why evangelical Christian churches (even conservative ones)would be keen to exclude atheists that might be saved through scouting and consequent exposure to worship. Not that evangelical Christian churches are the only CO's, but I think the point is clear enough.

Couple that thought with this: I understand the statement where BSA used the term "best kind of citizen" and am at least empathetic with the position. I might have been able accept it on its face but for a gravestone I saw in a national cemetery with an atheist symbol (logo?) on it. I thought to myself, "Just what more could I possibly ask of this citizen?"

So no, I don't agree 100% with BSA policies. I think the DRP is paradoxically un-Christian and wastes precious resources via legal defense and damage control marketing.

I find my situation a bit like an American soldier sent to fight a war he doesn't believe in. The volunteer soldier fights, but he votes his conscience when and how he can.