GKlose

Not to sidetrack the discussion all that much, but when you're a kid growing up on an overseas base, what kinds of things do you do?

I spent some time on Griffis AFB in Rome, NY many years ago, and there was a school, a library, a gym and a theater, so I'd assume those kinds of services still exist...but what does a present day kid do? Does the military provide anything like youth centers on base?

(where this is leading, of course, is what kinds of extra-curriculars are there to keep kids busy?)

Thanks,

Guy

Eamonn says something interesting, which I think should be examined: (And lets be honest in most cases it is the parents who end up selling the stuff!)

I have a couple of immediate reactions to this statement, the first of which is something that Dear Abby says: nobody can take advantage of you without your permission.

The second comes from my own experience...I was fourth in line, so by the time my parents got to me, they were fairly weary with everything. Once I was past the Cub Scout stage, I was on my own, especially with regards to fundraising. The other part of that is that I didn't really know what to do, but I figured it out along the way. I didn't know it at the time, but I worked on developing a sales pitch. It didn't work at first, but it came with practice.

By the time my troop got around to selling Christmas trees, my scoutmaster fed me several interesting nuggets which I still remember to this day. Such as "listen to the customer"...one tree-buying customer, a woman, told me "I like trees like my husband, big and tall". After that, I started to focus on, first of all, who is the decision maker, and if it was a wife, I checked out her husband...short and fat? Tall and skinny? It was a good place to start in terms of picking out trees!

My point is that this stuff doesn't happen automatically. It is a teaching moment. Fundraising is a skill, just like any other skill, mental, athletic, musical or whatever. It has to be taught/learned, and it has to be practiced. If it bypasses the scout straight to the parents, then the scout isn't really gaining anything from the experience, right?

If I may also chime in with an opinion

To me, it seems like I had nonstop fundraisers from the time of joining cubs all the way through high school band. By the time I was a scout, I already had a notion of what a sales pitch is and how to use it. It really wasn't difficult to sell at all, however it wasn't like I was plopped in front of a box of stuff and told to go sell it.

By the time I hit high school band, I had a pretty good sense of what would sell and what wouldn't, and when the band boosters group plopped a box of crap in front of us and told us to go sell it, I didn't. To me, it was a complete waste of time to try selling something that wouldn't sell. On the other hand, a year later, we were selling some amazing chocolate fudge candy bars that were relatively cheap. We were allowed to sell at school (there was no lunch period, only an official "snack time") and honestly those things sold themselves. Kids would see us carrying the boxes and would buy them.

With my kids now, I see endless fundraisers at school, with sports teams and with cubs. Luckily, the scout troop hasn't kicked in (yet). Personally, I think the neighborhood "sales pool" and the multiple kids selling stuff, is really saturated. It seems to never stop. As a result, my kids only participate in one or two a year.

So I think for fundraisers to be really successful, all this stuff has to be looked at. Are kids burnt out? Is the market saturated? Can you find a "killer app" fundraiser that will make everything else insignificant? (for example, my old scout troop started selling Christmas trees, and 30+ years later still finds it to be very successful...one fundraiser a year, for about three weeks worth of effort).

Guy

One other thing I should probably point out...I think we were an exceptionally well-prepared troop back then. For example, we "practiced" for months before the '73 national jamboree. Our scoutmaster reasoned with us that if we knew how to lay out, set up and tear down our camp quickly, and prepare and clean up meals quickly, then we could maximize our time in program areas. We had that same attitude going in to our own summer camps as well.

My oldest just crossed over from Webelos in April, and I'm a new volunteer in his troop. So far, I have purposefully stayed away from his first couple of campouts, and will stay away from summer camp when he goes in a couple of weeks. Not only do I want him to build separate relationships with the adults and scouts of his troop, I also want them to discover his personality all on their own (however, when they went hiking in NH last month, I had warned a few of the adults that he is an extremely slow hiker -- they chose to dismiss that, but then told me when I got back that he was, gasp, an extremely slow hiker...uh, no kidding, guys). When I do start going on campouts, I will enjoy hearing stories about their discoveries.

So far, the only related conversations I've had with my new Tenderfoot is related to the fact that he's no longer a Cub Scout, and he doesn't get led around from achievement to achievement, and that he is entirely responsible for his own advancement. The only problem is that he doesn't have a whole lot of self-direction, so I'm torn about prodding him versus letting him figure it out on his own (which I know is the right thing to do).

Hi Scott...

Summer camp on your own is a wonderful thing, and it's too bad more troops don't try it (although I understand the reasons why they don't).

