eisely

The Philmont medical form also has the same information. The form is so long because it contains a lot of explanatory information for the health professional who is signing off on the form. It really puts a burden on health care professional, and that is appropriate. If you have an otherwise healthy person who is outside the limits for some reason, a more detailed explanatory note from your health care professional may be helpful.

How about having a couple of the boy leaders who are equally aware and disgusted sit down with the boy privately. American teenagers take peer suggestions and criticisms much more seriously than comments from adults. I suspect that Australian teenagers are not that much different. If he does not mend his ways soon, I see no alternative to not taking him. It is always a disappointment and frustration when a situation with a boy comes to this, but we cannot feel too guilty about occasional lack of success.

Off to Philmont for my second, and presumably last, trek there.

The point above is well taken. It may well be that some of our wives are still with BECAUSE of the time spent away instead of IN SPITE OF the time away. Getting back to the thread.... Apologies to Lech Walensa. If Vaclav Havel makes the list, Lech Walensa certainly makes the list.

jmcquillan is absolutely right. A troop is not a legal entity and therefore can own nothing. In some areas parents have set up non profit foundations and corporations to meet a variety of local needs and there is, in principle, no reason why something similar cannot be done here as suggested above. Every time I have heard of a unit that "owned" a piece of real estate, be it a camp or a scout shack, it turned out that there was some kind of separate legal entity that actually did the owning.

Here is another name. Vaclav Havel, president of the Czech Republic. He pulled off a bloodless revolution against the Russians and had the wisdom to let the Slovaks go their way and allow Czechoslovakia to be divided. Ataturk probably deserves mention. He was the founder of modern Turkey in the years following World War I, a country that has transcended its past in many ways.

The exchange about the suitability of the Kankakee River this coming weekend raises an important issue to which I and others have alluded. To wit, you need to know the current conditions of the river and need to have an alternative location or date if the river is unsafe. As a scout I foolishly went onto a River in Southeast Missouri in flood stage and we did not stay there very long. Fortunately I and my partner knew how to handle the canoe and had the strength to do what needed to be done. It was scary. The adults who allowed us to do this were frankly negligent, even though nobody got hurt. Having said all that, there are a variety of sources of information about local conditions. There are online sources although I don't recall how to access those. V2 may have some suggestions about this. You can also contact the local Army Corps of Engineers office, your local Coast Guard District, your outfitter, state agencies, and even local police agencies. It helps if you have a local contact who is knowledgeable.

This is a random extension from the thread on patriotism in the schools. As scouters we ought to be able to talk knowledgeably about leaders of the past and who should be considered exemplars for today's youth. Who do you think were the great leaders of the last century and why? Here are some candidates: Anwar Sadat who gave his life to make peace between Egypt and Israel. Winston Churchill who understood the threat of fascism and communism and was steadfast in his opposition to both. Pope John Paul II who probably did more to bring the Soviet empire to an end than any other person. Franklin Delano Roosevelt who inspired the people of the US when inspiration was lacking. Mother Theresa for her life of selflessness. Ghandi for his example of leading a country towards non violent change. Others?

It is perhaps unfair to refer to Jimmy Carter as a "bad" president since that suggests evil motives. His motives were, and remain, the highest, but he was one of the most ineffective presidents we ever had. I remember one comment he made during his 1976 campaign, to the effect that the people of the United States deserved a "government that was as good and loving as the people of the United States." A comment like this reflects an unreal understanding of human nature. People, Americans included, are not always good and loving, which is probably the most important reason that we need government at all. He is a good man, and has done good works since leaving the presidency. In contrast Gerald Ford has mostly collected director's fees for sitting on various corporate boards. Gerald Ford has done nothing illegal or even anything unethical, but Carter has set the higher example. Nevertheless Carter would do well to butt out of international affairs, which was never his strong suit.

As long as we are disclosing voting records, I voted for Jimmy Carter once. In the Illinois primary of 1976. I would certainly agree that Jimmy Carter is a far better ex president than he ever was a president. I saw a humorous piece of editorial opinion today concerning Carter's current visit to Cuba. "...he (Carter)(in contrast to Castro) is an enduring example of democracy's greatest blessings: the power of the people to vote a bad leader out of office." What was Reagan's percentage of the vote in 1980? Something like two thirds?

It seems to me that you are good to go. I don't know the conditions of the Delaware generally, and these could change by the time you plan to go. I would not worry too much about the scouts' canoeing abilities as long as they understand all the safety precautions. They will get the hang of paddling quickly enough. Everytime I have taken novice canoeists on the water with minimal or no training, they had the hang of it within an hour. It wasn't always elegant or efficient but they could control the canoes and get where they needed to go.

