Herms

I was a registered leader in GSUSA for several years (the only male in the council). I ran the outdoor program for our troop and the parents (many of them single mothers) loved having me around (As I was male influence in there girls life, but I ALWAYS made sure a female leader was with me!)

On the first camporee I was told by the Service Unit Leader that, I had to be out of camp by 10:00pm (yeah right, I was still doing dishes) and that I had to pitch my tent 75 yards away (neither of which is a GS rule, but I did to be a part of my girls scouting expierence). My girls were very prepared, but I brought 6 extra sleeping bags, extra blankets and extra jackets, all of which I gave out to other troops that showed up and the women and girls were very thankful I came. A group of them went to council to complain about the 10 O'clock and 75 yard rule, which is how we found out that there is no such thing, and was the Service Unit leaders personal bias.

When I attended the outdoor training (which was extremely poor) I was basicly told to keep my mouth shut when offering to help run a compass course (which the trainer didn't have a clue on how to do). Over the course of the weekend the other female leaders there for training started coming up to me on the side asking for help and pointers.

After 5 years with the troop, my daughter last year decided that she doesn't want to do Girl Scouts anymore (Teenagers!!), but can't wait until she turns 14 next year to join Venturing!

"The Clinton administration had an active program to find and root out al Qaeda. The work they did prevented the millennium bombing.

What about the 1996 bombing of the World Trade Center? They just didn't get it done the first time. If anyone out there thinks that the U.S can stop the terrorist if they really want to hit us, they are deluded. We live in a great free country, but it is that freedom that they can use against us if they want to. It is how we respond when they do that will deter them from future actions.

Also if you think that there is a politician out there who doesnt lie to the people, again you are deluded. Unfortunately, the way our political system works today, a politician has to sell his soul to get the money to run for office. Lets not forget that over 90% of the members of Congress are lawyers, trained to look for the cracks in our legal system or ways to get around it.

Is Bush the worst president? No, but I trust him more than the last one, and I dont see a better alternative in the next election.

P.S. I am an Independent and voted for a Democratic governor last election.

I have been watching this thread and have seen lots of great ideas (some of which I have printed out and will bring up at the Adult Training Development Conference this weekend).

After talking with my wife again about some of the things I've heard in this discussion, I think her frustration was with the Tiger Specific training. She liked the Youth Protection and New Leader Essentials, but thought that they spent to much time on those, and not enough time learning how to run, and what to do during den meetings, i.e. activities, games etc. (guess she'll have to learn it from me, Ha! Ha!)

She is brand new to Boy/Cub Scout leadership (but has done lots of parent activities) and I think part of her expectation of the training was she was looking for ideas. I like Twocubdad's idea of merging the Tiger and Cub training to get a few "more experienced" leaders in with the newbies for just such ideas.

I have heard in a lot of the posts that it may be because of the trainer and not the material. Like many other councils, I guess it is in part because we don't have enough trainers, and that the ones we do have are adding an additional "duty" to their already busy schedules, like me where I fill as Cubmaster and an ASM. I like LPC_Thumper's ideas on preparation. I think that if we trainers know the material better we can then focus on adding the enthusiasm and energy to the presentation.

Like some others, I don't much care for the idea of online Specific training, as some of the best benefits of the training I have attended was the interaction and exchange of ideas I got from other Scouters (kind of like this forum).

On a few Saturdays, the schedule has the leaders going to Youth Protection, New Leader Essentials and then the Specific trainings. My thought is that maybe this is trying to cram too much at leaders (especially new ones) into one day.

With so much to teach/review, are we doing the Specific training an injustice and losing the quality by lack of time?

How has weekday evenings worked for others out there?

Another suggestion presented to me through a private message was to maybe bring in some volunteer boys from some packs to demonstrate a den meeting or pack meeting?

Would this be appropriate? And would it be beneficial?

Lastly, our council holds the training about 3 or 4 times a year, in different districts. Is this enough?

Keep the thoughts flowing.

Thanks,

Herms

P.S. The only place I have voiced my (and other leaders) concerns of the training was this forum. Shhhhh.

I guess that is why I am getting involved at a higher level.

(Great Closing)

May the peace of the forest,

The song of the birds,

The inspiration of the hills,

The warmth of the sun,

The strength of the trees,

The fragrance of the flowers,

The joy of the wind,

The calm of the lake,

In all of which is the creator,

Of all good things,

Be in our hearts tonight and always.

Opening (Have a boy read each one)

Let us draw from this campfire, with all its vibrancy and warmth, the secrets of Scouting and the spirit of brotherhood.

In its light we see new chances to be helpful and to do our best.

From its warmth we strengthen the bonds of fellowship and learn how to get along with others.

From the ring around the fire that keeps its power in check, we learn how we can curb our tempers and become good citizens.

