GKlose

You know, if they had Beagle Scouts, I would sign up in a second.

I'm also trying to figure out that balance between encouraging and letting them show initiative. They very much are kinetic kids -- unless they're pushed a little, they would rot away with video games.

I had the other experience as a kid. My parents, other than being a den mother and a CM, didn't participate much. I think they burned out with my older brothers (cubs and boy scouts, but not for very long). They probably thought I would get disinterested too.

So my strategy is to aspire to encourage without being pushy, and it sure seems like there is a fine line between the two sometimes.

Thanks, Roaring Snoring Bear...I'm kind of on the same page as you...I think I can probably convince him to join, and I have a few angles I can work. He says that he does like camping, so I think with his Outdoorsman badge coming up, and with the required overnights for Arrow of Light, he'll get more camping time in, in a scout setting.

One way I plan on doing this is by telling him that I'm planning on troop camping with my older son, so if he wants to participate, he'll have to join. I'll ask him to try it through at least First Class (by then he'll have a bunch of camping skills, and one or two summer camps). If he isn't hooked into the program by then, there's not much else I can do to change his mind.

I'm also not sure of his real reasoning. He might be resisting because scouts is his brother's thing, and he doesn't want to follow in the shadows. But once I know, I can probably work on some of those angles. Reading him isn't always so easy -- there's what he says, and what he really thinks.

A side note: both of my kids have studied piano since age 3-1/2. There are very specific reasons why I have had them do this, and I tell them the reasons often. But still they go through cycles. They resist, they put in half-effort, they complain. But, in the end, they always succeed at a certain level, and move on to the next level (the annual recitals have a lot to do with that). So, I guess what I'm saying is that they aren't strangers to having to do things they really don't want to do. (I'm perfectly willing to talk about the reasons I have for them studying music, but doing so right now is kind of a digression).

That reminds me of a joke that a friend told me...

In [our state], they recently had to change the drinking age to 35, over concerns of alcohol in elementary schools.

(it took me awhile to catch on)

I would think that every boy is different, and had I read the signals properly, I would have guessed that my son was ready to move up when he turned 11 (I think he was ready for more, and sort of lost interest with what was going on with his W2 den). He didn't seem so interested in actually earning Arrow of Light, but I'm sure that now he has it, he's glad.

My younger son is a completely separate case. He's a W1, turns 10 in a few days. He, too, seems done with Webelos, and doesn't seem to care whether or not he earns the Arrow of Light. But he takes our cues from us ("do you want to earn Arrow of Light?", and he says "maybe, I guess so."). So I tell him one option is to finish the Webelos Badge and Arrow of Light by spring, and then he could cross over. He says he likes camping, but seems to show no interest in moving up to a scout troop (I get the feeling that he wants to be more sports-oriented, so I pointed out to him there are programs for that, such as special merit badges and Varsity Scouts, and he shows mild interest in that).

I wish there were clear-cut answers, but so far there hasn't been for us.

BCWhite - I was in a similar circumstance a year ago. My Webelos II son turned 11 about a month after school started (5th grade). I'll admit I didn't understand the age rules at the time, and he was content to finish earning AoL with his den.

I think that I had I understood the crossover rules properly, I may have encouraged him to finish AoL in his Webelos I year (4th grade, but he turned 10 about a month after school started, and was 10-1/2 by the time the Webelos II den was crossing over).

So, my second son is in the same boat. He starts school tomorrow (4th grade), and turns 10 in less than a week. He will be 10-1/2 by March, and the regular crossover for the pack is in April (I know that most packs do this in February, but this packs marches to its own drummer, which is a story unto itself). I've told him that if he works hard he can do both Webelos I and II activities this fall, and then crossover in April, in order to get to the troop his brother is in earlier. Mom will be happy with that, because I think she is tired of Cub Scout activities (they meet on a night where I'm busy, so she handles the bulk of it). I'll be happy just getting both kids at the same meeting the same night, and have the same weekend activities.

A local troop is considering a trip to the Maine High Adventure area...when I was 16, I did an Allagash Wilderness Waterway trip there with my troop, and it was fantastic (it was a national high adventure area back then). One of my friends loved it so much that he became a guide there the next two summers.

