GKlose

At a training event, an experienced old guy told us "of course, the plural of Webelos is Webelii" (but he was kidding).

My opinion is that as soon as Webelos have the Arrow of Light (and are at least 10-1/2 years old) they should be with a Scout troop. They have pretty much gained everything from Cub Scouts that they were meant to gain.

If they don't have the AoL yet, and have turned 11, or have finished 5th grade, there again I think they should be in a Scout troop, unless they have a strong desire to finish AoL (some advance planning might have prevented that circumstance, though).

I can say from personal experience, that I've handled it wrong once and I am planning better for Cub #2. Cub #1 turned 11 in October of his Webelos 2 year. He finished AoL by April, and was quite anxious to move on to Scouts (had I known better, he could have finished AoL months earlier, which I think he would have liked to do).

Cub #2 turned 10 in early September, and has started his Webelos 1 year. By March, he's planning on finishing everything for AoL, so he can be done with Cubs. He doesn't really enjoy the pack meetings at all, or any of the large events we've been to (Webelos Woods, Webelos Arrow of Light Weekend). He's not even sure he wants to be a scout, I think he just wants to be done.

Thanks, CalicoPenn --

I've been using lump for over a year (Cowboy brand, but I realize that is relatively low-quality lump) and I just learned something from what you wrote.

I've found that it lights fast (in a chimney, of course), and that it burns hot and fast. But I've been using it in a Weber kettle. So that explains the fast part. We do reuse the leftover pieces when there are some.

This particular brand leaves a bit of ash, but I've heard that other higher-quality brands leave less ash.

Guy

I was at a district committee meeting last night, and the committee is quite pleased with this year's sales so far. Roughly speaking, same dollar value as last year (as of 9/30) but fewer items sold.

The discussion quickly degenerated into opinions about the impact of this year's price increases on overall sales ("you're not paying for popcorn, you're paying for Scouting!").

So what do all of you think? Are things better, worse, about the same? Seeing any difference due to price changes?

I'm kind of on the periphery...neither of my kids' units sells popcorn (troop has other fundraisers as needed, and the pack goes the annual dues route).

Guy

This might be reading too much into the situation, but it is very important to realize this isn't a Webelos den any more. These are young scouts who are to be responsible for their own advancement. They need to make arrangements to be signed off as requirements are stepped through (learned, tested, reviewed).

Also, as a side note, all requirements T through 1C can be worked on at any time. For example, maybe the patrol or the troop holds some kind of First Aid activity that covers all levels...a single scout could work on them all at the same event.

I suppose every troop is different, but our troop has a PL sign-off, and an SPL review, of rank requirements before the final SM conference. It is my son's responsibility to make sure he meets with the PL and then the SPL before the SPL recommends him for going forward. (there's no new scout patrol in this troop because my son is the one new scout this year; so, no troop guides; he learns skills from a variety of sources -- here's an example -- it was a cold and rainy week at summer camp this year, so my son didn't go swimming during the week; while back at home, he went to the local Y for swimming lessons, which coincidentally were taught by a kid who is an Eagle from the same troop. The instructor stepped him through both 2C, 1C and swimmer's test requirements a few times as part of his normal lessons, and then sent in a note to the scoutmaster that my son had completed everything.).

Please forgive my ignorance, but is a Denner like a patrol leader for a Webelos Den?

If so, voted or appointed?

Thanks...Guy...

Since nothing has happened yet with him as an adult leader (or did I miss this in your post?), why not head things off at the pass? Get him a copy of GTSS, and have him do the online training (Fast Start and Youth Protection). Then get him into more district and council-level training. See if he's really serious about being an adult leader (and if he shirks training, he probably isn't ready). Follow it up with periodic talks with him, about the importance of putting scout and unit safety first. This may be his first big chance to really mature as an adult.

As far as other committee members go, I'd say placate them for now ("he's on a short leash") to see whether or not the new ASM really steps up.

