emb021

"Maybe we should be in touch with FSU chapter of Alpha Pi Omega and see if they can establish a special version of the Community Organization Award with a Garnet background in lieu of the navy blue."

Its Alpha Phi Omega.

And the COA knot is gold on purple, not navy blue. I know, as I wear one.

"SR540Beaver - It sounds like your lodge's Vigil Chief is a committee chairman with a nice title, not that there's anything wrong with that."

I'd have to agree. What you are calling a "Vigil Chief" or a "Vice Chief for Vigil" most lodges just call the Vigil Committee Chair. Sounds like title inflation.

"Just saw the new Venturing shirt on scoutstuff.org."

Not that new. It came out last spring. I first saw it at Jambo. They started selling out the old shirt, so I snagged a few, as I don't like the new shirt.

"PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!!!!! (caps for begging not screaming )"

I assume this is in response to my comment about scanning this book.

thing is, I can easily scan the smaller booklets and such that I have (and put on my site). But I really can't tackle the bigger books because I don't want to damage them in scanning them.

I was hoping the bookliberator would come out (bkrpr.org), but have heard of an upcoming "Ion BookSaver" (http://www.ionaudio.com/booksaver) that I hope will be reasonably priced. The BookLibertator was going to be around $300.

my hope is I could then scan stuff like the larger Sea Scout & Sea Explorer manuals, skippers manual, crew leader manual, Explorer Scout & Explorer Manuals, Adventuring for Senior scouts and the like. I think these books have a wealth of information that would benefit the current leader, in addition to the historical information they have.

I've never heard of such a position. All the lodges I know have a vigil committee, with an appointed chair (youth) and adult adviser. They do the tasks that Old_OX_Eagle83 outlined. Since they are really only active a couple of months out of the year, it seems a bit much to have a VC-Vigil.

"There was a crew leaders manual? I have never heard of it."

They were done back in the 40s. There were 2 editions.

"Where can someone find a copy?"

eBay or the various scout memoriabilia dealers. Don't pay more then $20 for one. they are nice and have a lot of resources. At some point I'd like to scan my and put it up on my site.

"a "Sea Scout Leaders' Manual" supposedly this is a manual for youth leaders"

My understanding its a manual for both youth and adult leaders, replacing the old Skipper and Crew Leader manuals, which they were working to update.

GBB earned his 5 beads many many years ago.

He had a logo that had the 5 beads plus the 2 green bars that he put on stuff.

I actually have no idea if BP worn more then 5 beads.

Basically:

Complete WB- 2 beads

WB staff/Assistant Course Director- 3 beads

WB Course Director- 4 beads

Deputy Gilwell Camp Chief/WB National Coordinator- 5 beads

Gilwell Camp Chief- 6 beads

however, in the UK, no one wears more then 2 beads. they stopped doing 3 & 4 beads.

Over the years I've heard the terms "youth led" and "youth run" used. Typically you will head that we (troops, OA, Venturing, etc) is to be "youth led", but not "youth run".

Ok. But what do those terms mean?

I think I have an idea, but thought others out there might have a better one (no more then a paragraph) of what the 2 terms mean (I have no idea if National has anything written on them).

Anyone want to take a go at it?

"1/ How skilled in Scout-Craft were you before you took the course? "

Pretty skilled.

I was a Boy Scout (Life for life), and went to Wood Badge in my early 20s.

"2/ What skills did you learn on /from the course "

11 skills of leadership

Dutch oven cooking and cardboard box cooking. Had never done this in my troop. (philmont was the first time I had ever seen a dutch oven). And seeing stuff like this at WB was neat. Other stuff was no big deal (map & compass, basic cooking, setting up tents, knots, etc)

"3/How much time was spent cooking meals and clearing up each day?"

In total, probably about 2 hours a day. Sometimes the cooking was part of the lessons.

"Since it appears that WB21C has become a de facto requirement in exercising leadership in today's BSA, what was it about the older Wood Badge that was deemed inadequate for exercising such leadership?"

Well, what about the original WB that made it inadequate such that we had to come out with a new version??

How is that little different then ANY training program that is replaced by a new one???

Our knowledge of leadership, what works, how it works is always being worked on. B-P never knew about concepts like situational leadership, tead development, servant leadership, etc. Its nothing about the old being 'bad', but that we have learned so much about what works & doesn't work.

Heck, in my Fraternity we are always looking at our leadership training program in the 10 years or so since we rolled it out. In many cases we are on the 3rd or 4th revision of the courses, where we have revamped the courses, adding and removing whole sections.

its little different with WB.