I live up in Brady territory, and I am a Patriots fan -- but when I first saw the cover, a couple of days ago, my initial reaction was "uh oh, there's gonna be some people that will have some problems with this."

I think I can answer for my kids (ages 11 and 9) that they are blissfully unaware of anything that happens in any professional athlete's personal lives, other than maybe this last year's juicing scandals. In fact, I'm watching Kobe Bryant at the Olympics last week (I'm not particularly a fan of pro basketball) and while watching everyone fawn all over him, I'm thinking to myself: doesn't anyone remember what happened in Colorado a few years ago?

I think that sounds like a good plan...fill out the application, get him started on training, and then give him some responsibility.

I can see two possible difficulties:

1. he doesn't want the responsibility, or can't handle it, and stops showing up

2. he resists training, etc. However it seems you'd be working from a stronger position if all adults in your troop have been trained, have responsibilties, etc.

Then again, it may all be eye-opening for him too. This isn't just a bunch of parents and scouts that show up and stuff happens, right? It takes planning, resources, understanding the program, and all sorts of stuff.

I don't really have a problem with the revision...granted, switching to a color printing (and refreshed cover graphics) does change the image that the books had been printed sometime this century versus sometime last century .

I would guess that troops that have a library of MB pamphlets aren't going to rush out to update their libraries (especially when requirements are identical). But over time I'm sure they will be refreshed book-by-book.

The $4.50 cost (versus the old price of $3.49, right?) isn't so hot, but I understand that national is trying to work whatever revenue sources they have, and if revised printed materials are one way, then there's not much we can do about it. Besides complain .

In fact, I didn't start this thread to complain. I just started it to say that I saw some new ones and compared a few of them to old ones, and the content is identical in those cases. There is no need to rush out and get non-revised (in '08) pamphlets, unless you're swayed by the idea that these new ones were printed this century.

"(Please forgive the length.)"

Actually, thanks for the detailed response. I'd thought of many of these issues, but not all.

At this point, I'm not sure the actual details matter, but I'll add them in case you'd like to know.

NCS-trained? I have no clue. I don't know him all that well, and didn't think to ask. But I understand why you're asking.

It's a Webelos and Cub-only camp, with roughly a six-week season. The OA uses it for ordeals on the shoulder weeks, but other than that, I don't think there is much scout use during the season.

Staff? I don't know for sure. I know there are paid teens (some noon-scouts) working some program areas. There's a camp ranger, who I think lives and works there full-time. I'm pretty sure the BB and archery ranges and waterfront (no pool, rather a waterfront on a pond) are staffed by people with the proper credentials. Small dining hall staff. I would guess pretty much everyone is paid, and few if any are volunteers.

Webelos overnight, one session. Cub overnight, one session (the balance of the Webelos week). I believe the rest of the sessions are all weekday Cub day camping, with special programs on weekends, such as "family camping weekend" and "parent-cub overnight". This year, in fact, we went to the first family camping weekend, which preceded the staff training week. So it was opening the camp for the season, more or less. Program areas on the family camping weekend were staffed by teens that weren't really trained yet.

Council-owned facility that was probably paid off more than 50 years ago (it's pretty old, and most of the facilities show the age). Property tax (if there is any -- I don't know) is steep in NH, and might possibly be a major expense.

I've heard, but haven't verified that they shoot to get roughly 60 to 90 Cubs and Webelos in for the resident camps. I haven't heard anything about how well-attended the day camps are.

"(Examples of cost changes for Cubs/Webelos... Add more pool lifeguards to cover an increased volume of kids during chaotic open swims, give each pack or den a staff guide/songleader/program specialist, beef up staff at the trading post and buy all-new handicrafts materials. But then subtract shotgun, COPE, rifle, action archery, first-year camper programs and BSA lifeguard training, and reduce the number of waterfront programs, as Webelos generally don't go kayaking or sailing but sometimes paddle in a canoe or ride on the pontoon boat.)"

I haven't seen the waterfront in operation, so I'm not sure how well-staffed it is, but it would certainly meet national standards for waterfront safety, right? That would seem to be a safe assumption.

