Gonzo1

Hunt:

The original post from mk9750 says: "I then asked which point is the most difficult to follow, and he answered "Reverent, because, being an agnostic, it's very difficult to be reverent to a God you have no proof exists".

Just as I agree that DNA tests are not necessary. I also agree that interrogation is not necessary. However, the difference is that HE said he is agnostic and being agnostic is disqualification for membership. It is exactly the job of volunteers (BOR members) to follow up with additional questions. By "leaving it up to the youth members to determine" if a particular requirement is accurate, perhaps we should leave the whole program up to the scouts. If a Life scout thinks his project is good enough, that should be good enough, right? Why have any Board of Review?

I suggested that he be allowed to clarify his position. I think trying to find a "religion" for him is rediculous and allowing to become a Life Scout and potentially an Eagle undermines the integrity of the system IF AND ONLY IF HE DOESN'T QUALIFY FOR MEMBERSHIP.

What if a girl joined who appeared quite androgenous? Suppose she had done much the same thing? What if she tied all the knots and earned all the badges? But later began 'developing' later on and it was discovered that she was a girl? Do you keep her? Or if a boy started to show that he was attracted to other boys? Do you keep him?

The integrity of the program must be maintained.

Besides the rolling vs folding, un-zip all zippers before folding and rolling to prevent crimping or kinking.

Hops Scout,

I must have been distracted, thanks for keeping me straight.

Being an Army veteran, how could I forget Flag Day and Army Birthday.

June and July will be Red, White and Blue. Not sure what to do with August. Maybe we'll strip off the branches, freshen them up and leave up the pole. Red, White and Blue again for September with Labor Day and 911 and all. Halloween, Veterans Day, and Thangksgiving are coming up now. Some more patriotism for Dec 7 and then Christmas!

We're getting the stuff out next weekend! Let the fen begin!!!

Merry Christmas and HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! (All of them)

p.s. I really do wish everyone a Merry Christmas unless I know the individual to be of a non-Christian faith. I'm not that insensitive.

I'm also not one of these kooks who leave the Christmas lights on the house year round.

I'm a WDL and a Unit Commissioner (for other units). About 8 weeks ago, the other WDL and I took our Webelos camping. Warmer wx I know, but I sent out a packing list to the parents and boys.

Since the family camping we just had was for packs, I assumed that other den leaders or someone else would send a packing list also. I know, I know..... I know what to expect when I assume.

Some people didn't bring eating utensils or anything to eat out of.

Here's what I'll do: I'll offer a class to the parents of our cubs to improve their camping skills so no one has to hide in the car, get wet or go hungry. (nobody actually went hungry, we had a stash of paper plates and plastic ware)

Like one of our other forum members says:

I love this Scoutin' stuff!

Gonzo

Trevorum,

Thank you.

FB,

I concur. I also think BSA is a little to broad in the God department, but that's the way it is.

Lisa,

Points taken.

Gonzo

Beavah,

We already have "small, independent, high-efficiency teams doin cool stuff". They're called patrol.

UZ2bnowl

I agree, I hope paintball doesn't make it into BSA.

BTW, I usually agree with you two anyway.

To stick with the origin premise, I think Scouting wouldn't exist as we know it. Patrol might be called Teams or Buzz Groups and wouln't be identified by fairly cool names like Comanche, Thunderbird, Scorpion and the like. We might have softer names like daisy, dandelion or be named for colors so no one is offended.

We certainly wouldn't have Indian Lore, the PC cowd and the ACLU wouldn't allow it.

I'm glad we have scouting. I hope it can 'toughen up' a little. I'm very thankful for B-P and what he and our forefathers in BSA have done.

Gonzo

Just got back from Cub Scout Family Camping weekend, halloween theme, haunted train, trick or treating, crafts, da works! Friday night was chilly, probably 40 degrees. One mom slept in her car. She thought the dew on the tent was too much. She and her son didn't stay for Saturday night.