Guy

While I don't run a troop, I do use email for just about everything. Contact with other committee members, contact with district people, etc.

On the whole, I find it frustrating. I am not convinced every reads the email, or reads it thoroughly. I recently sent out a message with two questions in it, and got one answer.

Here's another example: an event is on the troop schedule, which everyone has. At last week's meeting, a reminder went out to scouts there that there was an event coming up. Since I knew they wouldn't necessarily remember to remind their parents, I sent out an email message to about 20 sets of parents (maybe 30 email addresses) that same night. Net responses, one saying they would at the event. About 5 days later, I sent out a reminder, and I got another two responses. That leaves about 17 to go.

Guy

Although others have experience with this sort of thing, and will jump in with a correction --

Let me point out that "Venturing" is a completely separate program from a Boy Scout troop.

A "Venture Patrol" exists within a Boy Scout troop.

They are two distinct ideas, and are commonly confused. I was just at weekend training where the confusion reigned once again. The trainer, with some prompting, corrected everyone. And at that very same moment, another scouter walked up and added his two cents about a "Venturing Patrol" and the "Venture program" (I kid you not!).

Hmmm, I thought Brownsea 22 was available everywhere, but I guess I'm wrong. It definitely is available in my council, but then again, they just call it Brownsea training (the "22" has historical significance).

As I recall, Brownsea 22 was introduced nationally sometime around 1976 (I was in my old council's first "graduating class" as it were). It was kind of a "back to the basics" patrol method youth leadership training, patterned after B-P's very first week-long encampment on Brownsea Island. If you recall the program revisions of 1973, it's kind of interesting that national saw fit to introduce "back to the basics" only a few years later.

In any case, my local council now offers two youth leadership training weeks. They commonly refer to NYLT as "Woodbadge for Boys" and consider Brownsea training to be more oriented around patrol method.

Guy

GW, I understand where both you and BW are coming from (I take all these sources, just like this forum, with a grain of salt). Honestly, I read a lot. I've read current manuals (and will be re-reading them), I've read a few old manuals, I've read the BSA website, and done online training, council training, and I read online forums. All with a fairly open mind, I hope.

The training this last weekend went well. I'm not sure if giving specific details would be all that important -- I would guess that some of my comments could kick off digressions similar to what happens all the time on this forum. No need to revisit old territory.

BW's instinct were correct. Lots of material was glossed over, and many times our course segments would digress into all sorts of side discussion not unlike what happens here. Yes, I will be getting the training materials I don't have yet, and reading those.

I did hear a couple things that my understanding differed with, and in one case I spoke to the trainer between sessions, not to correct him, but to clear up what I thought the group was misunderstanding (due to the questions and comments going back and forth). The trainer then said that he would clarify the topic as soon as our next session started (and he did).

The incident related to Venturing. The trainer had mentioned venture patrols, and it somehow blended into Venturing. After a moment, it became very clear that some of those asking questions didn't understand the distinction, and the trainer didn't catch that some questions were for venture patrols and some were for Venturing (questions about registering with Boy Scouts until 1st Class, and then continuing towards Eagle while part of a crew). So I thought there were quite a few confused participants. We then took a break, and I talked to the trainer (who appreciated me saying something to him).

When we resumed, he did take a minute to talk about the idea that venture patrols and Venturing were completely separate things, and that the Venturing program was distinct from the Boy Scout program (while a venture patrol exists within a Boy Scout troop). All was well and good at that point, except that another Scouter walked up behind him at that very moment and put in his two cents worth about "venturing patrols" and "venture crews" (and I did a virtual smack of my forehead -- things were going so well up to that point!).

So, I'm kind of in the middle with this weekend training. I did get something out of it, and I understand BW's point that I may have possibly missed quite a bit. The course organizer agrees too...they are going to be offering an expanded Outdoor Leader Skills course sometime later this year, and they have invited us to drop in on it to make up for some of what we missed this weekend.

Guy

If you're interested, I'll give a full report, maybe Monday AM.

