emb021

"Makes it seem that Boy scouts of America has joined the "No left Behind" syndrome by making an Earned Award an "at a boy" for everyone."

While I can understand you sentiment, the problem is the World Crest was never created to BE an award, earned or not.

It was meant to be a symbol of world scouting that ALL Scouts would wear to show they are part of a world-wide movement.

The BSA kind of messed that up by making the World Crest be something you could only earn. Other countries instead created other patches for that purpose. The BSA kind of does as well, with the International Participant patch.

So what the BSA finally did was get in line with everyone else in the world. Nothing more. This was done a LONG time before the "everyone gets an award" attitude started to come to the forefront.

It kind of happened in one area of my community when I was a scout and young scout leader.

In a growing community area there was only one troop. An LDS troop. So all the scout-age kids joined it. But as most people know, how LDS runs their troops is not how most people do it (that's neither good or bad), so this caused a lot of friction between the LDS and non-LDS parents and scouts.

So eventually, a second troop was spun off of this unit. Funny thing was the LDS troop was #52. So the new troop was #25.

"Not to split hairs but there is NO OFFICIAL WRITTEN MANDATE from National supporting your claims."

No, there is no official written mandate. But its clear that's the direction that it seems to be going, and pretty much the recommendation I'm hearing from higher ups: if under 18, go to NYLT, if 18 and older, go to WB.

"IMO, and from a logical point of view Boy Scout and Venturing leader training should be seperate because the programs are very different as are the goals."

Won't disagree with you there. I've said this from day one as a current Venturing leader and a past Boy Scout and Boy Scout leader who is also a Wood Badger, as well as someone with a lot of experience (tho none 'professionally') in the area of leadership development training. But every time I do I'm attacked by people on-line for being a big meanie who is trying to deny people from going to WB or the like.

Forgotten is the fact that we used to have program-specific Wood Badge courses (Explorer Wood Badge, Varsity Scout Wood Badge, Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge, Rover Wood Badge, and Seabadge was basically created to be "Sea Scout Wood Badge"). But the current direction of the BSA seems to be a 'we're all one big family' so its 'one size fits all'...

This has also affected PTC, where there are no-longer program focused weeks, with less program-specific courses, and what there is scattered thru out.

""Venturers under 18 should go to NYLT and over 18 to WB, that is National policy" - emb021 "

"Sorry emb021 that is NOT, NOT National policy."

Sorry Baden P, but it kind of is National policy. Maybe not stated that way. (I said 'should' not 'must' or 'have to')

ALL BSA members 18 and up are expected to go to Wood Badge, NOT NYLT. The current Wood Badge syllabus says that participants of WB are 18 and older. So 18 and older Ventuers should be going to WB.

This is covered in the "Who May Attend Wood Badge?" page from the Wood Badge Admin Guide. I am looking at the 2011 edition (511-591 @2008 2010 printing with 2011 updates).

1. Be registered members of the Boy Scout of America (Youth older then 18 may attend as long as appropriate Youth Protection guidelines are followed. They do not need to be registered in an adult leadership role.)

In other works, Venturers 18 and older can attend Wood Badge AS VENTURERS, not 'snuck in' as registered ASMs or the like (which is what was happening in many cases).

This is a change in policy for Wood Badge that was actually implemented in the 2010 edition (which I also have a copy of). Which is interesting, as this happened the same time that NYLT officially was changed to allow Venturers to attend.

As for NYLT, nothing BARS the 18 and older Venturer from attending, but its clear that the preference is that they go thru WB as participants and not NYLT. And as the 2 courses are VERY similar, they aren't loosing anything. And there certainly wouldn't be any issue if these older Venturers then came back and staffed NYLT.

And everything I've been hearing from others bears this out.

"Another point, position-specific training does not transfer!"

well, yeah, that's the point of it being POSITION-SPECIFIC. It only applies TO THAT POSITION.

You change position, you need to take the training for that position.

"In the meantime, it looks like now Kodiak is open to Boy Scouts. What for? I think that was done just to "make it fair." Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. "

Uh, Kodiak from day one was NEVER exclusively "Venturing only". It was designed such that it could be presented to ANY youth: Boy Scouts, non scouts (say church youth group kid), etc.

If you noticed, Kodiak was all about leadership, not about how to run a crew.

As to WB/NYLT. As it currently stands, Venturers UNDER 18 should go to NYLT. Those 18 and over should go to Wood Badge. This IS National policy.

This is the file to check out: http://scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/What_makes_a_trained_leader.pdf

There is a chart at National you need to be following to determine who is trained.

It different from the position.

AFAIK, Fast Start/This is Scouting is NO LONGER required to be considered trained.

By an large, its YPT (and note there are 2 different courses for adults: general and Venturing) and position specific training. SOME leaders will need additional training (IOLS for certain ones).