Saturday was beautiful weather. however, while someone listened the Georgia Bulldogs game, they found out there would be rain and some thunder. about 10% of the camp bailed out Saturday evening. We had a couple more families leave Saturday night from our pack.

Maybe, just maybe, the cubs aren't quite cut out for camping if they can't handle a little coolness and rain.

What kind of message does it send the the cubs if you only camp in fair weather? Where is your poncho? or rain fly? Don't people pack with Zip Lock bags?

Trevorum,

I'm a Methodist, our thing is "open doors, open hearts, open minds".

My mind may not be as open as my heart or our door, but I can learn. Then, my mind opens a little more.

I hope the lad stays in scouting, if he passes the BOR.

We have a Hindu scout in our unit. His mom is active and they are vegetarians. That's a unique experience as well.

Scoutmom111,

If you had your flag "thing" happen at WB, you should all have been in uniform, same hat, right?

At camporee or other outings, you can solve the hat "thing" by either all having uniform hat on, or all taking off hats (either everyone is in BSA hat or not), then there would be no problem.

Gern,

For some reason, I don't trust wikipedia as a source, I heard anyone can make changes to it. I went to buddistinformation.com

http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhist_attitude_to_god.htm

I'm not saying one religion is better than any other. What I'm saying is that instead of his troop committee (or us) trying to pigeon hole this lad into a religion so he can become and Eagle is rediculous.

He stated that he is agnostic. I say give him a chance to fully explain and discuss with a minister his position. If he doesn't believe, he would make his own fate. At 17 years old, he should be mature enough to accept the consequences.

As I stated, I hope he can remain, but the policies are not enforced along the way, then there is no integrity in the policy. I know BSA policy is fairly broad in this matter. It shouldn't be as big a deal as we all are making it.

Trevorum

You STILL don't get it:

You said "Gonzo, so your position is that Buddhists who do not believe in a god should be denied BSA membership"

You're trying to pin me down by saying that since Buddhists don't believe in "A" god, it appears as though Buddhists believe in the existence of many devas ---- See below.

I don't need to email anybody at national about anythng.

Pg 45 of the Boy Scout Handbook says in part:

... To do my duty to God

Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.

Pg 54 of the Boy Scout Handbook says in part:

A scout is reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

A brief internet search of Buddhism reveals this:

Buddhism speaks of the existence of category of beings called devas. This term is generally translated as "gods" (with a simple `g' and in the plural). The term deva literally means a shining or radiant being, and describes their physical appearance rather than their supernatural powers (as the translation "gods" seems to imply).

So if a Buddhist believes in devas, he passes the belief test.

Someone who does not believe in God does not.

Either believe ------- or leave.

Now do you get it?

God or light, love, a leaf, awesome power, higher power, or whatever Trevorum thinks will pass the 'God' test, Bless America!

By the way, I hoe he can stay in scouts. Give the kid every opportunity, but if it's a dishonest attempt to circumvent the rules, I don't think so.

Keep Aloft

Equipment: Volley bal or soccer ball.

Circle up the scouts. Someone tosses a ball high into the air and the scouts pass the ball around but don't let the ball touch the ground.

When a scout does, he's out, the circle gets smaller and smaller.

Good time killer, generally fun.

Trevorum,

I dissagree with you.

Please turn to page 9, 45 and 54. You'll see that a scout must agree to live by the Scout Oath and Law. How can he if he doesn't believe that God exists? BSA does not establish which religions are acceptable and which are not. However, he can't do his duty to God if he does believe in some kind of God.

Lisa'Bob,

It's not a witch hunt, the young man made his comments to the BR, they didn't give him the third degree. Once revealed, it should be the responsibility of the BOR, troop committee and SM to determine his fate.

I agree that EVERY opportunity should be given to the lad for him to clarify his position. If he doesn't believe, he can't be a member. Soryy.

Fuzzy Bear,

you said .....if belief in God becomes the litmus test for being a Scout, then all of the other precepts become meaningless

I respectfully disagree. Belief in God is fundamental to BSA membership. A scout agrees to live by the Scout Oath and Law to join BSA. How can he do his duty or be reverent if he doesn't believe.