From the smoke that rises out of the fire, we learn to lift our eyes upward and worship God.

The spark that started this fire reminds us that little Good Turns can lead to greater deeds.

Just as the fire needs wood to bum brightly, so do we need the care and love of our parents to burn brightly.

In its leaping flames, we see the fun of Scouting and the job of life.

Very well put Eamonn.

It's obvious from that beautiful tribute that she did a good job with her son. Be proud of who you are and what you do, because wherever she is now, she is.

My condolences.

Eamonn and Bob,

You two are very knowledgeable in the ways of scouting, and I respect and value your advice. However, we all know what the intent of this kind of "rule" is, to get kids active in scouts.

Everything is not black and white all the time; there are always shades of gray, which no official BSA policy addresses. With our troop as I explained, there are exceptions. Let's use school for example. If a child misses school, he will get to make up the work if he has and "excused" absence. However, if he makes a choice not to come to school the "unexcused" absences doesn't let him make up the work and ultimately maybe not graduate. In sports, you go to practice or you don't play. In life you go to work, or you don't get paid. Consequences for actions are something that many kids are lacking in today's society (look at Scout A).

You make it sound like the >50% rule is the ONLY thing troops, such as ours, are using to measure scout spirit. It is but a small portion (there is all the rest of the Oath and Law they must uphold!), a way to tell boys (AND PARENTS!!) of the participation expectations (like school and sports).

What physical measurement do we as SM/ASMs have to judge a boys Scout Spirit? In Bobs example Scout A would seem easy right? Do we know how he is at home or at school? For all we know he could be very respectful and obedient at home and a joy of a student, and uses his scout time to release. Scout B, is not at the meeting, but would get an excused absence if you will, because he is doing things that show scout spirit.

Again I ask what other physical measurement do we have that shows us that a scout is demonstrating Scout Spirit? The only time we have to observe him is during his participation. Does a scout show Scout Spirit if he only shows up to the swimming night or for campouts, yet you never see him for a service project, or to help other boys at meetings (because the baseball game was more important)?

Consequences of actions. Is this adding to the requirement or living up to the full intent of the requirement? We can quote from the book all day long, but in the end we must(with the help of parents and the committee of course) each individually decide on the best interests of our boy's, and our troop.

(Sorry everyone that I got so long winded, good things to think about)(This message has been edited by Herms)

I am very confused by terms some of you are using in your posts.

Philosophically, an ATHEIST by definition acknowledges the existence of a supreme being, but denies it. An AGNOSTIC doubts the very existence of a supreme being.

(Wow, to deep for a Friday!)

Think about it for a second. For you self-proclaimed Atheists out there, are you Atheist or do you really mean Agnostic?

Just wondering what the Scout World, especially they newer leaders out there think about the training they are receiving. I have been in scouts almost 20 years, but my wife (who I just recently conned into being a Tiger leader) took the Specific training and was very disappointed. From the previous thread I saw where another leader had a similar experience, as well as when I have taken most trainings over the years.

As a Cubmaster I run a very exciting pack program (we have the greatest job in scouts, wind up the boys and then send them home!) and have had several Cubmasters visit this year to feel the energy and get ideas (which they should have got in training).

I have decided to get on the district and council training teams and could use some input about how we can improve the training. From my wife, she said that they mostly just read from the book, but didn't give her much info on HOW to organize activities. She also didn't get a feel for HOW to infuse excitement and energy in to her program (other than watching Mister Know-it-all here).

Now before some of you jump in, I know there is an established training syllabus and method, but we need to do better. Soooo, I ask you out there. WHAT kind of training did you get (Remember a Scout is Honest)? For you "O'l Timers" out there, WHAT have you seen over the years that you see needs to be added/changed? For you newer leaders WHAT did you have to learn the hard way in the last couple years that you wish someone would have trained you on?

Liberal Radio,

Isn't most of the media liberal??

They can be ghosts or a great help. Its the "luck-o-the-draw". Seriously, a good UC can keep you apprised of what is happening at the District level, give you ideas as to what successful things other packs/troops are doing and be an extra of ears, eyes and hands.

If the kids (and parents) want to spend the summer on Scout activities (instead of getting into trouble or staring at the idiot box) LET THEM HAVE AT IT!

Deloe,

You got both points backwards, both are choices.

Our troop uses the >50% policy as a consideration when talking with PARENTS and boys about Scout Spirit (do your best from the Oath). If the boy is at 49.9% (i.e. he was sick and that was the best he could do) will he still be signed off on Scout Spirit, sure we will.

In todays society, children are put under intense pressure to perform in athletics. Im a Young American Football League (YAFL) referee, and have actually heard parents yell at us telling us that we are hurting there 10 year olds chances at an athletic scholarship, and one even told us we were affecting his NFL career preparation!