An addendum -- this is out of district for me. My district only does Cub leader training. It's a long story, but the district is rebuilding.

The council handles Woodbadge every other year, and just started University of Scouting this year. I'm not sure if they do any of the other standard courses. I'm having a difficult enough time trying to figure out the district.

Thanks, BW...I hear you on the time aspect. I've already bought a couple of documents and have read them (for example, not only did I buy a scoutmasters handbook, I bought an old one too, to see how things have changed -- the old ones are surprisingly well-written and informative). I've also been reading this forum and AskAndy since April.

There is one place where I will probably get myself in trouble. Say a trainer makes some comment that I know is not true. I have trouble handling those situations (and certainly other trainees don't want a P.I.T.A. fellow trainee). What I'll probably do is make some notes and make sure the other guys from my troop hear an alternate side of the story.

Guy

Starts tonight (weekend training: New Leader Essentials, Position-Specific Training, and Outdoor Skills), and I'm pretty excited about it, after months of waiting.

Woodbadge is next offered in the council a year from now, and I'll probably be signing up for that.

As a side note, I've worn Thorlo light hiking socks for years, and the $12-14 price is not out of line. campmor.com can be spot-checked for pricing.

The best way to describe it might be that my dance skills kept me off the dance floor and my personality probably had a good deal to do with young ladies avoiding me. No reeking required :-).

On another note, Tenderfoot son just entered middle school, but he's still just a kid. He doesn't like to bathe unless he has to. I keep telling him it takes just one slip-up to be labeled Mr. Stinky, and that it might take three or four years to live it down. I've also talked with his mom, saying that if she wishes to do all his future girlfriends a favor she should teach him how to dance because he wouldn't be learning anything useful from me.

Luckily, I wasn't there to "witness" the reeking effect :-), but I took his statement to mean that yes, the synthetic shirt had the effect of absorbing and transmitting his B.O.

I've heard of this before (AT through-hikers wearing syntheitcs, for example), but haven't noticed it with myself (I did live through the disco era, but I luckily avoided the poly shirt effect you're talking about; at least I think I avoided it).

I have to temper my comments with the idea that this was just one scout I talked to. Maybe he has the wrong impression, or maybe something else is going on. But, it was enough to make me go "hmmmm...possible red flag here." When I visited, everything else about the troop seemed like it was a model troop.

I'll be meeting this kid again, since I'm his MB counselor, so I may ask him a couple of other questions. Perhaps "so, do they want you to come to a percentage of troop activities to be considered active?" and things like that. I also know the UC -- I can always talk to him about the troop.

Stopped in at the local scout store this weekend...this time they had more sizes, so my scouts and I could try on shirts, etc.

The clerk asked me what I thought of the new uniforms, and I said that overall there were many improvements but there were still some things I thought are pretty odd, both of which have been mentioned here: short shirttails and the American Flag decal.

The clerk had the same complaints, but then also mentioned that she had replaced the American Flag decal with an embroidered flag patch on her other shirt. She told me she loosened the decal with an iron and then peeled it off. I asked if the footprints of the two patches were the same and she said they were close enough.

Also -- last week, I spent some time with my DE. When we were talking about the new uniform (he did buy one, but hasn't been wearing it) he mentioned the problems he's had with supplex and reeking after only a short time. Anyone with the new supplex shirt -- have you noticed the same thing?

Guy

I've certainly seen that myself, from troops that were more or less Webelos III to a dying troop to a seemingly model troop in another town. In fact, in this latter case, I met a scout from that troop (in my role as an MB counselor) who told me that his troop wants them to get as much as they can out of the scouting experience and that they don't like their scouts to reach Eagle until they are 17-1/2.

okay, b-dweller. I was off the computer this weekend on a joint Webelos-troop overnight, and it went very well (lots of fun involved, and a few raindrops along the way). One of the coolest parts, to me, was seeing one 15-ish older scouts step into an almost "big brother" type of role with the younger ones.

