emb021

"The mission statement should really come from the Venturers themselves."

I'd say yes and no.

It depends on what the mission statement is for. (or maybe that should be who its for).

There is a Vision and there is a Mission Statement.

A Vision is what the group is striving to become.

The Mission is what the group does. (does what? Implement that Vision).

For me, this Vision/Mission for the overall Venturing program needs to be a sort of top-level, all-encompassing. And it may not necessarily be about from the Venturers.

This is true of many organizations which have lofty vision/missions that may not seem to matter much to those at the lowest levels.

What the Venturers should be focusing on, that "on-the-ground mission statement" is their CREW'S Vision & Mission. Which should be expressed in the materials they use to market their crew, and bring people to join them.

"Personally I'm not in favor of requiring two signatures on checks, it's too burdensome for my taste."

For a unit committee that meets at least monthly, and is all in the same town, it shouldn't be a big deal.

My Toastmasters district, which covers all of South Florida and the Bahamas has to do 2 signatures on checks. Our district leadership only meets 6 times a year, so if the Treasurer needs to cut a check in between, must find one of the other district officers nearby. So this can delay sending out a check by several day. But I don't see anyone complaining about that.

2 signatures won't stop everything, but its still a good procedure.

"The red-headed step child of Scouts are the Sea Scouts, not Cub Scouts. "

true in many places. And Venturing is usually close behind them.

Most places, the Boy Scout leaders are treated best, then Cub Scout leaders. Venturing leaders are a very distant third, with Sea Scout leaders lumped in with them, or behind them.

Hmmm.

this sort of things have been brought up here. In the past, I pointed out the basic practices that most other organizations follow the help avoid this. Of course, it seems most scout leaders scoff at following them.

Here are how most groups handle this.

* bank account requiring 2 signatures on checks.

* receipt book is also a good idea.

* ANY payments made must be approve by the organization, and recorded in the meeting minutes. Even for routine items.

* Treasurer presents a monthly report, stating where the money is coming and going. these are kept.

* an annual audit is conducted. This does NOT need to be done by a CPA (nice, if you can do so for free). It should be done by 3 people, NONE of whom should be the treasurer. They review the treasurers monthly reports AND the bank statements. Their job is to ensure everything is ok. This audit should be done before a new treasurer (appointed or elected annual) take on the office.

When there is no oversight, things can go wrong.

Quick notes.

Its GSUSA, NOT GSA.

Also, its Campfire USA. It used to be Campfire Girls. Then when they went co-ed in the 70s was Campfire Boys and Girls. Campfire Girls used to have a long-time connection with the BSA, and was viewed by many as their counterpart for girls, NOT GSUSA.

They are smaller then either the BSA or GSUSA. They don't even exit in all states.

Exibar-

"I didn't have to pay for my own woodbadge class B/beads/necker/slide in addition to the course fees."

No, because the cost of those items was INCLUDED in your course fee.

Remember that ALL National gets from the Scouts is the membership fees. Nothing else. So how/why assume they'd get a lot of stuff from that?

There is no square knot. It's not the highest award in Venturing, so it doesn't get a knot.

qwase- the knot you are referring to is for Explorer Scouts who earned the old Explorer Scout Ranger award, which is a different award.

There is nothing wrong with them wearing the medal on formal occasions, same as for wearing their religious medal(s) earned as a youth and the like.

I had heard that its ok for adults to continue to wear the Ranger bar. I know I wouldn't have an issue with an adult who did that.

"No, we get it. However, some folks seem to think that even listing your title is too much too."

I would agree.

I had someone who sent out an email, and for some reason left off his position. When I forward it along to others, I added it, because to me it was important for the context of the message and because the people I was forwarding it to would not know that. (using twocubdad's post, it would be like getting an important email from the lodge adviser who left of their position as lodge adviser). The person sent me a very angry email about doing that, which I thought was strange. Had I altered the message, I could see that, but adding their title??

Well, now you need to get involved with the council VOA and show the other crews & ships how it should be done...

What qwazse says. It can be hard.

While I don't advise Venturing crews anymore, I have/do advise VOAs and an APO chapter. Sometimes you have to be more involved at the beginning, and then step back. When my chapter had membership issues, I was more involved (more because they just needed more manpower), now I mainly sit in the back of meetings, give input as needed. If I see that I need to be more involved, I don't take over, I instead engage with the appropriate officers, work with them to get matters addressed.

Those who too often come from a Cub Scout or Boy Scout background don't get that, I've found. This leads to the crews who seem more like "advanced boy scout groups with girls", if you will, with the advisors running the show.