I'm also not sure about program specialists, but they have BB and archery ranges. No shotgun or action archery or COPE, but there is an "obstacle course" for kids they can run on their own (no staff). No trading post, per se. There might be patches for sale in the office, or something like that. Naturalist program, and crafts.

"IMO, the DE should have engaged you more in discussion and provided detailed budget information about how and why the costs were established. He's the director, he'd better have been to National Camping School - so shrugging it off on a volunteer is a cop-out."

Understood -- he's a nice guy, and I don't want to tarnish him. Sometimes I think he is so overloaded that his answers are more expedient than anything else.

Thanks again for your detailed response. I do realize that all of this stuff goes into running a camp.

Apache Bob - it's more than just the front and back covers. It is an all-color printing. All the photographs inside are printed in color too (text printing remains all-black ). They're available now -- at least in my local scout shop. I would assume others have them as well.

And thanks, BW...the ones I spot-checked didn't include any revised in 2008. In fact, one I checked was "Computers" which I was hoping had been updated (but isn't).

Over in a new uniform thread, there was just a mention of the new MB books...I haven't seen any other recent discussion on the topic (but then again, I can't keep up with everything on this forum)...

Anyway, I saw a pile of new MB books at the local scout shop, and they had stacks of old ones too (blowing them out at $2.50 each, as I recall). I spot-checked a half dozen books, comparing new and old side by side. The content appears to be exactly the same, it's just that the new ones, inside and out, have color printing. For example, the photographs from the old MB book are still used in the new books, but in color. The new ones do look good, and look very appealing. But if all you're interested in is the content, the old ones are perfectly fine.

"Gklose, why is that interesting? Did you think that the DE makes the budget for activities?"

BW: the DE was camp director this summer for this camp (the council does have a few other cub day camps, but this was the only camp running a resident camp, along with their daycamp weeks). It just seems odd to me that despite his assignment, and despite his research into prices at similar camps around the country (and I have no idea how many he actually surveyed), that the final decision came down to a single adult volunteer that wasn't actually running the camp. One guy who I think is kind of out of touch with what parents face all the time.

I'll just give my own example -- my kids did spend a lot of time at home, but between a town-run sports-oriented 6-week daycamp ($180x2, which I think is a bargain), summer Little League, swimming lessons at the local YMCA, and a week at Scout camp for one kid, there wasn't a whole lot left over. Certainly not enough for $250 for a Webelos resident camp (and it's not like there are 4 full days filled, with 1st and last days being truncated).

Yes, it comes down to priorities, but this one just seems way out of whack to me. Which is one reason why we didn't go (my original note lists the other two reasons, which would be worthy, but separate, topics to discuss).

To be fair, if this council needs to charge $250 for a 3-night resident camp, where regular scout camp with a dramatically improved program runs $265 for 6 nights, then the council needs to do a better job of justifying the costs.

But in fact, the DE/camp director was agreeing with me. He didn't agree with the cost either, and his research showed that we were both on the same page.

Guy

Had an interesting discussion with my DE last night at a function. He also was running the Cub camping program this summer, including Webelos resident camp.

I had decided not to take my Webelos to resident camp because of three primary reasons: ill-defined program, ill-defined leadership and cost. The DE only really heard the cost question. For 4-days, 3-nights at this camp, the cost was $250.

A week at the council's summer camp, for scouts, was $265.

I pointed out the disconnect to the DE. He told me that after I had originally questioned the cost, he did a survey. He found costs ranging from (as I recall) about $80 to $185, but he noted that the high end is up here in the northeast. I repeated that I wouldn't be interested, just from the comparison to regular scout camp. It is interesting, but he laid the blame on an adult volunteer, saying that he wouldn't budge on the cost factor.

Guy

(this was embedded within Chippewa's note)

Just as a side note, I really dislike the practice of a leader putting up a Scout Sign and bellowing "Sign's up!". To me, I think that encourages ignoring the sign until someone is bellowing (kind of like a Pavlov's dog thing).

My old SM used to put up his sign and wait. When he was Program Director at the local camp, he did the same thing. He'd just wait, in a dining hall filled with 200 scouts. After awhile, everyone would catch on (but there might be another adult bellowing "Sign's up!" -- aaargh!). The most I ever heard him say, with his sign up was a whisper of "I can wait all day if I need to".

