fred johnson

6 hours ago, shortridge said:

Do your Scouts all own and bring their own tents?

I've been in multiple troops that do it differently.  Scouts bringing their own tent makes life easier for the adults.  BUT, there are lots of benefits to the troop owning the tents.  It gives the QM something meaningful to do.  It gives the troop things to do at meetings (setup, clean, put away, etc).  It's also a great leveling aspect as everyone has the same stuff.  It doesn't become a competition for who has the best tent.  Also, you can avoid scouts bringing party tents.  I swear half the trouble at night is when you have five or six scouts sharing one tent.  There is something about two in a tent that causes them to fall asleep faster.  Most importantly, everyone having matching tents makes for a sharp looking camp site.  

Our troop had matching tents for ten plus years.  We replace one every other year or so.  Now, I'd say we are at about one new tent a year and we have 15+ in our trailer.  

For a new troop, I'd avoid big cost items.  Heck, I'd think it might be cool to have a patrol go to a second hand shop (goodwill, savers, ...) and have them pick out what they need.  Silverware.  Plates.  Cups.  Skillets.  Etc.  It would be a cool way to stock a patrol.  Plus, when the patrol crashes, donate that patrol's stuff and let the new patrol go shopping again.  I bet you could get most of the cook stuff for under $20 from a second hand shop.  Except lanterns and stove.  

On 10/13/2018 at 7:49 PM, swilliams said:

My boys are still on the young side, 12 and 10, so I've not brought this up.  It's too tempting to stick my head in the sand, rather than try to wade into the murk that is the current #metoo.  It's sad to think that it's no longer enough to talk to them about treating girls with respect, but to have to add in precautions about making sure they can't be accused of inappropriate behavior.

As for my daughters, one was groped in the hallway of middle school - early 2000's, plenty of witnesses.  She immediately went to the school director, told him what had happened and pointed out the boy, who ended up being suspended for three days.  When he came back to school, he was determined to exact revenge.  Being in NYC, the school building didn't have room for the 7th and 8th grade kids to eat lunch in the cafeteria, so they were allowed out for lunch.  He followed her and a group of friends to the local deli, pushed their food off the table, then shoved my daughter into the street as she was walking back to school.  Luckily the oncoming car was able to brake in time.  While you never want a girl to feel she can't speak up, it never occurred to her that she would end up in a far more difficult situation because of it, and she expressed frustration and some regret for having come forward.

 What an awful, muddled mess.  Can we just separate them all until they're in their 20's?

I pray that incidents like your daughter experienced NEVER cause people to avoid reporting.  Did your daughter report this follow-on incident?  Did her friends?  I'd hope he was expelled, was charged and faced juvenile court punishments.   

Reporting is critical.  I fully believe future victims are created by not reporting.  The most visible example of this is Harvey Weinstein's 87 victims over 30+ years.  If early victims would have spoke up, perhaps 50 or 60  or 70 fewer victims would have been created.  

7 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Note that most of the YPT intent is directed at and intended for Adults to setup barriers for abuse to youth.  Some is there youth to youth, but it is YOUTH Protection

The original post was about chat groups used by youth to youth.  As has been noted, nothing really different than boys talking to boys, just in a new format.  We as leaders cannot be expected to monitor and observe all conversations youth to youth whether they be in person, in notes, on text, PM's, phone calls, conference calls, etc.  Yes it is about the PLC and if the conversation involved bullying or other topics that needed to be addressed, then same as if the conversation was in person, in notes, on text, PM's, phone calls, conference calls, the leaders could address the issue.

If the unit sets up a communication medium (say instagram) then yes that should be moderated, all comments public, etc

17 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Please don't shoot the messenger, but I think this is the section that requires adults to monitor it.  From: https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a

To help ensure that all communication on social media channels remains positive and safe, these channels must be public, and all communication on or through them must be public. This enables administrators to monitor all communication and help ensure there is no inappropriate communication between adult leaders and Scouts or between Scouts themselves. Therefore, no private channels (e.g., private Facebook groups or invite-only YouTube channels) are acceptable in helping to administer the Scouting program. Private channels and private communication put both the youth and you at risk. If you feel the information you seek to share via social media channels should not be shared in public, you should not share that information via social media.

 

What is social media?  This is not clear cut.  It's a general rule to apply based on intent.  

Our scouts have a large group text message "chat".  We don't monitor it.  Heck if we tried, another communication channel would creep in and relatively soon grow to encompass all the scouts again.  IMHO, damage would be done by our trying to insert ourselves too much.  We'd lose the scout's trust and they would start fearing and hiding things from us.

