emb021

"Someone had mentioned in another thread something about 18-21 year olds taking NYLT. I don't think that should happen. They should go to Wood Badge instead. However, that's a totally different subject ... should they take Wood Badge as a youth participant? I don't like it. As a dual registered adult? OK. Anybody have experience with that? "

I think I would leave it up to each older Venturer to decide if they want to do NYLT or WB. And I would recommend that if they do decide to take NYLT that they should wait a few years before taking WB, due to the similarity.

What difference would it make if they went as a "youth participant" or a "dual registered adult"?? My former Council venturing President went thru WB as a Cub Scout leader. At the time they hadn't yet opened up WB to older Venturing youth. As she was a little more mature then your average 18-21 year old, I figured she'd do fine.

"A question regarding NYLT: Are we supposed to assume Venturers know how to camp and cook? When First Class Scouts participate, we know the answer to that. How about Venturers?"

And that is a good question.

I think a problem is that people assume that all Venturing Crews are outdoor crews: that they camp and cook outdoors and the like. Many are. Many are not. What do you do with Venturers who come from non-camping crews or no prior camping experience (from art/hobby crews, youth ministries crews, sports crews, etc)??? Same could be said for Cub Scout leaders with no camping experience going to WB, but atleast there most people recommend such people go to IOLS first to get some experience.

"How many councils do you think are prepared to understand and support non-camping Crews? I know what the model looks like on paper, but I also see the reality on the ground and most professionals aren't geared for arts and hobbies, sports or religion."

Who cares about the professionals.

Its important that the volunteer membership supporting Venturing understands this and can support it. For instance, in many councils you have a religious committee. Such a committee could work to support youth ministries crews. That's what I am looking to see happen in my council.

And am trying to get some interest in getting a HacKid Conference in my area, and get Venturers involved. May lead to some STEM-based crews starting.

If you look at other countries (I've actually wondered if anyone has done a country by country comparison), you will find that many countries use similar age groupings, tho they may call them something different.

11-14 is usually 'Scouts'

14-18 is usually Senior Scouts, Venture/ing Scouts or the like

18-25 is usually Rovers/Rover Scouts or the like

Very few do overlapping ages like the BSA does.

Venturing is the BSA's program for high school & college age youth.

Because their interests are wider then their younger peers, Venturing Crews will center around somekind of specialty. This may be a wide or as narrow as the crew decides. (but it should never been viewed as an exclusive specialty. You need to have a well rounded program with social and service elements as well)

the 5 main groups of specialties are:

* Outdoors

* Arts & Hobbies (which can include STEM- Science, Technology, Engineering, Math)

* Sports

* Religious Life (ie "youth groups" in churches and other religious bodies)

* Sea Scouts

YES, there is advancement, but its something each venturer chooses to do. The advancement is on one hand tougher (because we are dealing with older youth) and more flexible.

The mistake some make is thinking only in terms of outdoor crews, not realizing all the other kinds.

And people also forget that while Venturing is young, it has its roots in programs going back to the 1930s. The idea of specialized units started in the 50s and became a mainstay in the 70s.

We will know more as we get closer.

Most people are too focused on the NOAC next year, plus what the OA will be doing in 2013 as part of the National Scout Jamboree.

As we get into 2014, that is when we will hear of anything about OA's 100 in 2015. There WILL be a NOAC that year. Not certain if the location has been set.

We've had long discussions before about The Game of Life.

My own comments are such.

First off. TGOL is one of those activities that REALLY needs good people staffing it, otherwise it doesn't work. It requires people who are trained in facilitation. The BSA frankly doesn't do a good job with facilitation training.

I first experiences TGOL at the OA's NLS. It overall went well, but NLS works real hard on staff development. When I later staffed WB, I was really leery about the use of TGOL as I didn't think our staff was adequately prepared to do it RIGHT. It seems that WB had made changes to how the game was run and I didn't think it would work right. We had problems, but it was causes a much by certain problem participants as how the game was run.

My Fraternity uses TGOL in our conflict resolution training. However, as the various groups don't have a strong built-in identity like WB patrols, we don't have some of the intergroup conflict that can happen when its done in WB.

"In my neck of the woods, Conclave hosting rotates among the lodges, with the schedule set - by the section leadership - several years in advance. And all service projects pass through the service vice-chief. An adult member can certainly propose something for his or her WB ticket, but it should be signed off on by the youth in charge of that area and delegated to the interested adult. "

FWIW, this is true in 'my neck of the woods' as well. All the lodges in my section are strong and very well boy-run. Yes, we have many active adults in the lodges, but all ensure that the lodges are boy-run (tho sometimes we have to remind some of the other adults of this...)

