fred8033

I requested my post be deleted. I should not have done that. I reacted wrongly to my discovery.

It wasn't really "outing" as there was nothing to out. His information was directly linked thru fireside theater and his name directly used on ScoutingForAll.org and Atheist Nexus. It was more of a personal enlightenment that I shared.

I reacted the same way I reacted when I learned a relatively new friend only invited me over to bring me into his Amway network. I was thinking we were all scouters here discussing our scouting experiences.

It was wrong of me. I should not have posted direct names or links. I hope the site admin can delete them.

Merlyn - I should apologize. About an hour ago, I emailed the site admin requesting my posts to be deleted. I should not have called you out by name. It's wrong. My apologies. I hope the admin has a chance to delete my two posts.

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"I don't see how you conclude I'm a "main poster" on atheist nexus, I've posted about 7 things back in 2009. "

Your right. I didn't realize that when I googled to the site. I thought it was your site. I didn't realize it was more like a MySpace or Facebook for atheists.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Fred's previous post has been deleted (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Great question! I'm looking too.

I'm not saying everything modern is not automatically better. Generally I agree people are people. On the committee side, I'll agree depth/skill/support is a bit less as I believe people are a more mobile, busier and less connected with their immediate community.

I'm just saying today's leaders have been exposed to more educational opportunities and ideas. People are also a bit less naive on critical topics. An obvious one is youth protection. The issue isn't new. But leaders today understand youth protection, what to look for and how to run a safer program. I believe leaders today might be a bit more sensitive of other issues and a little less likely to just take an attitude of "get over it".

I think the better question is which leadership style is more effective. Maybe a less reflective, less sensitive, wack on the head, Darwinian "get over it" leader produces a better scouts. I'm not sure. But I do believe today's leaders are as good as those in the past and better in some areas.

Does the thread question match the point of interest?

For example, I believe today's school teachers are the best that's ever existed, but I also yearn, at times, for the old days when teachers would wack a mouthy student. I fully believe that, at the appropriate time, a bit of quick immediate pain can be more effective, less traumatic and less damaging than the bureaucratic BS and extended bad behavior tolerated in today's society. BUT, I also would not want to go back.

"Are today's scout leaders as good as the ones in the past?" I absolutely believe they are. I believe the commitment and concern for the scouts has not changed. The big difference is that the current leaders are better trained and more safety conscious. The training might not be just scout training, but also through school, college or other professional growth. I just believe we have a great set of scout leaders today.

BUT that might not be the right question to ask.

I wouldn't mention the phone calls. That would put a person on the defensive and won't help. I'm sure he knows the issues and probably looking for help too.

Myth... Interesting debate. LOL.... The theory that the 25th was borrowed from pagan rituals is also a myth. I'm not a Bible scholar, but from what I've read the first mention of Dec 25th / Jan 6th was around 250 to 300 AD. The 1st written association between the dates was not until a commentator commented on it in 1200 AD. By 1200 AD, Christians had started adopting some pagan practices in their celebrations (Christmas trees???, other).

Then there's the whole shift of the calendars (Gregorian, Julian, ...). (i.e. the 12 days of Christmas). Eventually I get lost. But it is a simplistic myth that Dec 25th is just an adoption of a pagan holiday. Bible scholars I've read recognize the pagan theory as popular myth. Though Christians did not live in isolation, none of the extensive written debate from that era mentions that reasoning. Also, most Christmas pagan traditions didn't get adopted until almost a thousand years later. Did it influenced? I don't know. Was it the only or main reason? No.

The Bible does have some hints on the date (Luke 1), but it's not precise. Ultimately, the dates are chosen by man and chosen to honor God's gifts. That's really all that's important.

On a personal note.... Whether your a Christian, traditionalist or a structuralist, I'll leave that to you. But don't look down on others beliefs. That happened in an evangelical church that my wife happily attended. The only good that happened is that it made me reflect, research and pray and return to my Catholic heritage. Once I understood the teachings, I had to confess my Catholic faith.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Just do it as a friend who's working toward the same goal he. But have the conversation and soon and find a solution. It sounds like his responsibilities have significantly increased since the previous CC left.

It's important to remember that though pack leadership roles appear to have specific responsibilities, it's not official. It's more like here's a bunch of people and what can we do to get the job done.

By the way "Back in 1966...". Ummm... I meant "Back in 1996". I'm old, but not that old.

What people forget is that the "payroll taxes" were essentially designed as "insurance" premiums. Social security was "Old-Age, Survivors and Disability Insurance". Payroll taxes are "FICA" which is "Federal Insurance...".

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So what is it?

INSURANCE ... If you believe it's insurance, then ... If the insurance is underfunded, you raise the premium pretty much on everyone.

GENERAL BENEFIT ... Then everyone should get the same monthly S.S. payment whether you paid payroll taxes on $110k of income or $25k of income. But then you have other major major economic issues to address.

