GKlose

One more thing -- (sorry for all the traffic)

The SM is sort of catching on...at the last planning session, there was a brief discussion where he mentioned that nobody was supposed to fail a BoR, and that in training it had been recommended to him that SM Conferences should not be sitting down, face to face, rather it should be an informal conversation while doing something else, say a walk or something like that.

I haven't witnessed a conference, so I don't know how the conversation has been working out. I have heard, though, that since the SM was a last minute Eagle, he strongly encourages those that are close to get cracking, that it sneaks up on you very quickly.

Thanks, Nike -- that's kind of what I've already done.

When an "examiner" immediately jumped in on "tell me the warning signs of a heart attack" I went another direction. I would say something like "you're supposed to have been on X number of outings, can you tell me which ones you enjoyed and which ones you didn't?" and then go down the path of asking what he'd liked the most, what he liked the least, what he might change, did he learn anything at a patrol-oriented camporee, etc.

The Star candidate who was nervous -- I recall asking him which merit badges he'd already earned, what he liked about them, which ones he planned on working on, his interests, that sort of thing.

I'm learning too, as I go along...I know very little about these scouts at this point.

At the same time, I've been working on preparing my son. Even though I don't like that part of the troop culture, I warned him that the BoRs were tests, and that he had better know everything backwards and forwards.

Thanks, Ed -- you pegged it about the adult-led versus scout-led. The SM acknowledged that they were trying to move in the direction of scout-led (and I'm not exactly sure when it strayed).

Also, thanks Lisabob -- this district's training is only for CS leaders. I'm heading out of district for my training in a few weeks. I asked the reason for no in-district training, but it's a long story. Put simply, they're rebuilding the district.

Re: six dads and six scouts camping. I've already started to ask, when I noticed the issue. For example, at the last planning meeting I made the comment, and said that I'd like to find out more about why some don't go camping much. I got a half-answer about the older kids being less-interested, and the need for the high adventure trip the next summer.

The troop is presently not so much bi-polar as it is bi-modal. One new scout (my son), a bunch in the 2nd class working on 1st class range (all in the middle school range), and a handful of older ones. One recent Eagle, who seems "done" to put it politely, and another "done" that is almost Eagle. That leaves two or three in the Star-Life range, I think, maybe more. I haven't seen everyone all at one time yet, and I haven't seen a current roster. 20 total is just an estimate, and 6/6 on campouts is an average. Good attendance at summer camp this year, except for most older scouts who went to "Eagle Camp."

BTW, I've made a recommendation already, kind of off to the side. I recommended to the SM that he send the SPL to either NYLT or Brownsea, maybe both, and have the troop cover the cost. I don't think he went, perhaps because of the family's summer vacation and the camp schedule. Next summer, it will likely be a different SPL with a different set of issues.

Sorry, BW...I'll correct the profile. I had assumed that I was being registered as an ASM, but when I got my card last week (finally!) it said I was a committee member. Sorry for being misleading --

I have no idea if the CC has taken the Troop Committee Challenge (I did it online), but I'm pretty sure he did the weekend training that everyone else did. It could possibly be they had a Troop Committee Challenge component (I'm training in a few weeks, and my session does break out that way with the leader specific part). But I understand your point -- I am posting assumptions here, when I don't really know the full and correct answers.

And lest I be understood -- these are a great group of adults with the troop. They're friendly, and welcoming, and they really seem to enjoy being with the troop. I just think they have a lot of tribal knowledge and folklore built up over time.

Here's a story: I went to a roundtable session where the presenter on the topic of "annual troop planning" was the former SM (and now COR) of this same troop. He waxed poetic about PLCs running the show. But, today, in this same troop there is no PLC in sight. So I think something was lost along the way on leadership transition.

Guy

Wow, thanks everybody. I think you're zeroing in on exactly what I think has been going on.

Several additional points (I didn't want to bog down the original note):

I am a committee member, not an ASM. To date, while my son has been growing into the troop, I've avoided going camping with the troop. So, the six dads, six scouts thing is sort of anecdotal. Yes, it seems to be the same core, and from what I hear from my son, the dads are very involved (cooking, tenting with their kids in some cases, etc). I'll know more about that once I start attending.