"So if no one in our district runs ??ILST ??? then no youth in our district can sign up to go to NYLT... As far as I know no one in our district does this training.. "

Uh, troops should be running their own ILST (Introduction to Leadership Skills for Troops) on at least an annual basis. Its not designed to be run by the district. This is how troops have been running its predecessor course for years. They should be doing this as part of their annual program planning.

"There ain't much in WB that hasn't already been taught in Management 101 at any community college or corporate professional development seminar. I await the revelation of what makes the WB version of these games and lessons so special. "

That's as maybe.

But the thing you (and others) need to grasp.

MANY people have never taken such courses.

I have a masters degree. I've worked for a corporation for 15 years. I've NEVER taken any college course OR had to take a course at work that covers ANY dealing with management or leadership development. I'm not a manager, so I don't get management training. ALL my training in management/leadership has been done thru the various organizations I am a member of (BSA, APO, Toastmasters, etc).

For everyone who whines that WB covers the same stuff they got in some course in college or work, there are probably 10-20 who have NEVER taken such courses.

"So, the anticipated direction the Jamboree is going is a good thing, right?"

Well, it all depends on who you ask. As they say "your mileage may vary".

I LIKE how the design for the grounds and such will eliminate the need for vehicles and such and be easier to walk around. that will be nice. I was a bit shocked in 2010 by the 'county fair' atmosphere I saw as compared to previous years, with vendors all over the place and such. No longer having that will be a good thing, I think.

I'm not so much in favor of the visitors being restricted from most of the jamboree. But I agree that having them mobbing the place was a pain.

Now, due to the terrain and such, National is REALLY being hard on people being physically fit to handle the Jamboree. So a LOT of people who went in the past will not be able to staff it. This is pissing off a lot of people who seem to take an attitude that they have a RIGHT to be on Jamboree staff. I have my health issues. I personally think I can handle it (think my doctor would agree), tho I don't know if I would past muster. But that's ok, because I had already decided that 2010 was my last jamboree.

I like the fact that they did a 'package deal' for a little bit more that included the tents and such. I believe National is actually losing money on that. I AM disappointed by how few councils seemed to have lowered their costs, which they should have since they are no longer dealing with getting tents, cooking gear, etc.

"The long answer is that Christian religions often have 2 issues with the OA:

1. Its historic association with Freemasonry, due to LBP supporting it and Goodman being a freemason."

Who is "LBP"? Are you referring to Baden-Powell? If so, abbreviate him as B-P.

AFAIK, B-P never supported freemasonry. He was never a freemason. There have been some anti-masonic groups who have issues with scouting, most of them based on ignorance. Silliest was that Chile (the country) had some issues when scouting came there, as they are Catholic. Apparently some thought there was a masonic influence on scouting, what with the 3 degrees of freemasonry and the 3 ranks of scoutings (Tenderfoot, 2nd class, 1st class) and they thought B-P was a mason (he never was). I guess someone straightened them out.

From what I can figure, the secrecy of the masonry (and the OA) isn't the main issue with some christian groups. What IS an issue with them is the oaths of secrecy and loyalty that masons make that some christian groups feel is incompatible with (their version) of Christianity. As we have no such thing in the OA, such groups that have an issue with freemasonry don't have an issue with the OA.

Just to make it clear. It IS policy that parents and religious leaders may watch OA ceremonies if they have concerns. This is ONLY for parents & religious leaders. Not grandparents. Not aunts, uncles, little brothers & sisters, etc. And its intended to deal with concerns of what goes on, NOT because parents feel that need to be part of every aspect of their kids lives. Some on both sides of that 'discussion' don't get it. No parent will be barred from a ceremony. End of story.

Uh, AFAIK, there WILL be a Merit Badge midway. Not sure where this is coming from. I know from other sources that they are looking for staff for various merit badges. SOSSI (stamp group) is looking for twice as many staff for the Stamp Collecting Merit Badge as last time, and I know other merit badge groups are doing the same.

Technology Quest will be back.

Other then that, I pretty much agree with Oak Tree's list. I will say a few things.

* 'all included'. I like how the Jamboree fee will include tents and such without raising the fee. Now if we could only get Councils to stop making their overall fee so high. They really should have been brought down when National included a lot of stuff they were including (tents, equipment, etc)

* Visitors. Have mixed feels about this. But having visitors competing with the kids was a major pain.

"correct me if I am wrong, but Goodman was also a Mason upon which the OA was or may have been patterned."

A few things here.

While Goodman was a Mason, he joined AFTER the OA was established.

Any masonic influences in the OA did not come from Goodman, but from a third individual who was working with Goodman and Edson.

"The BSA insisting that it is a private organization helped remove it from Fort AP Hill - and rightly so."

Uh, first off the BSA *is* a private organization. What else can it be?? You seem to think that is strange or wrong.

