hicountry

For those who like this sort of thing and are going....great, have a wonderful time doing what you are chosing to do.

To me, these Jambo's are disconected from what scouting means to me....local camping and hiking and learning in the local troop with your friends, being thrifty but having great fun and adventures. Expensive, scout oriented disneyland type trips are not what scouting is about to me.

We never brought up Jambos in our troop, boys are having a load of fun with our active program, no family we have is ready to come close to considering these outrageously priced events.

Me personally, I hate crowds, lines, hassles, high costs, hype and canned entertainment so I wouldn't attend even if offered to me for free. Rather go camping locally and have a great time with the troop in the outdoors in a more quiet and hassle reduced fashion.

The YPT is not the problem, the mandatory IOLS is. The troop I was SM with is great with helpfull parents registering on the committee, they take YPT online no problem and help not only on committee but pinch hit with driving kids to and from campouts, assisting with merit badges, advancements and sometimes staying on campouts, Some actually are really ASM's with the troop in function. They are becoming knowledgeable about and supportive of the program and are enjoying seeing this part of their boys development in life.

Forced Manadatory IOLS is not going to hurt the troop but is changing behaviors. SM is a 20 year experienced camper and white water guide, he took IOLS last fall but it was a complete waste of his time, just so he could check the box. One ASM is also taking the IOLS this month but it will amount to teaching a master chef how to make ice cubes....another check off the box and waste a weekend situation.

I had been asked if I would stay on as an ASM and might have but having to waste my time taking a course on what I already know and had been doing well for years was the deciding factor in walking way, same with one of my ASM's, a 1967 Eagle with much BSA and camping experience....when he heard about manadatory IOLS, he felt it was ridiculous and has dropped from the troop as well.

Some of the parents registered as CM's were interested in actually becoming ASM's, dads with a lot of camping experience and former scouts but due to IOLS they registered as CM's but are functioning as ASM's as far as the troop is concerned.

We have an acknowledged issue on declining numbers in scouting, youth today having a poor perception of scouting, scouts that would NEVER wear the uniform to school and avoid letting other kids know they are involved with Scouts. Add to that the perception by the public about scoutmaster pedophiles.

And having it get around that some scouts and scouters might wear kilts (ie: Skirts, the things normally found on WOMEN in the USA) is going to.....

A. Justify and amplify the perception by other kids and the public that scouting is out of touch, gay, wierd, nerdy, something they wouldn't be involved in.....

B. Something cool

If you picked B, you may need a reality check.

We have an acknowledged issue on declining numbers in scouting, youth today having a poor perception of scouting, scouts that would NEVER wear the uniform to school and avoid letting other kids know they are involved with Scouts. Add to that the perception by the public about scoutmaster pedophiles.

And having it get around that some scouts and scouters might wear kilts (ie: Skirts, the things normally found on WOMEN in the USA) is going to.....

A. Justify and amplify the perception by other kids and the public that scouting is out of touch, gay, wierd, nerdy, something they wouldn't be involved in.....

B. Something cool

If you picked B, you may need a reality check.

I found myself evolving along with my boys, now that they have aged out and are in college I have changed to the point where I have a tuff time relating to 6-10 year olds. Even in my last year as SM, I found it harder to continue to try and recruit relating to 10 yo Webelose as my boys were 17 and almost 18. I couldn't imaging becoming involved in CUBS again, my life has moved on and even though we have great meories of my boys and theri friends in CUBS that is so far int eh rear view mirror I can no longer relate.

Burnout.....still enjoying the free time I have since I finished being a scouter.

Drama....no more issues with parents, teh drama, popcorn, funds, politics, unrelaible people, difficult people, volunteers who don't do theri job or not enough volunteers etc.

God bless those folks who are scouters for 10 or 20 years you hear about, I don't know how they do it. I can't imageine going back to cubs after my kids have moved on to life after scouting.

Stigma......I wouldn't want to be a scouter involved in a pack wh's kids are now adults, while the contribution seems nice, it is sort of creepy and in this day and age of child abuse perceptions I wouldn't want o touch it myself.