Plus for our troop, I'm not exactly sure what technology they use, but I think it's basically very similar to texting.  Maybe a bit more persistent, but texting is relatively persistent too.  But, I just don't consider it "social media" any more than I consider a phone call or an email as social media.  

I consider "Social media" as facebook, instagram, youtube, etc.   Tools that help form a community.  I don't consider email or texting or basic message relay as "social media".  

Funny comment ... I've listened in on our scouts at times.  Several use snapchat to talk with their girl friends.  It's not because of trying to hide things.  It's because they don't want their girlfriends to have long term records of what they said.  They don't want their past communication over analyzed, relayed or being used against them in the future.  So they use snapchat to avoid a long term trail.  I find that funny that the boys were already thinking about that.   

I flip back and forth whether snapchat is a social media channel.  

46 minutes ago, GSleaderSG said:

... "My husband is not quite ready to take on any sort of leadership role (he was never a scout) but he's willing to attend all meetings, outings and camping trips with our son. " ...

Your statement sounds about right.  Let your husband be there for your son.  Your husband can read books, relax, go for walks, etc.  But at the same time he can be there for your son to support and provide a safety net.  Often kids just want sympathy and empathize and to know they are important.  Your husband being there would probably help.  

Also, your husband can help the troop without taking on an official role.  There are always dozens of ways to help at any camp.  Just walking over to help with adult dishes.  Or cook an adult meal.  Or help the SM / ASM setup / tear down their own stuff.  

A friendly hand is always welcome.  

A few general points. 

• "Special needs" are not all one and the same.  ADD, ADHD can be very different than obstinate defiant behavior disorders.  I'm not sure the scout in this situation, but some challenges need more than others.  
• It's more about finding that magical mix where your son fits in right.  It's less about one troop being more accommodating than another.  Over the years, I can count a dozen plus scouts that had ADHD and some with relatively severe developmental issues.  Most worked out fine.  One we had to effectively ask to try another troop as we could not find that magical mix.  Another left before of their own accord.  We think of ourselves as accommodating, but it's hard to get that right mix.

• Independence ... I think a key part that makes scouting work is the boys need to some degree be able to function on their own.  Walk down the trail.  Go to bed.  Use a stove.  Follow general instructions.  Adults can't be at every location at every moment.  The exact right leader can be at the right spot every time.  

• Teasing and bullying ... Teasing and bullying can be every bit as much of a character flaw that needs help as ADD, ADHD, etc.  We can help teach and we can correct incidents, but it's not a light switch that we can flip and make it go away.  Even worse, kids often tease and bully kids they see as vulnerable to it.  Once it's started, it's hard to stop.  And, after an incident, even small actions can be seen as teasing and bullying.  

IMHO, having a parent there ... in the shadows ... may be the best fallback.  The parent shouldn't inject themselves in every aspect of the troop, but the parent can be there in case their son reaches that edge.  You can't expect leaders to be there at every moment.  You can't expect the right youth leader to be there at every moment.  If your son needs a bit more help or a safety margin, you might need to help a bit more. 

Yes.  I've had some experience here.  There are no requirement differences.  The advancement program is the same.

LDS troop can do things differently, but it's not a formal published difference.  For example, we've had scouts from LDS troops come for an EBOR who are absolutely great kids, great scouts, done cool things, but they might not have a shirt or might not have done patrols or ...  The program can vary greatly.  But this is really true for non-LDS units too.  The simple fact is troops often implement the program very differently.  

I'd focus on helping the scout have a positive, smooth, welcoming transition from the other troop.  No matter how good each troop is, there is often an adjustment.

Only worry about cleaning up advancement requirements or getting them current.

This happens to scouts, adults and professionals.  Anyone worth their mustard will help solve this issue.  Ask your troop.

Issues like this happen all through life.  The skill is learning to handle them and realizing its just a small bump.   

Next time put the receipt in your wallet or take a picture of it with your phone. 

I've wondered how this affects young men.  I know many young men right now that are just not interested in dating.  It's very strange and alien to me.  I always thought it was internet and online gaming.  I suspect this is a strong contributor.  

19 hours ago, Merlyn_LeRoy said:

Typical BSA member insulting an atheist yet again.  It's possible I don't know what YOU are really saying, but I'd put that down to your incoherence.

I'm not insulting at all.  I'm stating.

I'm saying you are ignorant of everything I've done for 15 years for all scouts; my faith, other faiths or no faith.  I've never used scouting as an evangelical tool and I've never stood in the way or blocked or insulted anyone of other faiths or those of no faith.  If anything, I've helped numerous scouts that are not practicing or that do not have a faith.  My volunteering has been about enabling them to camp and develop friendships and have adventures.  

