emb021

"I would encourage boy scouts to go to Kodiak."

Well, the thing is that unlike TLT, NYLT, and NAYLE, ALL of the Venturing leadership training courses (VLSC, Kodiak, Kodiak-X) were designed to be program neutral from the getgo. When I went to the 2nd or 3rd Kodiak/Kodiak-X CDC, they spoke of presenting Kodiak to Boy Scouts, church youth groups, etc.

"Are we there yet?"

Not sure yet.

I keep hoping this will end.

Sadly, it seems that SOME don't get it that 'discouraging parents from attending' ==/== 'not allowing parents from attending'.

AFAIK, *NO ONE* said or advocated not allowing parents from attending. The rules say that parents can attend if they so choose. And NO ONE is arguing it doesn't.

But, the reason that peopld try to convience them not to by having a conversation or the like should not be seen as an issue or violation of this.

The only valid reason parents should have to attend is they have issues/concerns. This can be addressed by having a conversation with them, prehaps showing them the ritual. If its not enought, then NOTHING prevents them from attending.

Parents should NOT be attending because they think they should, thinking its the equivalent of attending their COH or the like (again, hence the conversation).

And, as has been noted, its JUST the parents. NOT the scouts assorted siblings, cousins, grandparents, aunts/uncles et al. This is NOT a family affair.

Actually, they ARE made from 1oz of silver, which is going for about $40 an ounce now.

I saw this nylon/wool blend shirt at 2009 NOAC. So its been around for awhile. National has always had a more dressy version of the uniform shirt, this is just the latest version, nothing more.

Most people aren't aware of the nylon/wool blend shirts. Typically the national types, along with some of the national oa youth, wear them because they look sharp.

Its seems like the training group has been using their "Training Updates" to note any upcoming revisions. Am not aware of any coming out from what they've noted, tho there are a few (ie: Venturing leader basic) which are long overdue for a revision...

"I hope this helps"

not if you get it wrong.

"The green loops are for the centennial uniform, the Oscar DeLa renta uniform is to be worn with the red loops"

No, you can wear the OD green loops on the Oscar DeLarente uniform. NOTHING from National says you have to wear the red on the ODL uniform.

"Blue are for Cub Scout" Cub scout leaders and webelos Scouts

OD Green/Red for Boy Scouts & Troop leaders.

Blaze Orange for Varsity Scouts & Varsity leaders.

Forest Green for Venture Scouts of Explorers (also Sea Scout is in BSA tan uniform)"

There are no such thing as "Venture Scouts" in the BSA. They are called Venturers. Also, Venturing crew adults wear the forest green loops as well.

Explorers are no longer part of the BSA. They do not wear the green uniform any more.

Sea Scout leaders do NOT wear BSA tan uniforms. We wear Navy-style tan uniforms (most of us wear Dickies). Sea Scout tan uniforms do NOT have epaulets.

"Silver for District or Council

Gold for Area, Region, or National"

that is correct.

"what does ARC and LNT stand for?"

ARC= American Red Cross

LNT= Leave No Trace

"Also, what are some other useful org's or groups that you've dealt with in regards to Scouting?"

Depends on what you are looking for.

For outdoor knowledge, look at groups like Leave No Trace, National Outdoor Leadership Skill, Wilderness Education Association, Wilderness Medicine Institute, Project Adventure, and a few others. Look for local groups that may exist in your region or state. (Florida Trail Association, Appalachian Mountain Club, local geocaching groups, etc)

Other groups that would be useful are groups like Toastmasters (help you with public speaking, and their program "Youth Leadership Program" can be presented to scouts/venturers up thru 17).

Too many scouters, IMO, aren't involved in other organizations, so are very weak in knowledge of how groups SHOULD work. I can say that being an officer in groups like my Fraternity, parliamentary group, Toastmasters clubs, professional society and others have taught me a lot of things about leadership and organizations that I really didn't learn as a scout leader and later a scouter.

Hope that helps.

Every so often we have a thread on bylaws in scout units. We just had another recently.

I happen to be a parliamentarian, so a very familiar with bylaws, having written them and help groups revise them.

Pretty much all groups need bylaws. If you are in a group without bylaws, basically, you're not a real group.

The thing is, unit committees don't need bylaws. This is because they are not a standalone group, and what is covered by bylaws is covered by BSA documents. (the chartered org is the group with bylaws) BSA as a National organization has bylaws, every council has bylaws. The BSA recommends crews and ships have bylaws, and that's in.