I know our troop has never filled out one of these applications since at least 1992 and maybe before that and no one ever called, emailed or slapped anyone's hand for not filling them out. Our troop does run on a budget, does sell popcorn, does have an FOS presentation and makes donations and does not keep a lot of excess funds in the account. We never have run any fundraisers that are "off color" or effect anyones business either so we are good stewards of those aspects listed in the fundraising app. I know some units have issues with funds, we haven't and feel it isn't Council's business what we have in the treasury etc and we do feel some of the questions are intrusive.

We have had on occasion, great fundraising opportunities come our way, ones the parents, and scouts really wanted to do and there was a need to fill in the community, we would have been foolish not to take advantage of these opportunities. There is always some place to use the money, one in particular offset considerable fuel expenses to summer camp that year and also re-equipped the troop's worn out stove and other aged cooking gear.

I don't see what dressing up in fake Indian gear (I've never seen anything that looks like the native dress of any particular tribe in any of our OA events) and doing fake drumming and fake dances has to do with Boy Scouts, being an honor society, or giving service to others.

"Just seems like very valuable and hard-to-come-by time is being spent pretending we are Indians or that we are somehow special and accepted as part Indian or Indian like (no, we're not, folks. Get real)... wouldn't this time be better spent working on other things that are so frequently brought up on these forums?

With everyone claiming youth and adults have little time to do scouting at all, am I really going to drive my son to a scout camp so he can make a fake headgear with some overweight white guy who is absolutely not an an athropologist or native historian and then fake dance around a fire or do fake ceremonies? No, I'm not going to do that. That's insane. "

There has been a focus developed on this thread concerning historical and cultural accuracy but my observation as a former unit leader, the debate on accuracy is a distant second to what the boys think.

Being boy driven and all, the boys make program and patrol decisons, troop direction and most importantly individual decisions, their opinions and observations on OA dance teams don't reflect a concern about accuracy. What their opinions and observations do reflect, almost universally, is that the Indian Dance OA stuff is super lame. The Webelos 1 and below seem to think it's neat, Webelos 2 start to think it's a little "babbyish", Boy scouts from 11 on up think it is outdated, very lame and it is a big turn off from having anything to do with OA. Thier observation isn't that they would like it if it was accurate, they just think it is plain nerdy, hokey and out of touch.

I'm sure kids probably thought the Indian Dance stuff was really cool in the sixties when shows like Gunsmoke and Bonaza were huge hits on TV and the American West was still popular and visible in American Culure but that was 4 or 5 decades ago. If OA wants to attempt to appear relevant and maybe slow it's decline in membership, perhaps it's time to change up this part of OA.

Solution seems simple to me....if this guy wants to play games and add in requirements and restrictions that aren't there, one has to get creative and play along. Hve the parents donate to son Eagle candidate, have him tell the SM that he earned the money mowing lawns, washing cars, shoveling snow, babysitting etc....scout raised the money doing chores on his own. This should shut up the blowhard and get the project done.

Yeah, I know we are going to get a scout is honest replies, but when you are dealing with an idiot, why take the past of most resisitence in solving a problem that didn't need to be created to begin with. The SM is wrong here and creating un needed burdn on getting an Eagle project done, why risk getting the Eagle project done before turning 18 if you are going to try and play by the rules that are not even there in the first place. Tell him what he wants to hear and get teh project completed.

Warning Label on a Hand Held Hair drier.....

"Warning, do not use this on a wet Bobcat"

How many here remeber the thread that was going around here about a year back debating if BSA's rules and regulations were taking the fun out of scouting and introducing un-needed hassle for Scouters, that the rules were taking some of the fun out of scouting and similar topics. I think this situation on this thread supposts those of us who feel....Yes...BSA is doing harm to the program in the ways mentioned by total nonsense such as these tool rules.