You are ignorant of who I am and what I've done.  

You are insulting without cause.  

My question.  What have you done to support the scouts, both those that are atheist and those that have a faith.  Where have you given back your time?  

15 hours ago, Merlyn_LeRoy said:

Typical BSA member insulting an atheist for not being humble when insulted.

You are so so so ignorant and not knowing what you are really saying.  

21 hours ago, Merlyn_LeRoy said:

When people who belong to an organization that denegrates atheists like the BSA, and denegrate the morals of atheists, I'll respond.  If you don't like that, that's your problem.

Well ... I hope you create accounts on Arabic forums, Jewish forums, Hindu forums, fellowship of Christian Athlete sites, Alcoholics Anonymous and badger them too.  

I feel like I'm dealing with Donald Trump.  Someone who needs to pick a fight and bring people down to lift his position.  

2 hours ago, DuctTape said:

For those interested in reading about the formation of ethics from an atheists viewpoint; ie not relying on religious or other teachings. Here is a link to an essay on the American Atheists website. While many may disagree with his viewpoint, it is a good read to understand where an atheist is coming from.  https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/ethics-without-gods/

  

I've read articles like that before.  It's an academic exercise to create a morality based on love, beauty, fairness and enlightenment.  The challenge is that these are not necessarily universals.  And, people may not have the resources to live at that enlightened level.  Or, they could have so many resources they do not need to live at that level.  Resources are not just money, but also health, youth, their own beauty, physical ability, intellectual ability, environment, family, society, etc.  

It's why I'd strongly argue there is no "morality" outside the laws of the state ... that you will be caught violating ... and that have ramifications.  

40 minutes ago, cocomax said:

... Here are the CoC goals. ...

Fascinating controversy.  I found the original article.  I had no idea of this Linux controversy.  

13 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

... One way it relates to Scouting is that Scouting does NOT require its members to believe that our moral code was dictated by a higher power.  It merely requires a belief in a higher power.  ...

Agreed.  On a personal note, I really fully believe that morality is not self-evident.  Without faith, morality is an academic exercise at best.  At worst, an imposition by the state leaving decisions to personal benefit or avoiding punishment.  Example:  Everyone knows, but no one can me so I'll hand in thousands of pages of email, but claim I reformatted my email server. 

18 hours ago, Merlyn_LeRoy said:

I think the BSA's decades-long disparagement of atheists both by word and deed contributes to the slurs against atheists in this forum.  You know, like when scouts write things like "Merlyn ... You're the Stalin of the web era", as if I'm equivalent to a mass murderer.

Oh, that was you who wrote that.

This is NOT about BSA.  This is about your using this blog for a personal agenda outside BSA and being willing to bring everyone down with you.  

I just don't understand what is going on in your life to cause you to post in this board as you do.  

2 hours ago, Merlyn_LeRoy said:

Go ahead and argue that it's good.

 

So slavery is moral?  You can buy slaves from other countries and leave them as property to your children?

 

But you're getting that from religion.  Humans wrote the bible.

 

I see you didn't understand my comment.  There ARE unicorns in the bible, and false animal husbandry.

Where is there anything at all scouting related in this discussion.  Merlyn LeRoy has long represented anti anything that he feels is bad and often at the cost of other people's beliefs and personal values.  Sadly, it often degrades into ugly name calling and insults.  This discussion chain should end.  It lifts up no one.   

1 hour ago, Merlyn_LeRoy said:

Even granting that, it still makes religions useless for deciding moral questions.  Christianity literally had centuries to call slavery immoral, yet failed to do so.  Aquinas was OK with slavery and plenty of popes endorsed it and some owned slaves themselves.

All of them?  There are over 30 examples.  Whataboutism doesn't wave away how worthless religion is for determining morality, it only shows that you're trying to deflect the issue.

Stop with the Christianity bashing.  You may not value it, but many of us do.  

Stop with the history lessons.  They are incomplete and just bashing others.  It's just the latest populist form of hate speech.  

11 minutes ago, packsaddle said:

Two grandsons new in a cub pack. There are (horrors!) girls. No one seems to notice. They do stuff together. It's almost as if it's not unnatural. 

My experience with cub scouts was that the youngest (1st and 2nd) grades did not initially know it was boy only.  They had to "learn" that. 

The new model is large councils.  The power of size is really hard to argue against.  Plus, add online training.  Add online advancement / scoutbook.  Add reduced corporate and family fundraising.   Scouts need less hand holding from councils.  The power of a larger council is hard to argue against. 