When I was a scout, we did it on our own twice (at a park more than six hours away from home), and the other years we were at the local council camp. Looking back, I am amazed at how much program was offered in our own camp. Then again, I also realize how many troop dads had to help out. In fact, one functioned as our commissary "officer" doing daily grocery runs for 40-50 kids and adults. I just learned a few weeks ago that he actually got a lot of donations from local grocery stores. This was in The Middle of Nowhere, MI.

By the time I was 16, the "wilderness camp" idea was nothing new to me, so when I went into Brownsea 22 training, it was a "been there, done that" kind of experience.

Welcome to the group...

Also -- the notion of Class is new to me. Is it just a relative measure of council size? Does it have any other hidden meaning?

Thanks...Guy...

Thanks, Ed.

Where did those 5/2008 numbers come from? The latest I could find on the BSA site were 2007 figures. I also find it interesting that in the 2007 figures, youth membership was 2.8M and the 2008 numbers have it at 3.8M. That's a nice increase!

Guy

YMCA is another obvious one, although it somehow feels different. It is not just solely a youth organization, it has a much wider appeal than that. Even so, 9.4M youth (as of 2006) and over 20M total members.

One answer: Boys and Girls Clubs of America, 4.8M youth.

Girl Scouts, on Wikipedia, is estimated at 2.7M youth, 928K adults.

Okay, my fault...I couldn't find the numbers before, but I did some more digging today and found this: http://www.scouting.org/Media/AnnualReports/2007/12memsummary.aspx

End of 2007, total youth membership, around 2.9M, total adult volunteers, 1.1M, in ~121,000 units.

I'd seen various numbers for councils, but since I didn't see the same number twice, I used an estimate of "somewhere around 350".

Even so, that puts an average council size, more or less, at about 8650.

Interesting to hear about these "monster councils", because for each one of them, there would have to be several smaller (below the average size) councils to make the average work out.

Anyway, thanks for the input. I can't even begin to guess how an SE can keep tabs on a council even as large as 10K youth, 4K adult.

Which brings up another point: which youth organizations have memberships as large as 3.9M (youth and adult), or more? Little League, maybe?

Guy

I'd heard from my DE that we're in a council of about 10k youth members, and 4k adult volunteers (5 districts -- this is Yankee Clipper council, north of Boston). I wasn't thinking it is a particularly large council, but once I started thinking about the math, I came to the conclusion it might be. For example, it we have somewhere around 350 councils and 1M youth members, that puts the average council size at about 3K youth members (give or take, with plenty of rounding error).

So, what about your council (whomever you may be)?

I'm relatively new (my son joined a couple of months ago, but I was a scout when I was a kid) and I've already started volunteering at the district level.

In an email conversation with my old scoutmaster, he remarked that he hadn't ever experienced such a level of dedicated group of adults, or run into any finer people, than when he started volunteering. In my short time volunteering, I've had pretty much the same experience. What a great group of people, and I am happy (so far!) to be working with them.

How about talking to your local district commissioner (or chairman, or executive)? Maybe they have some suggestions where they really need some help. Perhaps they could really use a unit commissioner to work with local cub scout packs.

Thanks, eolesen...I appreciate your input.

Since joining (late April), I've been to two district events, one of which was the May roundtable (roundtables in our district are suspended during the summer, which I think is odd because I tend to have more free time during the summer than I do during the school year). Despite our district having between 40 and 50 units, I think there were only 6 other scouters at the roundtable. But I have started to notice some of the same people at events, and I've slowly started to learn names and roles.

I've traded email with my old Scoutmaster and he's told me that some of the most dedicated people he's ever met, and some of the finest people he's ever met, are the volunteers at the district and council level that he has worked with.

I didn't see the show, nor do I watch Deal or No Deal other times...but, to be fair, I could see a scenario where the show's producers may not only have encouraged him to wear a uniform but also to move the patch to the pocket so that it might be more visible to a viewing audience.

I think John-in-KC is right -- kids should naturally outgrow present uniforms, and if the only new ones that national provides are the updated ones, the choice is clear ("you can have any color you want as long as it is black").

I joined circa '71, and new uniforms were introduced late '72 or so (the red berets -- wow, just in time for the '73 National Jamboree!). We went to the Jamboree, and I don't recall if it was mandated by national or not, but all of us in the troop bought multiple uniforms shirts, pants, etc. so that we were correctly uniformed for the jamboree. By the time I outgrew those, I added the forest green "Leadership Corps" shirts, which is what we wore on summer camp staff as well.