Anyone car to guess when camping will be forbidden as the risk to animal and bug bite,s drwoning, sunburn, burning oneself on a cookstove rc are too dangerous and now banned activities. We'll have to use powerpoint type learning interfaces as one risks paper cuts when using an actual Scout Handbook.

Denver Area council has apparently gone to mandatory IOLS for the unit leader to have registered with the Feb. 2012 recharter. Our SM had to cancel off a troop campout due to having to go to IOLS in order to be able to recharter and it created a mess. He has 20 years whitewater, camping and backpacking experience and sometimes as a guide, IOLS was a complete waste of his time. We have heard Denver Council will require all SM's and ASM's to have IOLS in order to charter in 2013, our troop has a couple of people with IOLS and a number of active adults withourt it but with loads of camping experience. In 2013 there will only be a few ASM's registered with the troop but a lot of "Committee Members".

Fortunately Denver Council doesn't require a tour plan for non high adventure campouts in Council so that doesn't become an issue for us.

Let me get this right...still shaking my head....

You want a volunteer to help teach woodbadge and you want that person to cough up $200 plus for the priveledge of taking a a weekend or more of their time providing you basically free labor ? Sounds like a double negative incentive to me. I think I'd take the road of, no thanks, I'll keep my time to use as I see fit and byt he way, in so doing will save a couple hundred bucks in the bargain....no brainer to me.

When I travel or am in all day company trainings the company who I work for salary compensates my meals, ledging etc or provides lunch at the seminar. So when I am volunteering....ie NOT working for pay I am expected to pay to work ? And the council making a profit on this is the salt in the wound. Bet they get a lot of NO THANKS from people who would otherwise help staff this stuff.

I recall threads here or elsewhere a year or two back trying to establish that Eagle Scout projects were being done outside the sphere of the unit or scouting, that it was a stand alone effort between the scout and the benficiary. Seems like the additional rules, forms and requirements are leaning toward establishing the EP is within the sphere of scouting, at least the way I see it (And always did see it).

There has been debate here and on another thread about covering food and drink for volunteers on EP's, I beleive plenty have made their cases, mostly for it's justification so I won't add to that. My point being, if some district or council adds to the requirements and basically throws small road blocks in a scouts way, it may be a bigger waste of time, energy, relationsips and resources to fight them. Play the game they are un-necesarily creating and only tell them what they want to hear, don't sweat the small stuff.

If your scout has a project that is budget for $450 and he creates that money via donations from relatives, neighbors, kicks in money he made doing odd jobs whatever, make the reported funds match the budgeted cost and don't mention food or drinks for the napoleans in your council who made up the extra rule on fundraised money toward food. The money aunt Aggness or Uncle Harold or Johnny scout provided for $60 that is beyond the $450 budget for is ignored, food is bought and provided for volunteers and no mention of the $60 or food is put on paper. The folks at your council making up and adding to requirements are kept quiet, you and your scout save tiime fighting with them, the project gets done and everyone is happy.

Our scouts don't really need one more place or opportunity and they haven't been interested and to try and pull it off with our logisitcs is a hassle we know by experience it won't happen. I know the local reps trying to push OA would like to think they know better than us our issues and people but they don't, no matter how they wish things were different in our unit just so it suits THEIR purposes.

The problems all over the country getting troops and scouts interested, to join or to stay even to their ordeal, the sash n dashers etc all confirm our suspicions that OA doesn't have enough to offer for us to push it.

The troop program, NYLT, RAMS, merit badge colleges and other offerings we choose to support from distict or council do. It is a cafeteria menu and we have no obligation to eat every single thing on the buffet and push everyone in our group that they have to try every single thing. Life has choices, out troop takes some and not others, that's all.

This whole concept of "your troop needs to support OA, why aren't you supporting OA, you just must not understand, not doing OA is not an option etc" gets annoying and is a real turn off. That's probably why a lot of troops take the "we don't do OA" response and they don't owe anyone any reason. Probably why a lot of troops just don't respond, tired of hearing the same thing, same program and the same push, they are done with it.