The only sad sad part is the council leaders will know proportionately fewer of the actual scouts.  

The scout can write his own statement of spiritual beliefs.  Sometimes the other parent can write the statement too.

I did find this. It was our one page "flyer" version for recruitment.  It has a similar one page parent info sheet of about the same length.  

Forgive the formatting.  The original version has multiple columns, quotes and nice formatting and pictures.

<big image>

Boy Scout Troop ###
<city>, <state>
http://<web site>

WHAT IS SCOUTING: Boy Scouts is a boy led program of fun outdoor activities, peer group leadership opportunities, and a personal exploration of career, hobby and special interests, all designed to achieve BSA's objectives of developing character, citizenship and personal fitness.

WHAT DO WE DO: Troop ### offers a traditional scouting program of learning through fun and adventure. At troop meetings, scouts work on skills and advancements; plan camp outs and special activities; make life long friendships; and most importantly, have fun! The following are recent Troop ### camp outs.

Jan – <camp and/or activity>
Feb – <camp and/or activity>
Mar – <camp and/or activity>
Apr – <camp and/or activity>
May – <camp and/or activity>
Jun – <camp and/or activity>

Jul – <camp and/or activity>
Aug – <camp and/or activity>
Sep – <camp and/or activity>
Oct – <camp and/or activity>
Nov – <camp and/or activity>
Dec – <camp and/or activity>

The troop has at least one high adventure trip every year. Past adventures have included the following.

Philmont (120,000 acres in New Mexico)
Florida Sea Base (near Key West)
<regional high adventure>
<regional high adventure>
National Jamborees

MEMBERSHIP: Troop ### is open to all boys ages 11 to 17.  We welcome transition cub scouts, existing scouts and all boys new to scouting.  Some of our scouts are home schooled. Others attend a wide variety of schools in <city>, <city>, <city>, <city>, <city> and <city>.

LEADERS: Our Scoutmaster ###### started scouting in YYYY with his son ##### (Eagle Scout YYYY) and has been Scoutmaster since YYYY.  Mr. ##### is an active member of the community and is a very positive influence on the scouts. Our high adventure coordinator ####### joined in YYYY with his son ###### (Eagle Scout YYYY).  Mr. #######  was raised by his own father in scouting, earned his Eagle as a youth and has served Troop ### in many positions including Scoutmaster. 

ADVANCEMENT: Advancement has many forms.  Skills, rank, leadership, independence, etc. As Troop ### wants every scout to earn the Eagle Scout rank, our program teaches skills, responsibility, leadership and supports advancement. But the real control of advancement is in the hands of each individual scout.

Another form of advancement has to do with developing character, citizenship and physical fitness.  Troop ### is committed to the goals as expressed in the Boy Scouts of America “mission statement”. 

“The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young
people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by
instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.”

SCHOOL? CHURCH? SPORTS? Scouting won’t always be the highest priority. That’s fine. Troop ### encourages scouts to explore life and all opportunities. Scouts participate as they can and have no mandatory minimum attendance requirements. Scouts participate because it is fun and rewarding. 

COST: Scouts are encouraged to pay their own way using the funds they earn through the annual fall popcorn and wreath fundraisers. Annual troop dues are $##. Average weekend camp out is $##.

SCHEDULE: Troop meets on Mondays at 6:45pm with the 4th Monday being a PLC meeting where the scouts in leadership positions update their plans.  
 

19 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Would anyone be willing to share the text of their troop policy? Instead of spending time trying amend our bureaucracy, it would be easier to simply toss it and start over. Since the new SM is on my subcommittee, I see this as a good opportunity to guide them in a better direction.

Wow.  I've been looking, but I can't find it.  We used to hand it out on nights people visited the troop.  We switched scoutmasters years ago and we've not used it since.  And, I can't find it.  

I'll hunt it down.

3 hours ago, ParkMan said:

What works best for us is to get comfortable with the BSA source materials. ...

I fully agree with that.  My experience is troop specific rules are not read, not followed and are just a boat anchor.  BSA has plenty to of guidance and it's best to not compete with all that is already written.  

At most, I'd recommend a short one page white paper.  Dues and when to be paid?  Standard troop meeting schedule?  Web site?  Email?  Troop accounts?  More about the specific HOWs.  Not an additional set of rules.

From my experience, troop specific rules just age and add confusion.  Better to invest learning BSA docs the best you can.  

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

... Virtual High School classes from Stanford or BYU ....

I think there is huge opportunity here.  A virtual high school with a graduation diploma from an Ivory league school would have value.  I know I would have seriously considered this for my kids.