Another anecdote I remember was on an overnight at Fort Riley, KS, on our way back from Philmont. That evening, in one of the mess halls, I think we were something of a novelty (or maybe those guys just didn't get all that many visitors) and we had gathered a small crowd. One of them said to us, "boys, stay as far away from them green uniforms as you can" which we thought was pretty funny.

If it makes any difference, I am part of the same district, and have recently met the 'zoid and talked with him directly about these same issues. I can attest to his altruism in these matters, and I believe he has no hidden agenda. He has plainly stated what his agenda is (youth"-ful" representation on the EB).

His dad is also a long-time Scouter, and I give credit to the 'zoid for recognizing life beyond the troop, and the district, and his desire to continue serving as a Scouter.

Guy

Thanks...Fall '09 is the next session in our council. I promise I will pre-register as soon as they open it up .

(BTW, my local DE said that he completed WB out of council, but in my case, I think it would be better if I did it in-council, just to meet other local scouters)

Guy(This message has been edited by GKlose)

My kids have belonged to three out of the four packs in our town, and in every case, the B&G has been treated as an end-of-year awards ceremony (and pack activity is suspended until the following fall). The banquets have been anywhere from late March to mid May.

I haven't liked this at all, but it is next to impossible for an outsider to make a change to "the way things have always been done", and the general attitude of "crank kids through the program to get them their patches."

I'm back after an extended weekend trip...many thanks to everyone for your replies.

It's not so much a case of worry as it is an absolute refusal for me to enter into any situation completely ignorant. Partial ignorance usually works out much better .

Guy

Thanks BobWhite and LisaBob, it does help quite a bit.

Guy

Thanks...in my council, WB is offered every other year, and the next course would be coming up in '09. I'm trying to read a bit before I start thinking about next year's WB. I'm new as a registered adult and will be dealing with NLE/LPST/OLT as they come up this next year.

BobWhite offers a brief explanation of WB in his post, but that's all pretty clear from what is available online. But the nature of ticket items aren't really explained -- I've heard from a district-level guy who organized district and council events for his ticket -- but I am actually seeking examples of the kinds of stuff that unit-level volunteers do for their tickets. I realize that tickets are individualized, and I'm not trying to fish for ideas or try and fill out my ticket. I'm just trying to glean the scope and scale of those items.

So, I'll give a concrete example: a local unit just organized a district camporee (that went very well), and I imagine one or more of those unit leaders could have used something like that as a ticket item. However, I doubt the average newbie could pull off something like that. It might take awhile to build networks and contacts, and learn the way the district tends to operate, and learn the way large events are handled. If that is what an average unit-level leader ticket item is like, then I could see a newbie putting off WB until a knowledge base has been built.

I'm sorry to be so wordy, and I've tried reading back through a few months of old messages, I just haven't seen much of the way of examples.

Thanks,

Guy

I'm curious...I've read a bit, but don't fully understand tickets. Maybe if I heard some examples it might make more sense to me. Would anyone care to share some example ticket items for a unit-level leader taking WB?

Thanks,

Guy

I'm a newly-registered adult volunteer, and I think I'll wait before buying a uniform, just see what the new duds looks like in person (I guess I'm kind of disturbed by the pocketage too), and hope that old shirts are still available in case I don't like the new ones.

But the real purpose of my note is this: as I recall, when I was a newish scout back in 1972, one of our JASM's went off to the Philmont Training Center for a course. When he came back, he not only had a new uniform to model for us, and he had grand stories of the new program (skill awards, et al). I remember thinking it was all very cool at the time.

So my guess now is that, in general, scouts will welcome the change, and parents will not, perhaps hoping for aging out or growth spurts before changing anything.

(My own son will probably outgrow his tan shirt within a year, so we'll wait -- I'm not so sure about the 2-for-1 switchbacks, though -- if those last awhile, he'll be wearing them awhile)

I wasn't a CM or ACM (I started as a Tiger Cub DL), but if I were to start all over again, now that I understand the program and goals, I would seek out training (and I have as my older has transitioned into a troop).

Rather than just guess what the program was all about (and I thought I knew, because I had been a Cub), I would immediately take fast start and youth protection training. I doubt they took me over 20 minutes each. The committee challenge was fun and easy too.

I think the single most useful thing one can do is to get buy-in from those involved to run a pack the way it is supposed to be run. That is, pick a strong committee, CC and CM. If everyone helps, the program isn't monstrously difficult to implement. Pick DLs, but train them in the program.

There are also tons of online resources, which others have pointed out. A couple hours spent reading those can give one a great idea about what the program is all about.