Thank the lord someone is taking their time to try and run a good troop as an adult volunteer, they don't owe anything to anyone to add their sidetrack program into their program if they are running nicely. It's like the vacume cleaner salesman at the door, never mind you already have a similar product that works great and you and the wife are happy with it, he just HAS to keep trying to sell you even when the door is closing, then gets upset at YOU because you are not falling for his pitch.

Merry Christmas and Happy new Year to you John, appreciate your enthusiasm but I'm not hearing anything new at all, I think I've given my viewpoint and I have heard others so I see no reason for me to be involved in this thread past this point.

SR, appreciate your enthusiasm for OA but I guess we just disagree on it, so far I am not sold on it and the annual push from OA to have elections with nothing to make it worth the scouts and parents time have mostly closed my mind to OA at this point.

ACCO it's not one person deciding, it's the ASM's who also don't have time, the parents who don't want to drive to OA meetings and functions, the scouts who were turned off to it either from our 2004 Eagle's experience, what they hear from others at camporres and such, the indian ceremonies they saw and what we used to describe what OA offers when we did make an attempt to educate scouts and gauge interest. It only comes across as one person making the decision because the OA election team comes to the SM as a single point of contact and his reposnes is a reflection of the troop feelings about OA, not that he is the sole decision maker.

MDS appreciate your enthusiasm but OA is another optional thing in scouting and we have no obligation to do it as are many opportunities in scouting ...optional. If we had a lame program, boys bored and dropping out after 14, not doing community service, not reeally functioning as boy led with real leadership, doing NYLT etc I might see some value in OA but that is not the case for us.

I sort of don't understand why some feel the need to push OA so much, many SM's don't see any value in it, they have no obligation to push it. Someone needs to realize the SM's, ASM's etc. out there are volunteering their time just to run a troop and many of us are doing a good job, it gets maddening when folks from district or council or OA or whatever are atempting to shove more stuff down adult leaders throats, trying to hit them up for more and more money, adding more reguirements, paperwork and some programs that only provide un needed hassle.

92 I lament the me first, lazy attitude today of not only scouts but parents too. Made some reference when I posted today on another OA thread. It might be a topic worthy of it's own thread actually. Our unit has been very good on community service projects, helping out in addition to Eagle projects we do every year. I do have some scouts and parents though who do little to no service work, complain that it is a requirement and grip when their failure to do service work holds up their advancement but overall the scouts in our unit are pretty good.

What makes me mad enough to about knock some people's heads off their shoulders is our community, we had a very tragic event happen in the fall of 2006 that deeply effected our small town. Since then the local schools give the students most of the aniversary day off and many volunteer service projects are arranged that day for the students to participate in, many are interesting, food and drinks are provided free as well.

Now that the tragedy is about 5 years in the rear view mirror, kids and parents began to increase the level of b*&^Jing and griping that their poor little darlings were being pushed to do volunteer work. The school district got fed up enough with the whiners that they cancelled the volunteer work and the aniversary activities.

It amazes me how selfish so many kids and parents are even after the horrible thing that happened here in town, makes me want to take some of these folks out behind the woodshed and lay some knowledge on them that they won't ever forget.

Sorry about the rant but peoples me first attitude to the levels I sometimes see, depresses the heck out of me.....

John, I'm with you, I really get aggrivated at many folks today that are all about themselves and never volunteer. Our troop does a lot of community service in addition to about 3 Eagle projects a year so we are not hurting for service opportunities and that message is not lost on our bous. We have it in our program so don't need it from OA.

No disrespect, I will reply honestly in respect for your devotion and interest......

Being a unit scouter, I know that it is usually code for the SM not being interested and thinking it is just one more thing he has to deal with. I always encourage the SM's who are not OA members to be the adult nominated from their troop so they have a working knowledge of the OA and can promote and encourage their boys from inside the troop.

Part of my point right there....when I was SM I had more than plenty to do, I didn't need to be the unit OA adult nominated. More calls to get and communications to handle, more requests I help organize something or line up a ride or weekend or meeting needed to commit to. I didn't need more education about what OA was, I knew enough to realize it didn't offer anything that justified our getting involved.