So far, my primary focus has been membership. It is something I've paid attention to since my son was transitioning over the course of this last year. I have ideas that I think can help the troop, and the first one of which is providing a joint Webelos-Scout overnight this fall. I'm hoping to turn over the actual program of the day to scouts, and try to pull the adults aside with the Webelos parents attending.

The CC seems to run all BoRs, and he is the first one turning it into an exam. I'm not entirely sure about his training, but I think he and several ASMs did the fast start, leader specific and outdoor leadership program about a year ago. All are less than two years in their roles, and other than the SM, I think all were not scouts as kids.

The incident with the Star candidate and the bowline: I wasn't at the original BoR the prior month...he was asked to come back the following month knowing the bowline. He was most likely handed a piece of rope and asked to tie a few knots from the basics list. Going in to the next month, I heard that he was returning for the "re-test", and they were specifically looking for a few things, including the bowline. We're around a round table, and I'm sitting next to the candidate. He's says that he's practiced, but comes across as very nervous (honestly, at that age I may have been nervous too). He's asked for two half hitches, he ties it looking confused, and asks "is this right?". With the bowline, he's struggling by working with both ends. After a few aborted attempts, I step in and ask "may I assist?" and do so by holding one end and telling him to try it with just the other end. He struggles a bit more, and I can't honestly say that I felt he knew it, but I didn't see the point of belaboring the issue. The board moved on, and he was signed off.

And thanks, I've tried a few gentle questions, offering opinions along the way. A few days ago, we had a planning meeting (there isn't a PLC, so there is no PLC planning session -- I know, that's another red flag, but I can't bulldoze through here, can I?) and they were debating a high adventure outing for next summer. I finally suggested that the group of older scouts that are likely to attend be asked to come up with a plan, and also give their preference of activity, say canoeing or backpacking.

The last thing I want to do is try and take on True North as my project. There are just way too many red flags, and that would be rather presumptuous of me. I wouldn't want to come across as the guy coming in from the outside trying to change everything.

Maybe my best strategy, for the moment, would be to ask if they've done the BoR training (I haven't either, so maybe that's the opening needed).

Again, thanks for all your input. I really like reading of others' experiences and anecdotes.

Guy

I'm spinning this off because I think it warrants a separate discussion.

Any reader of this forum, or "Ask Andy" (BTW, does Andy read and contribute to this forum?) knows that one hot topic is the Board of Review being treated as an exam.

My son joined a troop a few months ago, and I've joined as a committee member as well. The SM is an Eagle, but I think the rest of the troop committee and ASMs are relatively inexperienced. We have monthly boards, for whomever is ready for rank advancement. I've sat in on four or five so far, mostly second class and first class, and one Star board.

The SM explained to my son, for his Tenderfoot board, that "it's like a test." And it is. This board grills fairly well, and isn't afraid to "fail" a scout until the next month, and the scout is given pretty direct feedback ("you need to work on ---"). In fact, the Star board that I sat in on was such a re-test, and in particular, this scout could not properly tie a bowline during his first board. For the re-test, he said that he was ready, but in fact he was quite nervous, and was failing miserably with knots. He kept tying and asking "is this right?". He still struggled with the bowline (he was handling both ends of the rope, and I finally asked "may I assist?" and held one end of the rope to try and re-focus him), but ultimately he was passed.

The CC and ASMs usually sit on the boards, never the SM, and in one case a scout (a recent Eagle) sat in on a board. Questioning on all ranks covers the ranks earned to date. So, the bowline is considered open season at a Star board, for example.

So, here's the issue...this all makes me very uncomfortable. I don't like the policy and the implementation. But I'm new, and I'm sensitive to the fact that I shouldn't go in and try and change any aspect of the troop culture. When possible, I've jumped in with what I consider to be positive questions, not exam questions.

On the other hand, I see scouts that do horribly with these exams, and in lots of cases, these scout skill questions are really stumping them. I'm not so sure they are learning these things properly.