"The new Venturing Handbook *is* out (just not on Scoutstuff) - but we have had copies in at the scout shop in Apopka for a while. "

Uh, it is NOT a "new" Handbook.

Its a new printing, with 3-4 pages changed. Nothing more.

Two pages were updated with some text on YPT. This meant the Scout Oath was moved to a page with the Venturing Oath. And the page on Teen Leader Councils was re-writen to speak of Venturing Officers Associations (but not a very good re-write).

What people are looking for is a NEW EDITION. Ie, one that is heavily re-writen. This ain't it.

I can only say that AFAIK, there is no effort going on to do so.

"No Math & Science Bronze listed though ... "

Nope. No word on when this will roll out, along with the M&S Expert Award, nor a rumored Community Service Bronze.

"how old are all of you?"

Who are you speaking to?

Most of us here are adults. And many of us were involved as youth. I joined scouting as a cub, became a boy scout and stayed as an adult.

"so what if national made an award towards math and science?"

I think its a good idea. Others may not think so.

"im in the venturing program now and you know what?

its amazing. i get to see so much diversity in one meeting its amazing."

ok. I've been in Venturing since day one. Longer, really as I was in Exploring before it was rolled out.

"scouting was meant to bring people together."

No, it wasn't. Scouting was meant to help youth become better individuals. Part of how it does it is to bring people together. But don't confuse a method with the purpose.

"it wasnt supposed to matter if "nerds" were in it or not. and you should be ashamed of yourselfs for making fun of them cause you know what some of them are/ or will be your boss someday."

Who are you speaking to??

" i know national isnt all that innocent but seriously alot of you sound like conspersicy theroists."

Huh??

"i have 4 out of 5 or now 6 bronzes. i want all 6. im glad their expanding. some of you need to open your mind."

Again, who are you speaking to??

"oh and to awnser a q from before, sea scouting has its own thing now so idk whats going to happen to that bronze. i heard it was going away."

Not sure what you are talking about here. Sea Scouts are STILL part of Venturing. Don't be confused or listen to the nonsense out there that claims otherwise. The Sea Scout Bronze is NOT going away.

"I have always thought of bylaws as those things that aren't part of the Law and Oath."

Yes. I do get a little sick and tired of seeing people's response to bylaws with something like "we don't need them, we have the scout oath & law". Sorry, not the same.

Bylaws, as Beavah points out, defines how a organization IS organized. And its not just corporate entites that have them. Pretty much ALL organizations, big or small, do. Standard sections deal with membership, officers, meetings, committees, etc.

"More like operation procedures like meeting times, when dues are due, etc."

Maybe, maybe not. Bylaws aren't the only documents an organization has. There will also be standing rules, which might be called policies or procedures. Meeting times is actually something that SHOULDN'T be in your bylaws, but in your standing rules. Dues could go either way.

Keep in mind that Nationally we have a set of bylaws, and each council has a set. Venturing Crews, Sea Scout Ships and OA Lodges are encouraged to have them (tho lodge's are called "lodge rules"). Other scout units are not encouraged, but certainly not forbidden. Like others, I see where they could be useful, but understand how they can and are abused.

"But there are only a handful of medals that are authorized for uniform wear."

Uh, not quite true.

This is little different from the MANY MANY historical trail medals out there, most of which are approved by the BSA to be worn on the uniform. Occasionally you'll see these worn.

I see the Nation Trails awards little different.

Further, we have various contest medals (for the various cub scout contests, but we also had generic ones for Boy Scouts for several decades).

Sounds like a bunch of adult leaders who don't *quite* get the program.

Too many adults think their job is just sit in the back and wait for the kids to ask questions. Sorry, that won't happen.

While you don't want adults running the show (the other extreme), you don't want adults so layed back that the kids will do nothing, because that's what most kids will do. They need to step up and mentor these youth leaders and get some things going.

Have they run VLSC (or its replacement ILSC) in the Crew? If not, why not? If this is available in council, they need to make sure atleast the crew leadership is going.

But frankly, if the adults don't get it, its hard to turn this around.

How as BSA dropped the ball??

I've know about them for years, knew about the MOU and chatted with them at Jambo.

"Per BSa guidelines, you should not wear items you earned as a youth other than knots above the left pocket."

Not quite.

If they are medals you CAN wear them at formal occasions. Formal occasions can be blue/gold banquets, court of honors/bridge of honors, eagle court of honors, district/council banquets, etc.