The sales pitch is the same year after year because frankly, it's the sales pitch. I could lie to you and try to attract you with all sorts of sizzle, but in the end you wouldn't appreciate it very much and then it would just reinforce your already negative feelings about the OA. While you don't care for the yearly sales pitch, I can assure you that I don't care for the yearly cold shoulder of an SM not even willing to listen to the sales pitch and entertain the idea. What do you have to lose?

The sales pitch is the same, it had nothing to really offer last year and is no different this year, I am not looking for sizzle. It is some OA rep calling ME, I have no obligation to get involved and see no reason to get involved. I am sorry for the cold shoulder you get from some, but realize you are reaching out to the units and some don't want to hear the pitch....that's life. You are calling volunteers, most of whom with very full plates, they don't owe anyone anything on a program that is pushed every year and offers little to nothing but more time, with in our case nothing in return.

I honestly don't mean to be disrespectful, I am just trying to give honest feedback from my perspective. OA reps pushing every year is like an annoying salesman who refuses to quit and doesn't really hear the customer's objections. They seem to think that if they push long and hard enough certainly the customer is going to buy. OA's pushiness while offering to what we see as a mostly empty product is the negative and turn off I see with OA. The more they push and try to sell me with the same pitch, the same product the more I was turned off to it. As for the cold shoulder, sorry about that but when the SM hears the same line about the same program they said no to year after year prior they have probably had it and reslly don't owe anyone any explanations, it is the OA rep calling HIM remember.

I mentioned earlier that the council offers all kinds of activities etc. They are simple "Available". There is too much but I offer a selection to the troop to particiapte in if they wish. Almost none of those folks involved with those opportunities and activities call me and hound me trying to push their activity on me. OA does and over time I have reacted by giving them the cold shoulder. I'm not looking for sizzle but if you offer something we aren't interested in don't be surprised when we say no, no matter how much the OA rep wants to push it.

What do you have to lose? Seriously, what do you have to lose by letting an election team come in once a year for 30 minutes to hold an election for the scouts in the unit to vote to honor their peers? It's no skin off an SM's back. Once elected as a candidate, it is up to the individual to determine if he wants to complete his Ordeal or not. If he does, hopefully there are other members in the troop who would assist him in accomplishing that goal. If not, he can come alone.

The question isn't what do I have to lose, but why should wI bother. It is OA reps contacting us with the same program we are not interested in, there are other offerings council has we are not interested in, with all we do and all opportunities out there, we can't consider them all. OA is viewed as a pushy group interested in their own thing and needs us to support them but they offer little to no reason to get involved, so why should we bother ?

It's a long list of opportunities that the OA can provide a boy to enhance his scouting career. I've listed those opportunities before and won't extend this post by listing them again. For a boy interested, he can take those opportunities all the way to the regional and national level. Why would an SM want to deny any boy in their troop of any opportunity. It's kind of like discouraging a boy from doing merit badges.

Merit badges are an integeral part of the advancement program, OA is an optional side program so I don't see it as apples to apples. I see your point about additional opportunities but where does that stop.....there is Civil Air Patrol and 4H and Junior Achievent and other opportunities for youth to grow too. With the time I have I was trying to run a good scout troop and good program, didn't have time for more offshoot programs especially ones that add no percieved value. We did push NYLT...saw great beenfit, the boys commited to a week and got a lot out of it. OA is meetings all year and conclave parties and other things the boys are not interested so we don't waste time considering it. HAving a strong boy led troop offers leadership opportunities, no need for regional or national opportunities. If OA is about service to the unit first, we are already getting that and a better boy led situation than when I took over.

We had one boy this decade do OA, he made Eagle about 2004 under the scoutmaster previous to me, wasn't driven to get palms, he couldn't get many before age out so he tried OA. Very motivated and positve young man, started OA at 17. A few years ago I made an attempt to try OA in our unit one ASM who was big into OA as a youth "had no time" to be involved today as unity adult advisor. We went to the young man I referenced who was about 20 when we approached him about rejoining and being OA adult advisor. He told me he could squeeze out the time but from his experience wouldn't waste time on OA. After several useless meetings, minimal participation, Conclave parties and one lame work session he dropped participation. Furtehrmore not one scout in our unit was interested in OA.