The biggest problem is that too often when people bring up the subject of bylaws in unit committees, it seems that what they want is not bylaws, but a policy/procedure document. Bylaws serve a specific purpose. I have to wonder if many scouters are part of organizations that have bylaws and have any experience with them. I'm a member of several organizations and ALL of them have bylaws (for the national group and for the local chapters I'm a member of). Bylaws document how a group is organized. It covers members (types, rights, etc), officers (duties, elected, removed, etc), meetings, committees and stuff like that. They DON'T deal with a lot of stuff about what you can and can't do and the like.

So please educate yourself on what bylaws are really about before you start pushing for bylaws in your unit committee.

""Scouting USA"; now there is a throwback! Who else remembers that from the past?"

I do!

"Seems to me that it was coined at a time when there was a possible merge with Girl Scouts sometime around 1980, give or take a few years."

Actually, they were talking with them around 1969/70 or so.

"I do not urinate in ponds, rivers, lakes or oceans and I expect all the fish, whales, ducks, gulls, moose, deer and geese to follow my lead."

And they better not be doing #2 either!!!

I expect them to do what we have to do, get up on dry land at least 200 yards from any source of water, and dig a cathole!!!

"Do you trim the excess fabric backing off of your award knots before you sew them on your uniform?"

YES.

In the past I didn't have to do this, but I've found that knots made over the last 5-10 years aren't trimmed too well. So I find I have to pull out my scissors and do some trimming before I sew them down.

As a parlamentarian, am very familiar with bylaws. Most organizations have them, and those large organizations that have local 'chapters', usually require them to have them and provide atleast templates to such groups to create them.

The BSA feels that unit committees don't need bylaws. This makes sense to a degree, as unit committees are not deliberative groups. They should not be making decisions, but supporting the troop. So speaking of quorums, voting, and the like don't quite work. All information regarding their operation (which would be the purpose of bylaws) is defined in other documents, such as the "Troop Committee Guidebook".

as to some of the other comments I saw here:

"The trick is that Robert's Rules does not actually apply to your committee or any other organization UNLESS you have bylaws that adopt that book as the parliamentary authority. So if you have no bylaws or can't find the bylaws, Robert's doesn't necessarily apply."

Bzzzt. Sorry, not quite so. The courts HAVE determined that organizations ARE subject to common parlimentary law. Robert's Rules of Order is just ONE enunciation of parliamentary procedure/law. So you ARE subject to the basics. While there are differences between various parliamentary authorities, they do follow a common set of basic concepts.

"The purpose of bylaws is for one person to "legally" ram their idea down someone else's throat."

That's a very cynical attitude.

The purpose of bylaws is to define how the organization is organized.

Organizations follow parliamentary procedure, which is about the rules to follow to bring forth ideas, discuss them and make a decision AS A GROUP.

"but back in the day we ALWAYS wore our neckerchiefs on top of our collars"

well, back in my day it was never a problem, as the youth shirts (we only wore short sleeve shirts around here) had no collars.

If you take a look at everything the BSA shows, the neckerchief is to be worn UNDER the collar.

"John, I have similar memories of my scout OA days...though my era was the '70s, there was a ratio, not sure if it was as limiting as yours, but the number of scouts/scouters inducted was still small."

I joined in the 80s. To my knowledge, the rule from day one until they changed it more recently, was that only half of the candidates could be placed on the ballot. Hence, only half the candidate could get elected in. this had the effect that boys had to think a little harder about who they wanted to vote in, rather then put down everyone.

"Regarding the discussion about the scouts liking/disliking Indian garb/ceremonies: I think this is a big "it depends." "

So. Being interested in Indian garb/ceremonies has never been the purpose of the OA. Not everyone who joins or is active is into that, and that's fine. Different people stay in the OA for different reasons. So long as it doesn't have a negative effect on the OA and its mission, so be it. I've heard of terms for some of the various subgroups in the OA: thread-heads (patch collectors), candle sniffers (ceremonialists), pencil pushers (rules and procedure types), feather freaks (indian lorists). Never hear a term for those just into doing the service. And some people can be in several of these.

I know for myself that the first 10 years or so in the OA, I had no interest in indian lore, and only later 'caught the bug'. But indian lore is in no way the sole reason I'm involved.

Venturing still uses the red/white numbers.

This is stated in the Insignia Guide.

In my council, its an annual WB Breakfast. Its held during the staff development weekend. There is a small fee (covers the cost and extra for the WB scholarship fund).

Its usually 'family style' serving.

We get updates on the recent WB courses, learn who the next course director is, recognize those WBers who passed away since the last event, etc.

We have a couple of awards to give out, too.