So, does that trick work any more? Can a leader just wait? Use "the stare" and melt some icicles while you're at it?

I was at a district function last night -- our DE was out of uniform, but I asked him if he had bought a new one. He said that they were not required to do so, but since they were given a deal at their recent conference, he did buy one. He did, however, add that he thought they would be required to get them by the time of the Centennial Jamboree.

In contrast, a clerk at the local scout shop told me they were required to buy new uniforms.

It's not like I grew up in a family where we were really socially-conscious (and I've met a handful in the last few years that are), but both my mom and dad did have public service projects, and my siblings and I would also participate. Service projects were also a regular part of my scouting, and not just helping with Eagle projects.

Anyway, as a followup to my original story: my Tenderfoot finished his project yesterday. All told, he had gathered approximately $200 worth of school supplies from about 20 families, give or take. His mom drove him over to the local shelter, where the supplies seem to be much appreciated (two smaller boxes, and then their eyes lit up when he came back in carrying the two larger boxes). After getting home, he started in on thank you notes -- he decided to print and photocopy a general thank you note describing the outcome, and added handwritten notes to them before he dropped them off.

As I said before, I'm very proud of him...I also like the idea that he is seeing that service projects don't have to be difficult...with a good idea and a little advance planning, a fairly easy to accomplish project can make a big difference.

DPW -- sounds fairly similar to the troop and pack sponsored by our CO. I'm coming in from the outside, and I'm trying to address membership concerns, and one of my major areas to address is reestablishing the connection between the troop and the pack and also with the CO.

Every Sunday, there is a pretty extensive bulletin handed out that has several paragraphs devoted to the youth ministries at the church. But no mention of scouting -- there is a quarterly publication mailed to homes, but no mention of scouting. I'm sure there are plenty of service projects hiding around the church facilities and grounds - but the CO doesn't ask and neither does the troop. The CO has an associated K-8 school across the street. The pack does a little recruiting there, but the troop doesn't. The CO and the school have websites, the troop has a website, and the pack has a new parent volunteer willing to develop a website. Any links between the sites? Not yet.

I think it is time to establish the bond with our CO and with the pack. I'm all ears when it comes to advice on what we could be doing to improve the connection.

Thanks, Ed...isn't that 11-yr-old newbie scout attitude infectious?

Snoring Bear -- the event I was talking about is a townwide cleanup day organized by the town's recycling/solid waste committee. They work on getting tons of donations, such as food, garbage bags, tools, gloves, reflective vests and giant dumpsters, while the rest of us volunteers just show up and provide labor. Last year, it was held on a Saturday closest to Earth Day. But that also coincided with spring break (families were traveling). This year, the date was moved to the first weekend in May. It would be quite a bother to try and get them to move it, once they've set their date.

But you're right -- there are always going to be family conflicts, especially with organized sports on Saturday mornings.

Guy(This message has been edited by GKlose)

This is an aside, but...

Before I read about the "Methods of Scouting" I always thought of scouting as a youth group focusing on building leadership skills, fostering the development of outdoor skills, environmental consciousness and community service. In other words, a primary part being community service. I felt that's how things were treated when I was a scout.

Fast forward many years, and my family and I sign up for a townwide cleanup day. I notice that maybe a hundred people out of our town of 30k are participating. I figure with some advanced planning I could get at least a hundred cubs and scouts and parents out. So I started about six months in advance. I get the names of all BSA unit leaders in town (4 troops, 3 packs) and a name for a Girl Scout admin (she wouldn't share unit leader email addresses with me because of "the privacy issue").

I contacted everyone, telling them of our experience the prior year, and how easy it was to participate. Show up, get supplies, drive to a place and pick up trash. Talked it over with every unit leader I met while I was taking my Webelos son around to visit scout troops. Every one of them agreed it sounded like a good service project. Sent reminders. Sent more persistent reminders to adults in my sons' pack, offering to lead a group.

The net result out of all that? Mostly crickets chirping. Gained a net of four adults, and maybe five children (no teens, no tweens). No response whatsoever from every troop or pack except in our own pack. Had a small handful of no-shows from my own pack (this is a pack with about 50 families, I'd guess). No response from Webelos son's new troop (this was all happening as he was transitioning). Zero response from any Girl Scout unit. I didn't even find out if the admin I traded email with even contacted local units.