Today (and it gets worse as they get older) Scouts has to compete with sports for a youths time. More often than not it is the PARENTS who are making the decision for the kids.

Many times the boy would rather be at Scouts, having fun and learning without pressure, than at the Baseball game where people are yelling at them to perform. I have just such a boy, that it wasnt until we sat the PARENTS down and explained that there boy needs to PARTICIPATE in Scouts to advance (which was important to the boy) that they realized they was placing such a heavy emphasis on sports. Since than he has been to more meetings and campouts and is really enjoying himself.

Like anything in life there is a line that has to be drawn in order for people to know what is acceptable behavior and what is not. I think the >50% rule, although I recognize that it is not an official BSA policy (and it should be!), can be used as a guideline for PARENTS and boys alike to judge there level of commitment to the program. School and sports coaches use it all the time to get PARENTS to guide their sons commitment to something.

BSA (by purposeful intent or avoidance) has always left a lot of decisions up to the individual troops (which I think is OK, because they are so diverse). If a Troop reasonably uses the >50% rule to a guide scouts commitment to Do there Best (from the ambiguous requirement Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath); sorry guys, but I dont see the down side.

Merlyn,

Such anger!?

Thanks Bob. Been to the training (several years ago) and read the handbook (going to have to go back and read again), but this is the first time we've actually had enought new scouts to start one (in fact we ended up three new patrols!).

Our adult patrols is called the Anasazi Patrol, an old indian word meaning "the ancient ones", but man can we make a good dutch oven cobbler!.

Kudos NJCubScouter, on taking a little time to research a subject and post an intelligent response.

Wow, what a thread. As you can see, reading this whole thread, the media (which is in the entrainment business) is accomplishing their goal, which is to get people riled up. If they use lies or stretch the true a bit who seems to care. It's entertainment. People these days dont seem to care about true and integrity, but sensationalism (just look at all the reality shows). Most often times truth, facts and logic are boring, but controversy sells. The sad fact is that most people dont, or wont take the time to filter out fact from fiction. Look at how people vote, most couldnt tell you what a candidate really stands for other than the commercials they see on TV. What is even more disturbing is the fact that our children are watching more TV (instead of getting outside), and are sucking up all of the medias deceit.

Woodsmith,

The Campfire isn't dead. We have some great campfires (sometimes without a fire) with skits and songs. At first some of the new parents and scouts aren't much into the songs, but after a few they get into it. At our campout week before last our campfire lasted two and a half hours and could have went on a lot longer (S'mores finally won out).

It's a great opportunity to have boys get up and perform in front of the troop or pack.

Proud Eagle,

I like your idea of the museum out near D.C. I think you would have many more visitors, especially on years when they hold the National Jamboree.

Maybe this should be a new thread, but what do my fellow Scouters out there think of the "New Patrol" concept of putting all of the fresh Webelo crossovers in a new patrol together until they have adjusted to Boy Scouts?

The reason I ask is that the troop has recently doubled in size, with over twenty new scouts. The troop has really started using the Patrol method and I am watching these new patrols, who are very active, trying to run as a patrol with a patrol guide (an ASM) and patrol assistant (older Boy Scout). Each boy takes a turn (a few weeks) doing each one of the different jobs and they all seem to be focusing on advancement.

I am worried that they may be just an extension of a Webelos den and not getting the full benefit of a patrol with interaction with boys of different ages.

On the flip side I see the boys that crossed over last year and are merged with the older scouts, kind of floundering and trying to find an identity, and have not as yet even attained Tenderfoot and I dont see that they have grown much over the past year.

Is the New Scout patrol concept part of the Patrol Method and does it work?

On the previous thread there was talk about permission for boys to do a particular merit badge, which brought to mind incidents I have seen in troops over the years and the underlying question:

What is the purpose for a boy doing a Merit Badge?

To me the Merit Badge System is a way for boys to try new things, and explore new interests. I encourage my boys to try merit badges that they may not know anything about (and one picks Atomic Energy!).

But many times over the years I have heard parents, and leaders, guiding boys to focus on merit badges that that they need for advancement and do the ones they already know something about, rather than letting the boys try something new (which may be harder). You see it at summer camps, Take the merit badges that you can complete at camp or That is not really a good merit badge for a first year camper. I recently had a run in with a parent/councilor who told a new scout to wait until he was First Class before starting merit badge work. So I ask, what is the philosophy of scouters out there?

Are merit badges for advancement or to explore new interests?

Very good thread. I also don't believe that the signature is a "permission slip" to start a MB, but rather to give them the resources to start the MB (i.e. counselor info, and is an opportunity for the SM to, counsel and guide, a scout on their goals and interests.