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Now if you raise the taxable cap, do you also raise the limit they use to calculate benefits. Right now, when figuring SS payments, the max income in the calculation is $110k. If you raise the taxable amount, do you raise the max the benefit is calculated at?

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The other thing is these taxes have been going up for years. I'm not sure how many people realize that. Back in 1966, I did my own company taxes. I remember parts of FICA being capped at $67K. Each year it slowly increased until I believe there is no limit now since 1994. That's a huge revenue increase! Also, there's another pending increase about to happen. Currently, it is 2.9%, individual plus company match. Starting in 2013, it is 2.9% up to $200K (single) or $250k (married). Over that, it's 3.8%.

The key is the effective payroll taxes have been going up for decades.

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I just get tired of the class warfare arguements. It's just a bunch of hate mongering where the 99% blaming their bad times on the a smaller group.

Personally, I'd rather see medicare go away and just create a national health coverage program for all US citizens.

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I should also admit I hate the idea of passing a bill that only extends things two months. That is an incredibly expensive way of doing things. If I remember my readings, "how long" is one of the points of difference.

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I don't know the right answer, but I am tired of the blame game.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

Jay - Can you "scan" that treatise in for us?

The power point presentation actually reminds me a lot of my learning as I learned about advancement, but I agree that it is just too long. It is better suited as the outline for a 30 page paper.

Here's a wild suggestion. How about cutting it down to about 10 to 12 slide. One slide for each sub-section of section 8 (BORs) in the Guide To Advancement. For the handout, give them a printed copy of section 8 of the GTA. Don't bother covering the ugly stuff (over 18, disputed BOR, appeals, ...) http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

Don't bother trying to create yet another summary. Get them to start reading what BSA publishes. That's ultimately what most of us hope starts happening (i.e. people start following BSA publications and not just repeating troop traditions). Heck, if you get them to read GTA section 8, maybe they will wonder what the other sections cover and read them too.

In any event, nice job on the learning and the effort. That was not easy and reflects a lot of thinking about what's supposed to happen.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

dlearyous wrote: "Why does it state that a Scout shall not be responsible for requesting that a board take place?"

I think this comes from both the Boy Scout Handbook and also Guide To Advancement section 8.0.0.2. "When he believes he has completed all the requirements, including a Scoutmaster conference, it is up to the unit leader and committee to assure a board of review is held.

There might be some leeway for interpretation, but the next GTA sentence is: "Scoutmasters, for example, do not have authority to expect a boy to request one, or to defer him, or to ask him to perform beyond the requirements in order to be granted one."

Basementdweller - We just charge everyone the same and believe it all washes out to be fair in the end. For us, we decided that keeping it simple was more fair. But that's our pack and not a general rule.

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The trouble with dues is that there's never really a balance. It's not a scout account. It goes into a general fund to be used to cover pack expenses. If other packs share the dues of people who transfer out of their pack, it's only through their good graces. There is no obligation.

I often get confused as to which comes first. OA as an honor society or OA as a brotherhood of cheerful service. It's clear OA is more about ceremonials then activities. But is that bad?

- How about an OA only event at summer camp? Say the normal bed time is 10pm. At that time, OA members silently leave camp and head to a special issolated camp fire program only for them. Of course with treats, fun and other perks to make it special.

"silent member" ... Great! That's an excellent way to communicate a core aspect of adult leadership.

Sasha - Good luck. These situations are never fun.

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Side discussion...

twocubdad wrote: "When I was pack CC we had a Webelos II den of about four boys which refuesd to pay pack dues. The DL felt since they had already paid the BSA dues they didn't need to pay for the six or seven months until crossover (she was a bit wacko, never really understood what her issue was.) "

We've had those too. We usually resolved it by discussing pack expenses. The Webelos years are very expensive to the pack.

My 1st pack only charged 50% for the 2nd Webelos year because it was half a year and they were not rechartered to the pack. BUT, then I started seeing the expense reports. The Webelos years are expensive. Our pack has very few expenses for advancements for Tiger, Wolf and Bear ranks ... except belt loops. Webelos is expensive with $1.69 per pin. Plus special shoulder colors. Rank badge. Arrow of Light badge. Scout book. Graduation arrows (if pack purchases them). And belt loops too.

I get a kick out of your solution. If a whole den refuses to pay dues, then let them purchase and coordinate their own advancements. I'd work like heck to avoid that situation, but I do like it.

Are your dues relatively small? Less then $150. Is your pack at all financially healthy?

If so, make the problem go away. It's fighting a losing battle, distracting and wasting time over what is probably a minor amount of money. The key is that trying to fairly resolve the situation just promotes hard feelings and prolongs a really bad situation.