I found the process to be very discouraging. The cynical side of me thinks that most troops feel that participating in their troop's Eagle candidate projects and Scouting for Food is enough community service time for the year, and that most packs don't do anything about community service because, hey, where do you see anything about that in Tiger/Wolf/Bear/Webelos rank requirements?

So, what am I gonna do? I'm going to try again next year

I'm funny like that.

(actually, I'd appreciate any suggestions...maybe it was my mishandling that went awry)

BTW, he's also already decided what he wants to do for an Eagle project. Despite the risk of squashing his ideas, I've cautioned that he has a lot to do before he gets to that stage. I also didn't want to burst his bubble by saying that his idea probably wouldn't fly for an Eagle project (he wants to clean up the local scout camp, which is in really poor condition).

Thanks, guys...

In fact, I kept cautioning his mom (they're all home for the summer, while I'm stuck at work) that this isn't a mini-Eagle project, that he only needed to spend an hour working on some project. But this is the kind of thing he does -- he gets his mind set on what to do (sometimes to his detriment), and then does it.

The only part that seems like an overload is the thank you notes. On the other hand, that's really the proper thing to do. So while he'll have way more than an hour invested by the end, I think it will be done well, with only a little help from mom (she called the shelter, she edited his email and flyer, and she'll drive him over for dropoff -- she also drove him over to Staples for they're free, $0.05 and $0.25 specials, to load up).

The part I've liked best is that he didn't want to wait for a troop service project, that he had some time now, and he wanted to go ahead and do something. I also like that he didn't just put in minimal effort to get the hour done.

It's likely he'll be 1st class by a year from now, so maybe he can repeat it (perhaps engaging the rest of the troop) for next fall

Guy(This message has been edited by GKlose)

My kids have been in a similar pack (oldest transitioned out this last spring, youngest is a W1 this year).

The CC/CM has been perpetually overloaded, hasn't had training (until recently -- so I give him tons of credit for finally doing this). Den leaders are sort of ad hoc, making up some of it as they go along (crank kids through, get them their rank badges for an end of year "Blue and Gold" and then suspend pack activity until the next fall).

The program could be so much better if they followed the program (!). The CC/CM would be much less loaded if he'd commit to one position and then find someone else to fill the other, and suggest that everyone do Fast Start and YPT online (roughly 20 minutes each). But the CC/CM seems to be uncomfortable with change. I think he'd rather it just stay the same way it has been all along.

I'm very proud of my young Tenderfoot, so I'd like to share this story...

He was getting pretty antsy to work on requirements for 2nd class, and rather than wait for a troop-wide service project in which to put some service time, he decided to show some initiative.

So he decided that since it is "back to school time" why not collect school supplies and donate them to someone? With a little help from his mom, he sent out an email note to our neighborhood email list and to a pile of other friends, and putting flyers in neighborhood mailboxes, asking that when they do their back to school shopping, please consider buying a little extra and donating them. He offered to pick up whatever they bought, or else he'd leave a box on our front porch. He also sent out a reminder, and then a blanket note as a sort of thank you and mention that he was ending his collection. Also, with his mom's help, they identified a local shelter that has an after-school program, and they are going to be more than happy to accept the donated school supplies.

The response was really quite overwhelming -- I'd guess at least 20 families (some anonymous) donated a ton of stuff. He's been tracking the numbers, but pretty much everything has been donated: pencils, pens, markers, crayons, folders, binders, paper, spiral notebooks, glue sticks, and on and on. I think he's got three large boxes filled at the moment, and he still has a couple of people who were on vacation that still want to donate.

He's kind of dreading the last part -- after talking with us, he realizes that sending out thank-you notes would be a nice thing to do, and he's not really all that excited about writing out more than 15 notes. But he is very thankful that so many people would donate so much stuff. He's going to drop off those boxes a little later this week.

I think this has turned into a really great service project -- when he finally tells his patrol leader and his scoutmaster how it went (the SM pre-approved the project), I'm sure they'll be very surprised too.