There is a beading ceremony, but its held afterwards at the camp. So you're not forced to attend or the like, but most people do. Keep in mind that where the beading ceremony is held is up to the recipient, and many want it done here.

"What do we refer to when we say "Scouting?" "

For me, when I say "scouting", I'm refering to the whole program/movement.

If I want to speak of a specific program within scouting (cub scouting, boy scouting, varsity scouting, sea scouting, Venturing, etc), I'll refer to that specific program.

scouting =/= boy scouting for me.

Ok, regarding the election of Explorers (and prior 'older boy programs') into the OA. I researched this several years ago as this topic keeps poping up.

OA elections for Explorers continued until 1991. The July Operations Update of the time indicated it was dropped. Sooo, any lodge still doing elections in Posts after that time was in violation of National rules.

In reading thru my collection of OA Handbooks, this is what it said:

1948 OAHB requirements: 14 years old, First Class or first Senior Scout rank (not sure if that was Apprentice, or Ordinary/Woodsman/Observer rank).

1959, 65, 70 OAHB: any Explorer, regardless of rank.

1975 OAHB: Only male Explorer, regardless of rank. (note, Explorers went co-ed in 1971. I assume this means the OA revamped this rule at that time, but don't have any OAHB to prove it).

Also, the OA is now part of Boy Scout division (prior, National OA Committee under Nat Camping Committee). I mention this because you have people claiming the OA was 'always' part of the Boy Scout Division. Not so!

1980-87 OAHB: Explorers must hold First Class rank, only male members of Post can vote. (so, only male Explorers can get in)

1989 OAHB: Explorers must hold First Class rank, but all Explorers vote.

Hope this helps.

"What the Insignia Guide does NOT explain is whether the person who wears 3 or 4 beads can continue to wear their "extra" (third and fourth) beads after the conclusion of the course that they are leading.

"I recall reading years ago, somewhere official, that the "extra" beads were to be worn ONLY while the person was actively serving on course staff; but I can't find any reference now that clearly directs one way or the other."

That information was never in the Insignia Guide.

AFAIK, it was in the WB staff materials. As I understand it, under the old WB, wearing of 3 & 4 beads was only for a period of time (1-2 years), and you had to do another course to extend that time. Not all councils (or individuals) followed that rule.

That rule has been dropped with 21CWB. I have the staff materials, and I don't recall any such rule.

I have several of his books. He is an interesting character, with connections to both the early BSA as well as Camp Fire Girls.

His article at Wikipedia is pretty good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Eastman

There is this article that covers his work with Camp Fire: http://www.alicemariebeard.com/campfire/ohiyesa.htm

Keep in mind that "Boy Scouts of America" refers to our organization, not the Boy Scout program. This can be confusing to some when they hear "Boy Scouts". Do we mean the program or the org?

So Boy Scouts shirt has the org name NOT the program. But at one time it said "Scouts BSA".

And at the begining, Cub Scouts' shirts said "Cubbing" and the like before going to "Boy Scouts of America".

I checked my info.

When the BSA rolled out the green shirt from 1985 to 1990, the strips said "Boy Scouts of America". You're only way of finding such a shirt would be eBay.

Just prior to the rollout of Venturing, the shirts said "Exploring BSA".

Again, I would ask is your camp staff registered as a Venturing Crews. As noted, many camps do that (mine does). So you may actually be part of a Venturing Crew without knowing it.

"Our scout camp uses the Venturing Shirt for staff positions."

Properly, your scout camp should only do that if they register all the staff as part of a venturing crew. Do they??

"However we are not Venturing Scouts"

Uh, no one is. There is no such thing as a "venturing scout". The correct term is "Venturer".

"my question is: is there a Green Venturing "Boy Scout of America" strip? "

Actually, yes. For a period of time, the shirt strip on the dark green shirt said "Boy Scouts of America".

I see no issue with wearing an old QU patch if a new one hasn't been worn (tho it is a bit embarrasing?).

As noted, its a unit award. If you are part of a unit when they earned it, wear it. If you joined a unit that didn't earn it, don't wear it. If you joined a unit that did earn if after that period, don't wear it.

And, as noted, you only wear one. There was a time with the older version of this award (old honor unit award) that multiple ones were allowed. This got out of hand (rows of 3-4 worn, double rows), and National said only one is worn. The larger size kind of makes it harder to wear more then one. Maybe that was on purpose.

This is also covered in a recent "Best Practicies" on the OA website regarding Registration Options:

http://www.oa-bsa.org/resources/lodge/bestpractices/registrationoptions.pdf