Why would it being a private organization prevents it from using Ft. AP Hill? Nothing prevents private organizations from, say, renting out and using local parks and the like. Its the same thing here.

"The USG spent a lot of money on the National Jamboree which I think is wrong - for a private organization."

Why is it wrong?

The BSA actually spent a lot of money on the Ft AP Hill site. Was that wrong? Why would it be wrong for the USG to spend money on the Jamboree?? Most of the money they spent was justified as it served as value training. Many government bodies spend money and provide services to private organizations for the public good. Nothing wrong with that.

And you forget that for most people, "The Game of Life" refers to the Milton Bradley board game, NOT John Conway's computer simulation game.

I have never heard the game used in Wood Badge (which was picked up from NLS and taken from other sources) called "The Prisoner's Dilemma". AFAIK, that's NOT the name of the activity. "The Prisoner's Dilemma" is a reference to the underlying concept.

The game is know by MANY names. My Fraternity uses it in our conflict resolution training, and we just call it the 'red green' game. If you look on-line you'll see other uses of the game, and I've not found it called "The Prisoner's Dilemma".

You might want to check out my site, www.seniorscoutinghistory.org that gives full info on the Air Scout program.

The original Air Scout program (later the Air Explorer program) pretty much ended in 1965. Over that time, the program was an air force-influenced pre-flight program.

Frankly, it couldn't compete against CAP. And Aviation Explorers that replaced it became a more career oriented program, hence its placement as part of the over Explorer program within Learning for Life. Sorry, I don't see it comes back as a more traditional program.

BSA Uniforms are NOT 'off the rack' clothing items.

They are uniquely designed for the BSA, with BSA insignia on them. Hence, they are a little more costly then off the rack items.

This is basic economics.

"If they are worthy and nominated, they'll get the proper recognition. Now they'll get one award instead of two for the same service."

Maybe, maybe not. Most likely not.

Many Venturing leaders do a lot of great work and would probably get a VLA (whatever level), where they would be overlooked when it comes to giving out DAM and the Silver Critters.

So instead of getting something, they will get nothing.

"What are the uniform types? I hear there are three: dress blue, summer whites, and leadership tan. Is that correct? Their website doesn't include mention of a tan uniform. "

There are 6 uniforms: 3 for adults, 3 for youth. These are based on navy uniforms (adults wear uniforms similar to officers, youth similar to sailors). This goes back to the 1920s when Commander Thomas Keane headed Sea Scouts.

Adult uniforms: dress blues, summer white, and summer tan.

Youth uniforms: dress blues (blue crackerjacks), dress whites (white crackerjacks), and chambray blue work uniform

BTW, you SHOULD be wearing a CSP and US flag on the tan uniform. We should NOT be stripping things from it, as we look too much like a naval uniform. Not a good idea.

"Why would national merge it with Venturing and not incorporate it into modern Exploring, as they did with aviation fields?"

Wow, talk about behind the times.

Sea Scouts were put under Venturing when Venturing was formed after career-oriented Post were moved OUT of the BSA and over to Learning for Life. Explorers are NO LONGER part of the BSA. Sea Scouts ARE part of the BSA, so are part of Venturing.

"I have never seen this web site but it looks like its BSAs. I noticed a change in the venturing leadership award becoming a youth only award? Have you herd of this?"

sadly true.

The National Venturing Pres has posted to very places this new policy. they had, in fact, dropped the National and Regional VLA a couple of years ago, and so brought them back with a new Area VLA.

I think it stinks, and there was a 'discussion' about this on Facebook. Sadly, several youth just didn't get it. Some foolishly think there are other awards out there that Venturing adults can get. Right. I know of many dedicated Venturing adults who will NOT get a DAM, Silver Beaver/Antelope/Buffalo, but would get a VLA (at there level). Now they will get nothing, as I doubt with the absence of a VLA they will get these other awards.

What NJEaglemom.

Plus all pictures of uniforms show them tucked it as well.

this is how the military does it, with (I think) the only exception for women who are pregnant.

Zombie Survivor MB, for when we have the upcoming zombie apocalypse.

If they have time to attend meetings, they have time to attend training.

VLST is only 5 hours long. Its made up of 5 sessions. Its does have to be presented all at once. It could be presented in 5 parts over several weeks.

Try speaking with your training people in the district. Prehaps they can allow you or one of your assistants to present a session a week for your MCs.

"Is VLST required? No."

Actually, yes it is.

For the adults to be considered "basic trained", they MUST take this course, regardless of whatever other training they have.

Mandatory training for key unit leaders (advisors) and their associates is coming. This means that for units to get re-chartered, these leaders must complete training.

While these leaders may not need to take it RIGHT NOW, they DO need to take it. Claiming that its 'not required' is the wrong attitude. Have them take it.