Again I mean no offense but you are not telling me something I have not heard many times before so I continue to not be even close to sold.

I noted a logisitcal issue, we are very distant from the Denver area, we learned quickly and gave up on any activities teh boys wanted in the D3enver Metro just because no parents wanted to drive scouts back down to the city after commuting to and from there all week long. It gets even worse when they have to drive up on a weeknight and turn arounf to take theri scout to a lodge meeting, hang around and drive home again to go to bed and have nothing to do with family that night. I know it isn't going to happen and the ussual default calls to the SM to try and get a ride is the regular default. Conclave parties and such are 2 and a half hours away...out monthly troop campouts are more popular and within an hour of home. If we lived in the Denver metro we might have given OA a better shot but the losgitic mess I jsut described is about the final nail in the coffin for us.

Maybe we may have made some plan to work out but OA provided no program that inspired us to do so and the boys aren't interested...so we focused on our program.

Hope this reponse provides more honest reasons than the cold should you get from some.

Double posted....(This message has been edited by hicountry)

Seattle, I don't intend to sound mean or anything but our troop has run well for 5 or 6 years now, I and ths scouts and parents don't see the need to add things unless they are fun or unique or a great opportunity. We put enough in trying to have a successful troop by just about all measures, that seems to be plenty.

The troop is essentially the customer, the side stuff offered through BSA are like many small businesses, reaching out for units (Scoutmaster's) attention be it career night, roundtable, FOS, Popcorn, Denver Nuggets Night, Merit badge classes, Soccer games, college hockey, OA, Venture, Explorer, Food drives, sporting clays and on and on. All are providing something but OA is one of those things that tries to go above the mere mention of an opportunity troops and scouts can decide to participate or not, they are making a harder effort to push OA, to sell it and lament that participation is not what they wish it to be.

OA is a great tradition but those wanting to reverse the negative trends in OA need to understand that the customer (Units) need to see something they want or value in OA in order to "buy". God Bless anyone who is trying to improve/expand OA but they are mostly doing it from their love of OA and trying to sell their viewpoint to the units. The units (customers) are not seeing anything they want and that is why so many pass on it. Adult volunteers, parents, kids have loaded schedules as it is, why add a similar program that requires more time, travel, communication etc when the existing troop program provides that and maybe more in the customer's eyes. OA contacts our unit every year with the exact same sales pitch and the exact same program that adds no value to us the customer and they ask me why no interest.

I don't know what OA would need to offer for our unit to take interest in and it's not the customers job to come up with a product we want in order for OA to try to sell it to us. Selling us the same thing the saem way every year certainly is not going to work but their approach is to just try to sell it harder every year. Taht is becoming an aditional turn off. As I noted we are busy enough and have focused on a successful troop and program, if OA wants units like ours to get involved they need to come up with something wanted or needed, not try to sell us with the same sales lines every year the scouts don't need and to be honest do not want. A couple of lodge parties and the chance to spend hundreds going to the East coast to learn Indian Dancing they wouldn't be caught dead doing. Those boys highly motivated are not looking to OA, they are advancing in the troop, taking charge in leadership-boy led and if they want more have added school sports.

A couple similar threads going on now about OA, I'll just respond to this one. As a former SM I was initially open to OA. Our troop has some logistical difficulties about it but I was open.

I never got to the issues of diappointment at OA not showing up for elections as we never got that far so fr that I can't relate personal experience.

One good point earlier on is OA is yet another Scout related voice reaching out for the SM's attention.

Note, it is always OA reaching out to units trying to get them involved, we hear very little about units trying to reach OA, we also hear a lot about Sash n dash problem. What this spells out is the OA's main problem....they don't offer much of anything to attract folks into it and many who try it drop it when they find there is little reqson to be in it. A lot of what I heard as a SM was the cliches about it being the honor society and the "opportunities it offered" but they were empty promises.