"It doesn't state never under any circumstances can you wear a medal and knot/badge at the same time. I don't think whne the regulations were written it was intended that cloth badges had to be taken off to wear the medal or that everyone had to have two shirts. "

General practice is to wear knots all the time on your uniform shirt. (frankly, I've never understood the logic of some who create these boards to hold their knots which pin them to their shirt, like military ribbons. Why bother?)

Medals are for formal occasions, which means courts of honor, awards banquets, etc. Regular meetings, camping trips, roundtables, etc, are NOT formal occasions. NO ONE has a problem with someone wearing their medals at a formal occasion while they are also wearing the knot.

"Knowing that there are not "ranks," but rather there is a more graduated way of advancement, is it possible, that a Life Scout could be President and an Eagle could be nothing at all? Or is there deference paid to the ranks, from Boy Scouts? I know that most Eagles are more mature and are more leader oriented, but does that matter with Venturers or cause friction? I tend to think not, but I would like to hear how that has worked too... "

In Venturing, we have advancement, but we DON'T have ranks.

The idea is that a Venturer who has a venturing award (whether its Bronze, Gold or Silver) is NO WAY 'out ranks' a Venturer who doesn't have an award. So eligibility to hold an office in the crew should NOT be tied to advancement, and certainly NOT Boy Scout advancement.

"This brings up another question. I would really like to have it be co-ed. But, certain aspects are male only (such as serving the extra ordinary form). Are there ways to specialize, such as having a mixed schola, made up of male and female Scouts, while reserving serving to the male Scouts only? And if that is too tough, then would it be better to talk to the CO about it being a male only Crew? "

Best way, I think, to handle that is that make this serving stuff NOT be tied directly to the crew. Make it an extra thing that SOME in the crew COULD do, if they met the requirements (which could include things like being male, being Catholic). That can help with making the crew co-ed and open to non-Catholics, if that's what you'd like.

For me, this was actually one of the turn off of my church's youth group. They tried to ALSO treat the whole youth group as ALSO being the youth choir, rather then something extra & separate. As me and my brothers had NO interest in being in the youth choir, that was one of the reasons we gravitated to youth groups at our friends' churches (none of which did this).

First off, keep in mind it a "Venturing Crew", not a "venture crew". the terms are not interchangable.

"This does bring me to another question though...while we would look at this being a predominantly Catholic endeavor, is there anything prohibiting that? If a Lutheran or a Baptist wanted to join and engage in what we are doing, I would be inclined to accept them, as the adult advisor, but the Scout would need to know that the crew has a Catholic bent to it. Is that something which would be feasable, or is it best to keep it Catholic?"

The Crew is owned by the Charter Org. There is NOTHING wrong with the CO forming a Catholic youth ministries Venturing Crew, with a 'Catholic bent'. And nothing wrong with telling people who want to join that that is the way it is, and they are free to join or not. The same would be true of a church youth group. While most would think the church youth group may be exclusive to the church's youth membership, such groups could attract the friends of the church's youth, who may not be part of the denomination. They may feel that being with their friends is more important then the fact its a different denomination. And, who knows, the kids may convert. Or not. So you might want to have some discussions with your CO leadership, to see if they are open to a crew that may be predominately Catholic, but that may attract youth who aren't Catholic, and would they have an issue with that, and with not being too pushy about it.

I don't think you should have too much of a problem as I know that troops chartered to Catholic churches are not exclusively Catholic, and I know of such troops being lead by non-Catholic leaders. And I know that the Nat Committee on Catholic Scouting (or whatever its called) has actually created some religious awards that can be earned by non-Catholic youth, so am sure they are open to the idea that their troops (and crews) can have non-Catholic youth.

As an example, my family is Methodist, but me and my brothers never really got into our churches youth group. We mainly got involved with youth groups with our friends churches, with were Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc, and there were no issues with that.

"Thanks, that does help. I think that as we get going, we want this to be focused on ministry, but we would like to be open to exposing them to more than just a church related experience. While that is the main focus, we'd like to see them grow in other areas as well. Is the built in flexibility able to accommodate something of that nature?

In other words, is it possible to have them combine ministry and outdoors, if that is something that interests the group?"

YES, you can certain be a youth ministries crew that has a good outdoor orientation. Realize that you have both the religious life AND outdoor bronze awards your youth can work on, and they can then do the TRUST (religious life expert award), Ranger (outdoor expert award), as well as GOLD and Silver (highest Venturing award).

Crews CAN (and should) be flexible with their program. We DO want their program to be well rounded (social, service, leadership, citizenship, etc, should ALL be part of the mix). The mistake some people make (mostly hard nosed adult) is putting the crew into a narrow box and refusing to allow them to go beyond that. Being a "scuba crew" does not prevent a crew from going out for an afternoon of shooting or going bowling, and doing so doesn't negate that their main focus is SCUBA.

Let me try to answer your questions. Other may have a different take.