Wave their dues for the year and swallow the cost. Then, you can focus on the fun of scouting. At least it sounds like the council is willing to register them not at your cost. That's great. My answer depends on the health of your pack finances. If at all healthy, make the issue go away and not talk about it.

The most important thing is to get this family having a positive scouting experience. By waving the dues, you'll win their gratitude. You can ask the other pack for a refund, but their position is probably that the family choose to leave. Not their issue. Dues are not like a deposit into a scout account.

If you had thirty families in this situation, my answer would have been different.

At least it sounds like the district is familiar with the issue. Hopefully, they can pay some attention to the other pack and maybe provide some training, guidance, advice or other.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

basementweller - Nice post. I think it works the same way at the district level.

"one person cannot or will not change the Good old boys club or status quo. "

That's just not my experience. Scouters are volunteers and welcome new volunteers to keep the program going.

My experience is district/council has plenty of holes to fill and are always looking for people to help, new energy, new enthusiasm and fresh ideas. A few committees like advancement tend to want to know the people pretty well first before welcoming volunteers. But even there, they are always looking for good volunteers to help.

The accused "Good old boys clubs" or "political problems" tend to be more human interaction issues. And usually occur when someone's already doing a job and the group is generally happy. Then, someone steps in saying it should be done differently. It offends people and can start labeling past hard work and successes as failures.

The challenge is how to make change. ... and to know when to step back and recognize the values of how it's being done now.

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For myself, three years ago there were two issues at district that kept bugging me. I volunteered for one and have been doing it for three years now. The other I got to know the people involved and worked for a change. And it eventually happened. When I think of significant changes at district level in the last three years, I'm proud to say that I've helped drive a good number of them. I don't care who gets the knot or the formal recognition. I just enjoy being part of the group (and a fair bit of joking around when we socialize).

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As for council supporting units, that's another discussion. Most ways councils do support units but there are a few very visible thorns.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I see well over a hundred new members at the ordeal weekend. They do four ceremonies split between two fire rings. Our troop gets two to five scouts elected and through the ordeal each year. Our troop passes on the information from OA and OA members are also contacted directly by their chapter. I'm just not sure how much more is expected.

I should mention our council does have a OA led youth training camp out each spring. It's like a university of scouting for youth, but on a camp out. Great event and great for OA activities.

I like the idea of the OA running the camporee. Interesting idea. Not sure of challenges with time of year overlapping ordeal weekend. Interesting though.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I'm not arguing against OA at all. I like OA. I think it's a good idea. I'm just always sad that ... from what I see ... it's promise does not match the reality. But I am mostly on the outside and can only speak to the experience of scouts from our unit. The only significant involvement I see is the scout going through the ordeal. Then, mostly nothing, even for the OA reps.

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Side note ... we've had many scouts do high adventures (troop and council contingents) and I can't think of a single one in the last ten years that took advantage of OA service opportunities for a high adventure trip. It might be a coordination issue though because of travel plans and adults and such. It's probably a major coordination issue to figure out who can provide half their time in service, adjust treks appropriately and make sure there are sufficient adult leaders. Perhaps, I'll suggest this for the ntier as they are relatively close by. It would reduce cost drastically. Heck, I'd be up for that. Especially, if it saves us $400 or more per person.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

.... ummmm .... but .... wait .... dang .... nothing.

.... Nope. ... Still nothing

(This message has been edited by fred8033)

I did consider the definition of "diatribe". I'm absolutely fine with all three of the contexts below. You should look up the definition and consider the other persons perspective before suggesting there is an issue with a term.

Diatribe

1 archaic : a prolonged discourse

2 : a bitter and abusive speech or piece of writing

3 : ironic or satirical criticism

Scoutmasters aren't a god. Rarely do they need to pass judgement and very rarely do they ever need to say no to something that's not a safety issue. The scout's on his 2nd pass looking to solve an obstacle. The most important thing a scoutmaster can do is to help put control of advancement back in the hands of the scout. If it was five months left, then the scoutmaster would not be saying no. He'd be pointing out a fact. If there was no way to honestly solve the requirements, then the scoutmaster would not be saying no. But it can be done and very easily done and then it's up to the scout to fulfill the requirements.

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qwazse: "The impending military career, noble as it is, can sometimes be a "wake-up" call to go after Eagle. The sudden realization that a boy might get a bump in pay-grade is enough to motivate some boys who three months earlier were dismissive of the badge."

LOL. We have a scout in that exact situation in our troop right now. I have no issue with it. If it's what the scout values, I'll support him. It's still up to him to follow through on his requirements. It's his vision and my job as his leader to support him and not to look for reasons to say no.

It's no different than if at summer camp you have a few scouts who like to climb or ride horses. When reserving troop times, I'd watch/remind the SPL of those scouts so that he can work it into his priorities and maybe schedule a troop climb or a troop horseback ride.

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