We have an active camping program, OA offered a bunch of "parties" a work day or two and some trips out of state at considerable expense to do things the scouts had no interest in.

To me they offered no reason to get involved, another distraction, so we took an "we don't do OA" attitude.

The Indian dancing was the clincher, the boys have Less than zero interest, wouldn't be caught dead being involved in it, I'd have better success getting them to cut out paper dresses for dolls than get involved with OA dancing.

I sometimes wondered about the need for venturing and as I saw registration numbers in the Denver Area Council, I realized I was not in the minority with those kinds of thoughts. Of the given number registered in BSA in the council, about 2/3rd were cubs, about one third Boy Scouts and a very small number in Venture, Explorer, varsity etc.

There is one good venture crew that is focused on shooting sports and puts on a good week long Summer camp. It is well run and reasonably popular, my troop has several boys register in the venture crew so they can attend the RAMS summer camp but other than the camp they do nothing with RAMS crew otherwise.

A few of my scouts got involved in a fire based explorer crew a year or so back, unfortunately it was not good at communication and the program was disorganized, many times poorly planned and very boring, the scouts dropped out after giving it a try for about 6 months.

Our troop runs a very active program, camping based and the boys love it, no idea why there is any need to get involved with some side track program that offers no more than, and probably less than what our troop provides. We are fortunate to retain many boys until age out and it has improved the boy led direction of the troop positively. At 14, the begining age to get into venture, the good and motivated scouts are just starting to "get it" and have the skills and experience to help effectively lead the troop, if we lose them to a tangent program it kills the ability to get the boy led troop model really functioning.

Once they are 18 they are done with scouts, they have outgrown it, so why stay ? They are off to jobs and college and girl friends and young adult activities, too busy and too old to do scout things.

Just some of my observations and experience...nothing meant to offend anyone.

We had to introduce rules regarding campout sign up due to scouts and their parents taking ever increasing advantage of the troop scouters that resulted in hassles, un-necessary extra work, frustration and burn out. If we were flexible, people slowly took more and more advantage of things until they were nearly out of control and the boys were learning some very bad habits. As we adhered to rules we got griping from some parents as we did not flex to accomodate them, we invited them to register and help run the troop and activities, that shut most of the complainers up fast.

In addition to spelling out the cutoff date to sign up, we added a cut off date for dropping off the activity (Unless signifigant circumstance caused the scout to drop and activity).

2 part permission slips were created so we knew the parents were aware little Johnie signed up and the second part was to magnet to the fridge as a reminder of the event they commited to (Writing things on a calendar is a lost ancient art).

Scout must have funds in their scout "Account" 2 weeks prior to the event or they don't get to go PERIOD. Before that we had scouts signing up and attending events with the promise from a parent to pay the balance due. They would rack up close to $80 in owed fees with the parent promising to pay...and fail...for up to six months. When the treasurer burned out calling these folks, I as SM was called in and got the parent to pay and cut them off of trips until it was paid. After a year or so of that nonsense we created the funds in acound 2 weeks prior rule and stuck to it.

I'd love to accomodate every scout but the bottom line is, us adult volunteers put in enough time and effort, we shouldn't have to put in even more to accomodate families who think only of their own convenience and expect you to solve the problems they create for them.

Spot on Baden P, we opted out of the JTE, formerly quality unit, formerly Centenial unit carrot and stick game a few years ago. As I assumed, the devil in the details about JTE are coming out and it appears to be developing into a clueless, useless game that as you put it, is out of touch with Scouting in the field.

I too am amazed they manage to sucker in many units with such poor incentives as a patch and a certificate.....big deal. Somehow I managed to be a SM for 5 years without a trained patch as I never took IOLS and we ran very well and I never missed a beat nor did I stay awake nights over the lack of that patch. All of the adult volunteers in our troop were actually a little happier once we ditched playing the game, the paperwork and hassle regarding JTE and it's prior versions while we continued to run a very good program.