"we just want them to leave us alone so we can get started."

Get over it. This is not how it works in any organization.

Part of the job of the councils are to TRAIN the leaders of the units so that they are delivering the promise of scouting to the youth. So saying you want to be 'left alone' is the wrong attitude, and I think most would see this as a warning sign that things may not be right in that group.

And I can tell you this is true in many many orgs. Many of the ones I am have groups similar to BSA councils whose job it is to training the leaders of the local groups, oversee things, and insure that the program of that group is being delivered.

In reading over this thread it seems clear that you and others in your Pack don't understand how things work (whether in the BSA or in other orgs as well). I recommend that you sit down and read over the very good advice that others here have given you.

I like the wisdom of Mr. Garrison: "there are no stupid questions, just stupid people".

Yeah, well, that's my concern with the current NYLT.

In an effort to include Venturing (which has a different organizational structure from Boy Scouts), I think they have changed NYLT to be less effective for Boy Scouts.

Yes, leadership is leadership. But there are different ways that leadership can be presented (this is something I've written on on-line in the past, but I see to get nothing from it).

You can present leadership skills and concepts as such. (whether its to cover situational leadership, servant leadership, goal setting, conflict resolution, etc).

Or you can teach people how to do their job. (teach people how to be the president, senior patrol leader, secretary/scribe, etc).

Or you can present leadership skills concepts AND teach people how to do their job in an environment modeled on an idealized group. (teach the club officers in an environment where they are organized into a mock club). This is how Wood Badge and NYLT (and its predecessors) were set up.

Problem is that Venturing Crews and Boy Scout Troops are NOT structured the same. So how can you mix participants from both programs into an idealized group that is relevant to both? You can't. You either have to put them into a structure that models a troop (which is meaningless and probably confusing to Venturers), or a crew (ditto for Boy Scouts being confused), or some third form (which may be meaningless and possibly confusing to both).

The better thing would have been to leave NYLT alone and create a form of NYLT relevant to Venturing. Fat chance of that happening. And putting that up as an idea will get you pilloried for being a mean, nasty person trying to prevent Venturers from taking the neat and cool NYLT course.

(forgotten in all of this is how many Crews camp such that their youth would really WANT to attend NYLT etc...)

"Venturers in a Venture Crew choose their uniform"

Please note, the program is called Venturing, so the units are called Venturing Crews.

"Within the last year a new uniform has been introduced. Grey stretch switchbacks and a dk green performance fabric with back vent."

Within the last year? NOPE. That uniform was rolled out a 2-3 years ago. They discounted the prior uniform and I picked up a couple of old shirts that way. I don't care for the new fabric. Its stretching and am told it will melt. Pass. I like 'fishing shirts', but not the material and design of the new Venturing shirt.

Wasn't aware that Venture had their own uniform. Venture Patrols are part of Boy Scout Troops, and so the boys in the Venture Patrol would just wear the regular Boy Scout uniform.

Around here the councils don't have the numbers to have more then one NYLT course per year, so they are open to Venturers.

This is what the current syllabus calls for, so its not an option for councils to run in any other way.

"I don't see what dressing up in fake Indian gear (I've never seen anything that looks like the native dress of any particular tribe in any of our OA events) and doing fake drumming and fake dances has to do with Boy Scouts, being an honor society, or giving service to others."

I can't speak for YOUR lodge, but in my area, the gear is NOT fake, the drumming is NOT fake, and the dances are NOT fake.

Many people put a lot of time, effort, money, and research into creating accurate outfits, both for ceremonies AND for dance (they aren't the same). The drummers and singers are doing real, authentic songs, many times taught to them by real Native Americans, which would be accepted at any legit Pow Wow, and the dancers are in proper clothing and doing proper dancing that, again, would be accepted at any legit Pow Wow. (and many are).

We have drummers, singers, and dancers in our area who actually are involved in the larger world of Native American Pow Wows, some even traveling around the country to some of the major pow wows. Nothing fake about them.

In addition, we've had several youth who have become professors of anthropology thru their interest in Native American culture they gained in the OA, working with real tribes and doing real research on their culture. Again, nothing fake about them.

Yeah, as we've pointed out many times on this and similar treads, there are lodges out there with cr*py outfits and poor drumming, dancing, etc. Please do NOT insult everyone else by acting like that is the norm or the like.

"Tokala's post: Lokota songs in Florida, and Delaware tribe in Oklahoma. Seems a bit odd to me. I don't want to read anything into it, but I'm curious why local tribes or cultures weren't chosen instead. "

It depends on the usage.

When it comes to ceremonial outfits, most lodges like to use the local tribes for inspiration. Down here in Florida, that means the Seminoles.