I suggest the BOR meet with the lad and a minister and determine his belief system. He doesn't have to be a member of any particular religion or church, he must however believe.

Gonzo

Brent,

After the Airing of Grievances, can we do the "feats of strength"?

After a while, aI got to think about the Holiday Tree. I think this year I'll mine up. After Christmas, i'll take off all the ornaments and put on pictures of civil rights leaders and activists with Rosa Parks or MLK at the top. Then at the end of January, I'll take them down and get ready Presidents Day with pictures of the presidents with Washinton at the top with a quick shuffle for Valentines's Day and put hearts and cupids and ribbons with "Be Mine?" all over. March is St. Patrick's Day, so you know what's coming here, but a leprechaun at the top this time.

There will be a little gap in April, except I'll put pictures of me, because I was born in April, so it's my tree and that's that.

May gets to honor our fallen war heroes. Either patton or Audy Murphy at the top this time.

Another break in June, July of course will be Red, White and Blue!!!

And so it will go for the coming year.

Merry Christmas and Happy Festivus!

Scoutldr,

Sorry to hear about your conflict.

you said: .......my own beliefs are more aligned with the church than with the BSA policy. And you said: ...this church holds that marriage is a lifelong covenant of faithfulness between a man and a woman

It seems that you want to minister to the needs of homosexuals, but do not approve of gay marriage. It appears that your church wants to minister to gays, but not marry them. So they welcome gay couples but won't perform marriages.

Maybe I'm missing something, but your church won't marry gays, but wants to minister to them. It seems that there shouldn't be a problem, no gays in your church's scout unit.

BSA's policy and rules prohibit gay members, we all know that.

Look at another situation. Suppose a club existed nationwide for tall ballroom dancers. In order to join, members must be 6 feet tall in stocking feet and dance fox-trot and waltz at the dances. I love dancing, but I want to join too, but I'm only 5'9". I know the waltz and fox trot, can I join? I can't, because I don't meet the memship criteria. But i can start a group for short dancers.

LCDR Vicki,

I assume CD is camp director?

The old timer should have taken any issue to your leadership or camp leadership.

By using the paradeground flags, did you use the American Flag? If so, IMO this is a non-issue. you didn't actaually dessecrate the flag, did you? I think not.

What enemy would you have been surrending to? I think the old timer was out of line for saying anything in front of your scouts.

Gonzo

CPT, USAR, Ret

mk,

I stick withmy earlier comments and agree with OGE and nldscout.

Perhaps the BOR could contionally pass the young man pending a meeting with the minister (is church is Chartered Organization).

Allow enough time in the meeting to be certain he knows what he is saying. Then yo might ask the minister to meet with the BOR and/or the parents. You might include the minister in an additional BOR and future boards.

The rule is the rule.

One ting is certain, when asking for guidance and you ask 20 scouters, you'll probably get 15 opinions.

All the best,

G

mk9750,

I'll stick to your post.

About 10 years ago when I was SM, we had a second or first class scout who one night decided he wasn't say the Pledge of Allegiance or the Scout Oath anymore. When I called him over to me and the CC, I asked him why he didn't salute and recite. He said "I don't believe in no God, I ain't saying that crap no more" I told him to bring one of his parents the next week and the CC and I discussed it with the parent. I reminded the parent that joining requirements in the book stated that the scout understand agrees to live by the Scout Oath and Law. The parent told us that he didn't know what has gotten into his son, but that he had been this way for a little while. With a heavy heart, I asked the parent and scout to leave. They left and that was it.

It seems in your situation, you may wish to consult with the scout, his parent(s) and the members of the BOR.

Good Luck.

Merlyn,

Please, in the Sept 10th world, we didn't have planes just sittin' around ready to go. We didn't PLAN for anythng like that so there would be no plan to enact. I'm sorry if you think jets were scrambled too late. The aircraft I used to fly took 30-45 minutes to inspect before flying. In that case though I would probably kick the tires and light the engines.

