eolesen

That's a great suggestion for a pack heat, but if you have district or even council events, it's still probably giving an unfair advantage. Rules are rules, and creating new rules to accommodate those who don't play by the original rules makes BSA start to look like Congress...

FWIW, I didn't find anything remotely like this at all on the news engines either, including AP and Google (which has a fairly deep list of current local news sources). I did see that there were positive moves in Cradle of Liberty's fight with Philadelphia's city council, but nothing on the order of what the original poster wrote about...

To play devil's advocate for a moment... You're here asking for help on how to get the council to back off, for the good of the kids. If you are really in it for the good of the kids, you wouldn't have filed a lawsuit... Seems to me that the Council should have asked you and/or your wife to step aside before they took this step. If that's the case, and you didn't do so, then they're taking steps that are completely within their right to do. Please don't think I'm taking sides or justifying what the Council has done, but without knowing the details, it is hard to believe that there would be this many professional scouters taking these steps in concert just to retaliate. Area would be the appropriate level to appeal to, but I wouldn't expect much. I don't think you have a lot of choices right now with regard to the boys -- if they don't transfer to other units, they're no longer Boy Scouts once recharters are done. I'd hate to see them fall out of the program while the dispute is worked out.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

One reason for the seasonality of training courses may be the availability of training staff more than anything else. Those of us who do training also usually have ASM or SM positions, and serving the boys in my unit is more important than what I do at the district level. Plus, if you only have a few trainers, they wind up with fatigue and an unhappy home life if they're spending one weekend a month doing classes in addition to whatever they do with their units. There's no reason that you can't be conducting SM training at the district level. Heck, we're looking at setting up a IOLS course for our unit, and opening up enrollment to anyone in the area...

If the committee chair was involved with the warnings given to the parents, and the parents were aware that revoking his membership was a consequence of future misbehavior, maybe. The Scoutmaster in our troop has the ability to suspend/remove a Scout from an activity or meeting, but the Committee Chair and Chartered Rep make the decision to remove a boy from the roster. From Guide to Safe Scouting: "Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it. The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members. The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit. If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action."

Hey, I tried to get it back on track once already in the past 24 hours...

The same way I do with my sons' blue cards, rank advancements, etc -- I scan the book, card, or other "proof" and keep it electronically... I've also found that some troops are more anal about keeping older records than the council. When I couldn't get my records out of the last council I lived in, the troop faxed me my Troopmaster profile with all the dates and course numbers.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

I'm curious how he even got the knot in the first place... it's not available via Scoutstuff, and those are supposed to be "over the counter" at the Scout Store.

Call it a put-down if you want to, but complaining about what you didn't get out of Woodbadge still isn't very productive, Kudu. Maybe you missed the memo, but the teaching of Scoutcraft and other outdoor skills necessary for First Class is alive and well. They're just being done in a different course setting - IOLS. The patrol method is used as the primary method for running that course as well, so I think you're being more than just a little harsh in your opinion that patrol method is in any way being de-emphasized. There are troops who have done that, but I think that's a reflection of leaders not going thru the basic training for their position. With any sort of training or learning environment, you get out of it what you put into it. I know a few other people who voiced the same type of criticism, and they were typically Scouters who acted as though there was nothing left to learn about Scouting. They didn't go into the course with an open mind, and I'll suggest from your own words that you didn't, either, which is unfortunate. Rather than focus on a side-by-side comparison of what WB20C and WB21C provide, you really need to look at what used to exist for leader training before 2000, and what exists today when you look across the spectrum of NLE, Scoutmaster Specifics, IOLS, and WB21C. If you'd like to save some time sitting thru Scoutmaster Fundementals or Intro to Outdoor Leadership with a stopwatch, I'll be happy to send you a link to the syllabus for those two courses. Read thru them. Find me examples where the patrol method is de-emphasised, and then perhaps we can continue the discussion...(This message has been edited by eolesen)

How long you've been in Scouting is just one consideration. If you have time to attend, but don't have the time finish a ticket, it's probably not the right time regardless how long you've been a Scouter. Most newer leaders aren't able to judge how much of time commitment is involved until they've been immersed in Scouting for a while. That's why I commented earlier that beading rates are probably proportional to how long someone has been involved with Scouting before working their ticket. Personally, it has been easier for me to work my ticket now that all of my kids are a little older, since any time I spend working on it means my wife is left to deal with the kids by herself.

Churches are usually a good place to start, especially if they sponsor a troop. Another thought is to contact a unit up in either Longhorn (LonghornCouncil.Org) or CircleTen Council (CircleTen.Org)-- they may be willing to ask their CO if you can use their facility for an overnighter. I have a few contacts still active in Longhorn, so PM me if interested. Failing all that, there is a camp not too far from the museum -- Hills and Hollows is in Denton, and about 20 minutes drive from the museum.