Apparently Denver Area Council is pressuring SM's to get all training now or not being able to recharter with their troop come February. I retired as SM a year ago, but am still a Committee Member with our troop, our new SM, who had already been Cubmaster for 4 years with all current training there, plus most of the BS training and 20 years as a camping and whitewater guide is missing this weekend's troop campout to have to take IOLS...a total waste of his time.

Our troop long ago discussed the mandatory full training that may be coming and decided that....on paper anyway.....the SM on the charter would be someone who had all the training and everyone else registers as Committee members regardless of the uniform and patch they wear or the job they perform. If BSA wants to escalate beyond that there will be a registered SM and a very few committee members and a lot of "Involved and helpful Parents"...not regestered but with YPT.

If they want to play hardball beyond that they can probably deal with a disovled unit with no one registering for anything.

I've mentioned before, I have been active on the local fire department for almost a decade, sometimes changes come to Firefighter One, or Hazmat OPS or First Responder since I was certified, but since I am active on calls and department training I stay reasonably up to date and don't have to retrain on what I already trained and have been doing for years....in a sometimes life and death situation. So why is it that BSA feels the need to retrain people on how to pitch a tent and the like after they have been experienced and doing it for a long time ?

"He called me 6 times yesterday from 2-9pm."

HUGE RED WARNING FLAG HERE

This is someone almost out of control and may sense they are losing thier grip of contol over YOU.

Definitely time to distance yourself from this guy and probably district and council. Don't answer or return calls, as others have said, control your own destiny, only turn in apps with payment, other apps....what apps ?

FOS...."we'll get back to you"

Dlegate

Say NO more often.

District events.....hold your own events that can be more fun, closer, lower cost, more convenient.

Don't let them strangle you with threats, keep them out of your unit's business, don't provide them with any information that may come back to haunt you latter.

If they make district events a pain to attend/comply with hold your own events and have nothing to do with the district one. Fly under the radar by not letting them know what or when or how you are running meetings, don't clue them in on the date/location of your B&G, jetison the Tour Permit process and any money earning apps.

They basically begged you to cut them off based on borderline abusive treatment, now give them what the asked for.

In the 2 years I was ASM and 5 years as SM of a troop that had between 25 and 32 scouts in it, I think only 3 times did a scout come to me or any adult wanting to start a merit badge on thier own. @ times came from the same scout. The concept of independantly doing this is lost today. I tried to promote the traditional means of the merit badge process on numerous occasions but it was like talking to the wall. The parents see the badges a checkoff although I was able to educate them somewhat as to what we are trying to accomplish with many aspects of the scout program and the did see the value in hooding boys responsible and teaching them the lessons and values scouting is ther to deliver. Despite that I never could get rid of much of the checkoff mentality.

I did have scouts transfer to our troop from a neighboring troop that told me the SM there forbade MB Universities and was strict about summer camp badges etc. We didn't provide an easy path for boys, we did require they make an effort, learn something and nothing would come to them automatically BUT...the way people, family and society function today the old method of the Merit badge Process doesn't work for most people.The other troop demanded folks change the way they wanted to do things, I offered what people wanted. Again, I remind you we didn't hand out the advancements and badges freely or make things too easy, we tailoered to what the customer wanted.

I too have seen the trend of really...reall...realy bad summer camp merit badge counselors experience and the MBC's I have gone to have done a decent job from my observations. Yes the adult interaction and scout intiative part is gone with the MBC but that is the world we live in today.

I wish we still had the heart and soul of what the MB program is about but the world has changed and I was not going to change it back.

I would guess that about 30% of our troop over time has taken advantage of the MB colleges around our district, those were all boys who did the hard work and were wanting to advance, I feel every one of them did the work, made the effort adn made higher rank (Some Eagle) due to theri own desire.

Our unit is also a little handicapped as we are in a remote rural area and are limited in population/merit badge counselors vs population dense/ urban and suburban troops.