You don't just wear medals at any old occasions (ie, regular meetings, roundtables, training events, committee meetings, etc).

A civic event would be an appropriate time to wear SOME of your medals (ie Eagle medal or the like) but not others (trail medals).

"I used to have one of those pewter pins and don't remember them being Venturing specific. I'm thinking it's the "adult" pin for he hat. The youth pin is the full FC emblem about 1" tall."

In the begining, there was the universal pin (tenderfoot emblem on a ring), plus the large FC emblem.

A few years ago, National came out with a pewter Venturing logo pin for the hat. I had suggested it in part because I encountered a few leaders who were very anal about the hat NOT being worn with the Venturing uniform, which I felt was incorrect.

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=GIFTS&c3=PINS&c4=&lv=3&item=18019

From the catalog: This pin can be worn on the Boy Scout campaign hat or expedition hat.

there is also a pewter Venturing pin that is designed to be worn on the Expedition hat. Pretty clear proof that Venturing people can wear it.

""They don't seem to think we are capable of planning anything, or executing said plan."

"Did it ever occur to you that the Adult Leaders may be correct? That you really are not capable?"

Engineer61, you don't seem to understand that a big part of the purpose of Scouting is to enable these youth to be capable of just this sort of thing.

In the last years of Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge, they incorporated a new catchphrase that seems to have been dropped since then. I found it interesting, and its too bad we don't hear it nowadays. Its TTTTLTL. Or T5L2. My home council made a small patch with those letters done as logs in 3 row.

Oh. What does it mean?

Teach Them

Trust Them

Let Them Led

Too often scout leaders do the first thing, but are unwilling to allow the 2nd & 3rd thing to occur.

"#1 If memory serves, WB required you to wear a "clean uniform" with no knots, oa flaps, por patches, etc. Just your council strip, 1, and patrol medallion. "

Used to. Not any more. When I went thru "Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge" in the 1980, this was so.

When they rolled out 21st Century WB, only the staff was required to do stripped uniforms, not the participants (so we wouldn't intemediate the participants. we wore participant neckers and not wb neckers).

A few years back when they did minor tweaks, they dropped even requiring the staff to wear a stripped uniform.

The idea of doing this was that everyone, participants and staff, were kind of on a 'level field'. No issues with some with lots of knots, others few or none, etc.

But I know of some people who get bent out of shape with wearing a 'striped uniform' (go figure). One guy on-line was upset that he wouldn't be allowed to wear his troop number on his uniform, thinking it was an insult to his troop not to be allowed to do so. I can be gung ho about unit numbers, but this was a bit much.

BP-

No one is disputing that there are people in scouting who are in it for themselves and not the youth. Yes, many of them gravitate to the upper eschelons of the organization.

I have had run ins with these types over the years.

However, wearing a lot of knots OR being involved at levels above the unit does NOT mean one is in it for themselves and not the youth.

Others pointed you to the seascout.org website for resources.

As to vessels.

I know of ships who have no vessels, making use of what they can. Some ships are 'scuba ships', so might not sail, but use powerboats of other adults to go diving.

I know of ships that use kayaks, canoes, small sail boats (sunfish and the like), larger hobie cats, larger sailing boats. I have heard of ships who own and maintain large, decommissioned vessels. Its all in what you have available.

Many ships will actually have 2 sponsors. One is their 'traditional' sponsor (community org or the like) who provides them a meeting space, etc. The second is a 501©3 org (that's the tax code for a not-for-profit charitable org) that owns their vessels so that their traditional sponsor doesn't need to take on that burden. Plus, as a NFP charitable group, they can take boat donations. They will then fixup and use the donated vessels OR sell them (after they've kept them for 2 years for tax reasons) OR perhaps donate them to another ship who needs them.

The above is something I first learned when I went to Seabadge. This is why I've said its very important that Sea Scout leaders (or would be leaders) get involved with other ships, so they can 'learn the ropes' of sea scouting.

To add to Beavah's comment.

The Venturing Leaders Manual speaks of bylaws and provides a bare bones (very bare bones) template. The Sea Scout Manual does the same for Ships. Further, the use of bylaws is ALSO mentioned in the Venturing Leader Specific Training. Not certain off the top of my head if the Sea Scout Leader training does the same.

Further, OA Lodges have bylaws, tho they call them "Lodge Rules". These are covered in the "Guidebook for Officers and Advisers".

As to Packs, Troops, Teams, NOTHING is said regarding bylaws. So one could assume they aren't needed. Never seen anything that forbids them, but certainly you don't see for them what is done for Crews/Ships.