Kudu and Gonzo, this all sounds like a great side topic, but pining away over how WB21C changed the focus of what WB20C did won't do a whole lot to help a new or seasoned leader make a decision on whether or not there's any benefit to attending...

Heck, I don't agree with my wife 100%, so why would I agree with BSA 100%?...

Merlyn, web forums are pretty much exempt from First Amendment protections. You may have initiated a post, but you don't establish the ground rules for conduct on the forums. That inalienable right belongs to Scouter Terry and his team of admins and moderators. If you don't want to respect their higher authority, that's up to you, but the fact is that it's their show, and our ability to meet here is a privilege they can limit or revoke at any time. As for edits (which I just did...) you don't have to delete the apostrophes -- just replace each instance with two apostrophes... it's probably something really easy to fix in the underlying code, but this is a volunteer effort...(This message has been edited by eolesen)

Gee, a move by National that everyone should be in agreement on...

...and Venturing also uses red unit numbers.

The forum rules are simple: keep it civil, and no personal insults. It's one thing to attack an argument or a position. It's yet another to attack the person. You've crossed that line and even (somewhat proudly?) admitted to it. Something else I learned along the way that you might want to consider: beating a dead horse doesn't make it get up and move.

Here's some official speak... "The mission of the Region is to provide liaison between the National Council and local councils to achieve the purposes of Scouting and to maintain the standards, policies and procedures established by the Boy Scouts of America. The region is responsible for the achievement of approved goals and for the effective operation of each of its councils. The region is also responsible for the proper alignment of councils, for assuring sufficient volunteer and professional leadership in each council, and for assuring the effective funding of each council." "The Region is divided into Areas for the purpose of service delivery, communications and maintaining standards. The area committee consists of regional committee members residing in the geographic area and members at large recruited from the councils. At the time of the Regional Annual Meeting, Area Presidents are elected and become members of the Regional Executive Committee. Area Presidents in consultation with the Area Director may structure such cluster vice presidents and committees required to carry out the service and communications functions. These functions include Council Charter Review, Camp Visitation and Certification, Charter Partner Relationships, Promotion of National and Regional events and providing for special council needs or concerns. "

Nah, I'd already broken the rules on the other thread and pointed out what appeared to be ad hominum remarks, which Merlyn clarified to be intended as insults. That in turn got the thread (rightfully) closed down. I'm inclined to agree with you that there's no real basis for saying a public school can't also charter a unit and still be in compliance with the spirit of the establishment clause. Many athiests take the approach that it means government free from religion, where as others like me take it to mean a government which is not controlled by any one religion. We have charter schools here in AZ which sponsor Cub Scout packs. Obviously there are a lot of people who purposely steer clear of any potential conflict, and just say no to everyone rather than risk being the next target of an activist lawsuit. This may be a silly question, but for the units I've been involved with, the CO provides nothing aside from a place to meet. There's no money changing hands. So, how are taxpayer funds being used illegally?

Got a holiday seasonal catalog from BSA Supply Group today that includes XGO-BSA poly underwear to go with your switchbacks. Official BSA underwear has arrived. I can't wait for the reaction from the uniform police! Nah, it's just further evidence of how far BSA National is really under the LDS's thumb...

I was four years into being an ASM when I signed up, and I was glad to have that under my belt (along with my no-official-responsibility experience from Cubs and Webelos with my oldest son). Half of my patrol were freshly minted leaders who signed up for the first WB course that came up on the calendar after they'd joined Scouting. I'm sure they got a lot out of it, but it was pretty obvious that they were drinking from a firehose at a few points... They also had a much harder time coming up with ticket ideas than those of us who had a few years of practical experience. So, while I'd never discourage someone from attending regardless of how long they'd been in Scouting, I don't go out of my way to advertise it when facilitating New Leader Essentials or talking with incoming Webelos parents... Many of the participants in my course were in their first year as a leader. Anecdotally, that's pretty typical of courses in that council, and only about 60% of the participants actually get around to earning their beads. I'd expect that the percentage of people getting their beads goes up in proportion to the number of years they've been involved with Scouting, so my advice to someone who asks about it will continue to be "wait until you're ready." (This message has been edited by eolesen)

Next, we'll have all-red, blue, and green knots so the boys know which leaders they can discuss politics with.... Discussions over sexuality between a Scout and a registered adult have absolutely no place in the Scouting program. Period. There are times and places where it is appropriate, but not in Scouting. Likewise for politics....

It's inappropriate under the forum rules, Merlyn. Refer to the following: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewthread.asp?threadID=5358

It would appear that a bump is appropriate again...

Is this the place I can say that Merlyn is acting a little childish with the name-calling?....