Okay, Rick. My apologies. I was only trying to convey the point that I think there are some Webelos den leaders that don't really get the process. They are more focused on "getting the badge" than the purpose behind "getting the badge."

Thanks for the responses...I really appreciate them!

Another sort of anecdote...as we traveled to various troop meetings, troops kept talking about "the patrol method". The moms carting their W2 sons to these meetings kept asking "what's that all about?". It was probably a fault of the den leader that parents weren't properly prepared. But the den leader was of the "get them their AoL and then I'm done" (I feel pretty safe saying this here, because I doubt she reads this forum, but this den leader was the same mom that had her kid in non-scout daycamp all summer and didn't send him to scout camp for a week).

I was driving the decision to get these kids to visit all four troops in town, while the other moms had more of the mindset "they visited a troop meeting, that's all they need to do". (sorry if this appears sexist, but in fact I was the only dad on these trips, all other adults were moms)

I don't know if this will ruffle feathers or not, but I've heard it said that the entire purpose of the Webelos II year is to get a boy transitioned to a troop. I would guess that most Webelos den leaders I've met don't see it that way. They feel more inclined to "just get him his AoL badge".

Thanks...in fact, fotoscout, I very much agree with you.

However...in my town, there seems to be distinct separations between packs and troops (even when they share the CO). Webelos den leaders aren't always trained, and are focused on "getting the badge(s)" so two overnights (one for Outdoorsman, one for AoL) and that's it. In our den last year, one mom asked why I was arranging visits to all troops in town and said "but I thought we're supposed to sign up with [troop that shares the school]". On the other side of the fence, troops were very laid-back about recruiting, except for one of them. They were nicely rewarded with 19 out of 20 Webelos crossovers (the one that didn't was my son -- his choice).

So I do see it as a 3-step process:

1. Webelos II den uses AoL to educate/build interest

2. troop puts best foot forward, and recruits

3. troop program retains

(in fact, at the University of Scouting session I attended, the presenter said "first meeting, first outing, first year", which I think is brilliant...get them to a well-planned meeting ASAP after crossover, get them on a fun weekend outing ASAP, and work on the first-year advancement -- BTW, not everybody believes in "first class in the first year", but that is a strategy)

I'll give an anecdote -- just this last week, at a meeting at my Tenderfoot's school, I see a kid from my son's W2 den who went to the other troop. I asked him "so how's the new troop?" and he's all excited, it's great. So I asked him if he went to summer camp, and his face fell a little and he said "no". I said that I was sorry because summer camp is one of the best parts. Meanwhile, mom starts to explain to me that she had him in a non-scout daycamp the whole summer and she wanted to keep him there. I didn't ask him about advancement at the risk of embarrassing him any more than I already had.

I don't want to speculate about the kid's retention, but my son went to summer camp, where it rained all week, and a tornado touched down about two miles away, and he loved it. I think he's hooked.

Hello everyone...I am searching for tips, stories, opinions or whatever is out there for Webelos-to-Scout transition. I've found a number of online resources so far.

To put this in a context, just over a year ago I started thinking about my oldest son's transition with his den, and I started by contacting the local DE in order to get contact information for the troops in town.

Eventually, that experience led to a successful transition of all the Webelos in this pack, and a request for me to join a new membership committee for the district. And that eventually led to me volunteering to host a segment at next month's roundtable on Webelos-to-Scout transition. I hope for my segment to be short -- I would like to hand out a basic outline of how to approach the transition and some links of web resources. Then I hope it digresses into a dialog of unit leaders sharing ideas.

As a side note, I attended the council's University of Scouting this last spring and sat in on two Webelos-to-Scout transition sessions. It was interesting because the first hour covered it from the Cub side, and the second hour covered it from the Scout side. Both sides have distinct views of the transition, and I hope to capture that in my roundtable notes.

So I would appreciate hearing any of your experiences, if you wouldn't mind sharing them with a district up in the northeast :-).

Thanks,

Guy