Just so you know, NORAD doesn't just pick up the phone and say "Launch the ready 5 aircraft!" There is an incredible amount of red tape involved, operations planning, intel gathering, weapons aquisition, etc, far too much to mention here, send me a private message, I'll try to explain.

SR540B

Remember the deep voice of John Kerry, "I voted for the $87 bilion before I voted against it"

Bush responded, congress authorized it.

Ladies and gentlemen, unless I receive a private message about this thread, I'm done, good day.

Brian,

I can't recall exactly, but as i understand it, you attended WB fairly early in your scouting career, is that right? Mainly because you said boys need trained leaders. I suugest you get a few more years of experience under you belt, attend roundtable, local training like Boy Scout leader specific training. THEN, go to WB, you'll have a better idea of what's going on.

There may be a decline in membership today, but in any organization, some things are cyclical. Memberhsip will rebound. The best way for your troop to get new boys is to have scouts bring a guest.

Good luck.

Packsaddle, I'm sorry if you thnk I'm beating up on you, we just don't agree on everything.

.....wrath of my wife. Very funny, thanks for the laugh.

WMD's did exist, our soldiers have found them. However, I believe that Bush gave too many warnings to Saddam which allowed him to hide or move weapons, I had a photo of one of his jets that was buried in the desert. I suppose that didn't exist either.

Regarding a draft, that's like a politician trying to cut medicare spending, neither will ever happen. Since 1975, we've had an all volunteer armed force, no draft required. It's odd that when a US Territory was attacked on Dec. 7, '41, men were lining up to enlist. I thik it was Democratc Congressman Charlie Rangel who proposed a draft legislaton, but then he voted against his own bill, why would he do that?

Merlyn,

In the pre-Sept 11 world, the USA did not have war planes just sitting around loaded with missiles ready to shoot down airliners, so that would not have been feasible. You can't imagine the red tape required to get a bullet, much less a missile. After Sept 11, nearly all fighters were loaded. Even on Sept 11, we didn't really comprehend the attack, my old unit went about business as usual. 3 days later, we went to 24 hour operations for the next 2 years.

SR540Beaver,

Bush didn't take us into war, we were attacked. Al-Qaida attacked us and declared war on us. I know, during the Clinton years, we had embassies attacked, USS Cole attacked, 1993 WTC bombing etc. What did Clinton do? He sent a flew missiles to aspirin factories in the middle of the night. Whew, that solved everything. 14 UN resolutions did nothing, UN inspectors got kicked out, that did nothing too. I'm glad we're there, though I also wish we could pick up the pace. I wonder what Gore or Kerry would have done? I suspect nothing too.

Ahhh, vinyl, those were the good ol' days, scratch, hiss pop. That was music!

Hunt, DanKroh, mmhardy, Merlyn and anyone else else i may have offended:

I apologize if what I have said here offends you.

I am offended by the constant criticism our our president and our military. It seems that the left just can not stand GWB.

Dan,

I know that typing in CAPS generally means SHOUTING, that's because I was. Except for one reply where I separated my comments from the other poster. I haven't figured out how to make italics, colors and bold on the forums, I tried using MS Word and then pasting them, but no luck.

Hunt,

There is no possible way anyone in the Bush administration could know in advance that planes would be used as missiles. We don't have thought detection systems in place, at least not yet (wink), I know I could use the little sybmol, but wink brings more attention to it.

Also, liberals make their baseless charges and then hope for no response, what do you expect?

Another word about Saddam, he repeatedly violated UN sanctions/resolutions and the terms of the surrender of the Gulf War. Should we just have let it go? The resolutions had "teeth" in them. Bush warned that there would be harsh consequences, and then there were.

mmhardy, I agree that we could have taken a different tack in Iraq, and perhaps Afganistan. Perhaps we should have continued the pounding with missiles rather than dragging out the ground war. I agree that we are spread pretty think right now.

Good day to all, sorry to offend. Please accept my sincere apology.