But when it comes to getting drum/dance teams going, the general style is to following the drumming/dancing that is seen at Pow Wows. This means southern or northern drumming and singing, and following the usual dance styles: fancy, grass, northern traditional, old style, etc. So in many cases the local tribes aren't done BUT might by some lodges. Hence you'll see wining team dances from Florida using Seminole, Pacific Northwest using those tribes, and New England area using Iroquois, etc.

My experience is similar to Tokala's.

Many OA members and many lodges spend a lot of time and effort researching Native American Culture to get it right. In some OA Sections, you get some very high caliber people coming out to teach NA culture. And many lodges have good relations with their local tribes and experts from that area.

Yeah, you will sadly get certain individuals, or even certain lodge or sections in which the level of knowledge when it comes to 'indian lore' is pretty poor. But to tar everyone with the same brush isn't right.

It's telling that the people who are usually the ones to get bent out of shape about the OA's usage of indian lore are seldom american indians...

Sigh...

The purpose for bylaws in any organization is to define how that organization operates. Bylaws are, in fact, necessary and required for pretty much all organizations. Bylaws will define things like membership, officers, meetings, and the like. I'm a parliamentarian. I am familiar with bylaws. I have been involved in writing and revising bylaws for several groups.

Bylaws, however, do not deal with behavior issues or issues of policy/procedure. That is NOT their purpose. For instance, what moosetracker mentioned are things that DO NOT BELONG IN BYLAWS, but would (if they were appropriate) go in a policies/procedure document.

Bylaws should be available to ALL members of an organization, whether you provide them to members in a "members book" or on-line or the like.

THAT SAID.

Bylaws are NOT needed for Troop Committees because the information that would be those bylaws are found in sources like the troop committee guidebook. IF they were needed, the BSA would provide a set of model bylaws and expect all troop committees to create their own set and submit them and the like. (this is what other organizations do that require their constituent bodies to have bylaws). They don't. So they aren't needed or required.

And, frankly, 9 times out of 10 when people are talking about "troop bylaws" or the like, what you have are really policies and procedures documents A GOOD PORTION OF WHICH set down policies/procedures that are NOT what the BSA says should be done.

If you want to create a policies/procedures document for your unit, go ahead. Just be sure you understand:

* they are not bylaws

* they should not try to overrule any BSA policy.

* EVERYONE has a copy of them

All the troops I know of have summer meetings.

Yes, they will have some boys absence because family trips, but otherwise they have meetings.

If the troop is away for a week-long trip, no meeting that week.

This was one of the differences I had to learn about Boy Scouts vs Cub Scouts.

you have to wonder how much the age shift is due to the action of certain scouters or just a factor of life for the scouts...

I've seen the shoulder patch worn on the right sleeve of some scout troops chartered to AL posts.

FYI, there is no such thing as a "Venturing Scout". The youth are called "Venturers". Please use the correct terms.

"Lodges provide a current handbook to all new members for free..We Pay if we lose it or need to update it. "

I know of no lodge that provides the current handbook FREE to new members.

New members pay a fee which covers ALL their costs. The lodge does NOT pick it up. This fee will usually cover:

* the membership dues for the next year

* the weekend fee for the event (which will usually include a patch)

* lodge flap

* sash

* OA Handbook

* any other materials the lodge provides to the new member

NOTHING IS FREE.

You really need to learn the concept of 'pay your own way'. Nonsense like "yes I can access it but OA does not pay for my Internet" makes you sound arrogant and stupid. Get over this idea that the organization needs to provide you with stuff.

Adam S-

yes, in the old days there were local scout distributors setup in many local department stories. This was before the days of Interstates and the like, so going to where our council office was was more of a day long trip (up and back). By interstate its about a hour roundtrip.

By the 90s or so, the local scout distributors started to drop as National started to setup Scout Shops in local council offices, which were often better run & stocked then the old council shops, and sometimes would run satellite offices at scout camps (in cases where they might be closer to some then the council office).

The advent of internet sales has made it easier to get stuff, plus the improvement in shipping. (ie, now a days I can order something on-line and get it in a week, whereas in the past you'd order something and wait several weeks).

As noted, using a local shop is better for buying clothes, as you can try them on. When I had to get official scout shorts, I routinely tried them on, as the sizing for some reason didn't match what I could get in clothes stores. I knew I could reasonably go an buy size X at the local GAP, but knew I couldn't get the same size with scout shorts, and would usually have to get a couple sizes different.

"I just have no idea how to weave the cord so to look proper."

There should be places on-line to find out braiding instructions.

I would think the cords used 2 ply. (ie, 2 paracord cords braided or woven together should do). But its been awhile since I've looked at denner cords.

I'm an introvert.

Frankly, Scouting (among other things) is what has helped me overcome this. It was the first place I was a leader of others, it was one of the first places that I got in front of a group to lead and speak with others.

Yeah, those that are extroverts will thrive in Scouting, but so can the introverts (and more importantly, become less of an introvert).