As a side note, the SM admits that the patrol method in this troop is weak, and that they are trying to change. On the other hand, weekend outings have been, roughly speaking, six dads and six scouts (even though the troop has about 20 scouts total). Definitely a father-son type method.

Does anyone have any experience with re-orienting a troop that follows this path?

I liked the red beret too, but I think it was pretty idiotic looking when it wasn't worn the right way (and lots of scouts didn't wear it the right way).

If the trail bread was called "Hudson Bay Bread" then you can google all kinds of recipes. It is like a pressed, molded granola bar, cut into pieces.

If it was something else, then I don't know.

Of course that's their desire -- 1M+ shirts/pants/accessories sold in less than a year. What would that come out to profit-wise, $50M? $100M?

But I doubt it would happen.

I, too, saw the new uniform this last weekend at the local Scout shop...or at least as much of it that is stocked at the moment...they had no new switchbacks, or adult-sized supplex shirts (but plenty of 60/40 shirts, just not long-sleeved ones), or adult-sized belts. But -- I think the hats, belts and socks look nice.

I can't recall it being mentioned yet, but to me the most disappointing part is the quality of the American flag on the sleeve. It looks cheap, and I think it is glued on. I could see it flapping up after a few washings.

As almost everyone else has mentioned, I think the sleeve pocket looks cheesy too, but that isn't nearly as big of a deal as a poor quality American flag.

The clerk at the Scout shop was wearing the new uniform and I didn't even notice it at first. Then after he said they didn't have "relaxed fit" pants, I noticed how ill-fitting his own pants were. He looked uncomfortable.

How can you possibly find a "rule" that doesn't exist?

Toss it back...ask for proof of "only allowed to go out once with a troop".

I don't have the requirements in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that one of the options of Outdoorsman is to camp overnight with a troop, and then there is one overnight part of AoL (which must be distinct from the Outdoorsman overnight)...so that's two right there.

A little less than a year ago, my Webelos II kid was contemplating which of four troops in town to join...one was a hard-charging high adventure type, one was a laid-back ordinary "troop method" program, one was a small "family camping" sort (parents and siblings go on most trips) and one was a Webelos III type of troop.

I visited another troop in an adjacent town, where the SM (who was letting his SPL and PLs run the meeting) talked with us parents, feeding us lines like "in Cub Scouts they're boys, but in Boy Scouts they're adolescents learning skills for adulthood" and "we ask that for the first year parents stay home and let us work with their sons".

Unfortunately, my son didn't want to drive to the adjacent town (and they met on an evening where I have a regular commitment). He chose the laid-back troop method program, where he happened to know one older kid. Three months later, of course, he knows everybody (and at least they are trying to become more patrol method).

BW, it's also in the Scout Handbook (stating, "with approval of your Scoutmaster").

Actually, Steve, I'm rather impressed with the long-running "Laughs for Lunch" program that you run. It would seem like quite a breeding ground for learning how to ham it up a bit.

Please refresh my memory -- is it something you do as a fundraiser?

I recall a long time ago, maybe my first year in my troop, my rather young scoutmaster tried MCing a town-wide talent show (complete with bad jokes between acts) that went over pretty well. He only did it once, and I'm not sure why.

I wonder how far back it really goes -- we were doing this in the early 70s!

BTW, my kids (ages 11 and 9) just saw the Melrose YouTube video of "The Pickpocket" and they think it's the funniest thing they've ever seen!

YPT and Fast Start took about 20 minutes each online.

Honestly, I think they were really well done, and well worth the time.

(you certainly get more than you pay for!)

Guy

I don't know this for sure, but my guess is that national was so enamored of the belt loop idea that when they dropped BS skill awards they made sure the concept was used somewhere else. To my knowledge, the CS belt loops didn't exist in the '67-'71 era (which is when I went through cubs).

My old PL/SPL/Eagle/best-friend/college-roommate was taught how to sew (not tailor) by his mom as a kid.

You'd think that might pay adult dividends some day, but in his case he found dividends in an unexpected place. When in college, while studying architecture, he joined a team building an inflatable fabric structure, and he became the primary "production" manager, sewing together very large strips of fabric with commercial sewing machines. He told me they were just like the old Singer sewing machines, just larger (and sturdier). He was able to repair several of them himself, without resorting to returning machines or waiting for service calls (which they didn't have the budget for).