1. What are the bare minimums for getting a crew started?

You need 5 youth, 5 adults, and you need someone or some group to be your chartered organization. Some of the youth can be dual-enrolled (ie, they could also be Boy Scouts).

2. How much direction am I supposed to be giving, as opposed to allowing them the freedom to explore and grow this on their own.

More so then in Boy Scouts, Venturing is supposed to be youth-led and youth-run. You can give direction at the beginning to get things going, but the kids may want to take it in a different direction, and so you need to be open to that happening.

The thing is the crew DOES need to have something to focus on. Their specialty. You may set it down, and this will attract kids who want to do that. But who knows where it takes you and them?

3. Is Venturing always geared toward "high-adventure?"

NOPE. Venturing crews will fall into one of 5 categories: outdoors, arts/hobbies, sports, youth ministries (basically church youth groups), or Sea Scouts. When one speaks of "high adventure", its usually some of the outdoor crews, maybe also Sea Scouts.

Even then, the types of crews can be mindboggling to those not open to the possibilities. I know of role play game crews, anime crews, SAR crews, outdoor crews, scuba crews, sailing crews, music crews, soccer crews, church youth group crews, WWII re-enactment crews, Civil war re-enactment crews, mountainman/frontiersman crews and more.

4. Is the structure, administratively, close to a Boy Scout troop?

Not sure what you mean.

A crew is organized like a club, so they have a president, 2 or more vice-presidents, secretary, treasurer and other officers that fits their needs. They have adults serve as advisor and associate advisor(s), plus a crew committee of adults overseeing and backing them up. the adult structure is similar to all scout units, but how the crew runs is NOT like a troop. There are nothing like a patrol in Venturing crews.

5. What are the major advantages/disadvantages to having it be co-ed and what is your experience with co-ed Scouting?

The major advantage of being co-ed is you have a MUCH larger group of potential members then if you limit it to just boys. Disadvantages is that you MUST have male and female leadership willing to attend meetings AND events to be successful, and you need to be mindful of the issues of having boys AND girls of that age together (dating and all that). Setting guidelines and boundaries (by the YOUTH, not you or other adults) is usually key here.

I am used to co-ed scouting for years under the days of Exploring. I've dealt with it in forming VOAs. I also deal with something similar as an advisor to a co-ed college fraternity.

Those who take issue with co-ed scouting/venturing are, IMO, being myopic.

"Our Council has an active Venturing Committee, but the current VOA is a dysfunctional at best. Our crew stopped attending the VOA's since nothing was happening, they kept changing the meeting place and location, and really, there was no benefit to our participation. "

Its a two-way street.

What did YOUR crew do to help the VOA become more functional? Leaving does no good. Remember, the VOA is made up of representatives from ALL the crews. So your crew, like all the others, have a responsibility to the VOA and YOUR council venturing program.

Changing the meeting place/location is neither good or bad. We move ours around because our council is big, and some locations are good for some, but not others, so we move it around (as decided by the YOUTH) so that we aren't inconviencing the same group of people each month.

"emb....your wondering why they aren't lowering costs??????? "

I am wondering why COUNCILS aren't lowering their cost for Jamboree, with a good reason for a chunk of their fees (tentage, patrol gear, dinning fly, picnic tables, etc, along with other items that are often also tacked on) is now being covered by the National fee AND this National fee is NOT raising. (its $800 this year, it was $800) last year.

Doing this should cut out several hundred dollars in costs.

"I completely disagree with the jambo participants footing the bill for new tenting at council camps.... We could decrease the cost by $200 per scout easily....

I think that the cost should go down by the cost of the tenting and gear..... "

Yup, exactly my point!!!

"I'll always be shocked at the price. $2000? Why does the BSA need a $100,000,000 profit? How about reduce price so the average scout can attend."

$2000 for a 2 week trip is pretty reasonable.

And the cost for the Jamboree is actually about $800. THAT is how much National is charging, and in INCLUDES tent, patrol gear, duffle bag, knapsack, and a t-shirt or two. (all of which in the past was NOT included, and which the councils had to cover with their fee) National is probably LOOSING money on that deal.

Anything above that is being charged by YOUR council. That should be for travel to and from the jamboree and any touring. MY council is charging about that much, and the kids will get a lot. The guy in charge (our VP-Program), is hoping to come UNDER budget, and return the surplus to the kids. A neighboring council is charging MORE and is doing LESS. Go figure.

Why some councils aren't LOWERING their Jamboree costs from past years, I have no idea, since they now don't have to worry about tents, patrol gear, etc.

Again, sounds like a lodge that could use some revamping.

Ordeal candidates are supposed to get a letter about the ordeal, informing them of what they need to do and bring.