But, the fact of the matter is, had he earned a Tailoring (or Sewing) MB I would have made sure he didn't hear the end of it from the entire troop. Life skill or not.

Depends on the condition of the car

My Webelos years would have been '70/71 or so, but I don't remember much about them. We didn't really concentrate on advancement (so I didn't earn AoL, although I remember quite a few activities that would have counted for AoL). One of the most memorable experiences was that our WDL took us to a meeting of every troop in town (there were about six troops back then). When I originally entered the meeting for one troop, I knew it was the one I wanted to join. One thing that helped was that I immediately saw kids I knew from school.

The "troop meeting tour" was such a big thing for me, that when my son was a Webelos II this last year, I took him to every troop in town (4 troops). Not everyone in his den came with us. A mom or two was confused ("I thought we were supposed to join Troop XX" -- the troop this pack "feeds"). No, you can join any troop you want, including a troop in another town.

So, when I moved into a troop, I had no Crossover (I didn't know the "bridging ceremony" existed until a couple of years ago). But, I couldn't wait to join. My older brothers had been cubs and scouts (but none stuck with it). Once I joined, there was no looking back.

I guess what I'm saying is that, for me, Webelos wasn't all that big of a deal back then. I had my eyes ahead on joining a troop.

This is side commentary, but...

One of the highlights of my troop when I was a scout was our annual caving trip. We lived in southern OH, and would leave one Friday afternoon in March, after school, to drive 4+ hours south to a state park in KY. Carter Caves, S.P. We'd arrive and setup camp, and then go on a night hike (once we even had a campfire in a cave).

The next morning, we'd be up early and go out to explore one or more of the many caves in the park, and occasionally a cave on private property (one took ropes and harnesses to get down into). Some "commerical" caves (with a marked path and lighting), some guided trips, to full wild caves on our own (with carbide lamps and hard hats).

One year, our SM offered us incentive for a fundraiser...the four top-sellers were allowed to choose a trip that the troop would pay for. We chose to go caving (I was one of the four). Same trip, different time of year, so the flora and fauna (bats!) were completely different.

Of all the peak experiences I had in that troop, the annual caving trip was one of the peakiest .

Have fun...

Guy

My newly crossed-over son was working on memorizing his handbook, shortly after it was presented to him, and he pointed out that Arrow of Light recipients were to be automatically awarded the Scout badge (it's in the handbook).

The SM had a different idea..."no, you have to go through a Board of Review...it's like a test" (since then, I've found out that yes, they treat BoRs as tests, with questions ranging from all previous ranks). I did manage to point out to the CC that only an SM conference was listed under joining requirements, not a BoR, so they didn't grill him.

Unit leaders have all kinds of funny ideas about what is required and what isn't. Tribal knowledge and folklore seems to play a big part in that, and to me some of the worst offenders appear to be some of those that have been around a long time, and didn't necessarily see the need for training.

My oldest was at camp this last week, and one of the dads who spent the week with the troop is a reservist. A few years back he had been deployed in Iraq, in a hospital. I asked him, "so which would you choose, camp food or food while on deployment?" He didn't hesistate and said, "no contest -- camp food -- by far." He then went on to explain that he didn't really consider MREs to be food.

I just ordered, and received, a couple of old handbooks via amazon.com. One of them is the 1969 printing of the 7th edition. In it, Cooking is a required MB. I also know from personal experience that the 1972 8th edition had removed it. I also remember that Environmental Science was added, in favor of Soil and Water Conservation, and options were added for some required MBs (e.g., Lifesaving or Emergency Preparedness).

Guy

I joined in May '71, and earned the bulk of 1/C by that fall. Honestly, I don't remember the cooking requirements (I've ordered, for the sake of nostalgia, an old handbook via amazon.com). By the time I was working on Star+, I was on the new handbook, dressed with my red beret I don't know when Cooking MB was taken off the Eagle-required list, but I think it was gone by the '72 requirements.