Ordeals should be major events of the lodge. Most lodges have a major ordeal, then may do 1-2 'make up' ordeals at other lodge events (lodges usually only have about 4 weekend events a year). Usually at the main ordeal, most of the lodge members are busy doing service work at camp. Most everyone would be busy, either as elongomats for the ordeal candidates or doing other work. And its a weekend event. Starts on Friday evening, doesn't finish until Sunday morning. For everyone! (like all OA weekends). Bad enough we have parents coming to take new Ordeal members home on Saturday night without OA youth members just coming for the day.

As noted, Ordeal candidates usually pay a higher price then the standard weekend fee because the price will include flap, sash, card, manual and whatever else the lodge gives them. Borrowing sashes for the ceremony is only done if someone had messed up and they are short sashes. Because the lodge controls the flaps, cards, sashes and manuals, this is part of why have this package deal.

Also, usually in the evening, most lodges will open up their 'box' of stuff to sell (extra event patches, flaps, manuals, other stuff the lodge may have like t-shirts, belts, etc).

The general practice is you wear your lodge's current flap. The flap is the day to day sign that you are a member of your lodge. Once you are in the lodge, start wearing it.

NOAC flaps are really intended for those lodge members who attended NOAC (same for Jamboree). So if you didn't attend, kind of poor idea to wear them.

Wearing old flaps is usually only seen by those who were members when that flap was put out. To wear a flap that came out before one was a member would also be seen as strange. Same with anniversary flaps. If you weren't a member during that anniversary, why are you wearing it?

Some lodges change their flap every 2-3 years or so. As only the current members can usually get the flap (as they are only sold at lodge events), this is a good way to catch people who have forgotten to pay their dues and encourage them to do so.

Me, I wear my lodge's current flap. When a new one comes out, I change it out. I've long ago stopped bothering to wear jambo or noac flaps.

"So where am I going with this - The BSA needs to put some oversight into the Lone Scout program. There needs to be an advisor that oversees the Scout's advancement and makes sure that requirements are in fact being done, not just Mommy saying Junior did it."

There IS an "advisor". They are known as the Lone Scout Counselor. Problem occurs when the counselor is the scout's parent. (which may be their own choice)

"Patrol Method?

Youth Leadership?

Adult Association?"

These are not fundamentals of scouting.

The fundamentals of scouting is duty to God, Country, Self.

Don't confuse the METHODS with FUNDAMENTALS.

"I know no one is arguing this, but if this is such a great thing we could save all sorts of time and money by dissolving units and letting all the boys become Lone Scouts. If it works in the margins it should work in the extremes.

Lone Scouting needs to be a program of last resort for those with a real need, not a trap door for parents who just don't want the hassel of being in a unit."

Yes, I would agree with the final point.

"Typically, the membership cards, a sash, a lodge flap, and often a book, are presented to the new members right after they complete Ordeal, including the ceremonies."

Ditto.

The cost of these items are usually included in the Ordeal, and all are given to the new Arrowmen at the end of the Ordeal weekend. Most lodges do it that way.

Only variant I've heard of is when some lodges hold back some items until the next lodge weekend to encourage attendance. Never heard of a lodge that forced a kid to buy it all on their own, especially as with most lodges, you can only buy them FROM the lodge, and thus only at a lodge weekend.

You just answered the question.

An Ordeal member is a full member of the order, allowed to hold any OA office, vote, etc.

"I know I am probably wrong on this, but I think the Lone Scout program was designed for kids that had diplomat/military type parents that moved around outside the US a lot, for kids that lived in remote areas with no troops, and kids with extreme disabilities that just could not get to a troop meeting. That may not be the letter, but I think it was the spirit. And those situations can occur today just as they occurred in 1912."

Kind of.

the original Lone Scout program was created for rural boys who could not find even enough boys nearby to form a patrol. This was something Boyce felt strongly about, in part because his papers were sold in rural america by a large cadre of newspaper boys. To those of us today, we may not understand this. Heck, even the BSA tried to have a program to reach out to these youth, but was not as successful.

the idea was extended to any boy, who, for whatever reason (travel, disabilities, etc) preventing him from find other boys to form a troop with. (tho I've read early LSA materials that even mentioned it was great for shy boys who couldn't bring themselves to go to a meeting and join).

In the LSA, there WERE groups formed. It was never an isolated program. Local boys formed tribes. There were mail tribes and radio tribes formed. Boostering (recruiting members) was big, and even bigger was amateur journalism, writing for the Lone Scout magazine or the various tribal papers.

While its great for boys to be part of a patrol or troop, to somehow claims that doing so is a fundamental part I don't quite buy.

For boys who legitimately can't get to a troop meeting (distance, travel, health, etc), I find those reasons to be in Lone Scouting. Other reasons (home schooling) I find lame.