For those who may wish to learn more about canoe design and construction, visit www.oldtowncanoe.com This is the website for Oldtown Canoe Company, and they have a section on canoe characteristics and design. For those who would like more information about canoeable rivers visit www.canoe-camping.org This is a privately maintained website that has loads of highly detailed information on various rivers around the USA with lots of pictures. Excellent site.

I may be revealing something more about my age, but when I grew up "leave no trace" was something that thieves and murderers aspired to. Not quite as old as Daniel Boone though.

R7's points are all well taken. I too, as a parent, would take offense if someone questioned a particular discipline I was using. Scouters should not butt in to these matters, but what is the harm of giving advice if the parent asks your opinion?

Bob White's suggestion is sound. A good way to start is with baby steps. Incorporate a grace into group meals and Scout's own on Sundays. What better setting to recognize the existence and goodness of god than in the great outdoors during a trek or car camping event? I admit our troop doesn't do this regularly, and it is always something of shock when it happens. But if you get the boys, and their parents, into this frame of mind that certain things are done as a matter of course, the bigger hurdles will be easier to jump.

I read this exchange with some sense of irony. I was a scout years before the two deep rule, etc. etc. I led my patrol on numerous independent outings because our troop was so weak. We had a nominal scoutmaster, but we really were on our own. This is not to put down the newer rules. I think two deep, tour permits, wearing PFDs, etc are all good ideas. We created our own patrol program to fill a vacuum at the troop level.

jmcquillan has a point about not interfering in family matters, but the basic thrust of the thread is correct. We have rarely used "grounding" as a punishment for our boys. Rather we impose deprivation from the computer, the nintendo (now the xbox), or the tv. Grounding ends up punishing the parents as well as the boy. The real punishment ought to be a requirement that the boy go to all scouting functions whether he wants to go or not.

I got to thinking about the footwear advice and realize that I left something out. Why is footwear important? You load and unload the canoes while they are floating, to the extent possible. If you load a canoe while it is beached, not only are you stressing the canoe, but then you have to lift the canoe and all its contents to launch. Therefore you want footwear in which you can wade. Which brings me to the point I left out. The cheap rubber sandles, commonly referred to as "flip flops," that we wear to the beach or around the swimming pool, do not work for this purpose. When you are wading in the water carrying a load, backing up, and turning, you need something that is firmly attached to your heel as well as your toes. You can actually trip in this shallow water environment wearing flip flops. And it is spelled sandal, not sandle.

Hey Coffee Lady, Keep up the good work and don't let people intimidate you. Sounds like you are on the right track. OGE is right. Only the Chartered Organization can remove you. If you were doing something clearly against BSA policy, particularly where safety is concerned, the council could come down, but they would still work through the CO. I would suggest that you contact the parents of the boys in your troop and engage them in a discussion about the program to see if they have any concerns. If you are complying with the rules, and the boys and the parents support you, then you should go ahead and execute your program.

Continuing regarding equipment... People need different footwear for paddle sports. For a canoe expedition I recommend wearing Teva sandles or something similar. One needs to be able to wade while loading, launching, and landing the canoes. Rubber boots such as kayakers and scuba divers wear are an alternative. Personally I prefer sandles. If a scout cannot afford sandles, an old beat up pair of sneakers can be used. The main disadvantage to sneakers is that they bring a lot of water into the canoe with them. Everyone should bring some kind of device to kneel on. Some people wear sports knee pads. I prefer the small foam kneeling pads sold by gardening stores. If you have a large group you might be able to purchase a large piece of foam and cut kneeling pads for everybody. Buying the garden kneeling pads is a very expensive way to buy foam. Everybody should construct and have a bailer available while underway. In some highly regulated areas, bailers are required by the authorities. You can make a bailer out of a round gallon plastic jug such as cleaning agents and windshield washer fluid come in. You take a knife and cut the body at an angle, removing the bottom and ending up with something that looks like a scoop. Obviously you have to save the cap for the jug. Some twine should be used to secure this to a thwart in the canoe.

Thans for the compliments gang. Responding to LV's points about paddles. Everything he says is correct, but, unless people own their own paddles, you will have to use what is provided. In selecting a paddle, stand it on the ground in front of you. It should come to about your chin. I actually prefer mine to be a bit longer. Every outfitter I have seen provides the cheapest possible paddles. These have plastic blades and grips mounted on a frail aluminum piece of pipe. If this is what you are stuck with, consider carrying a little sandpaper to smooth off the grips. These are usually pretty beat up. I have yet to see blisters caused by these grips, but paddling with a rough grip is like hiking with a rock in your shoe. You should carry an extra paddle in each canoe. Coming back to the canoes themselves, I want to condemn in the strongest possible terms the heavy fiberglass canoes manufactured by Coleman. Coleman should stick to lanterns and stoves, that they do very well, and get out of the canoe business. Their weight reduces their load carrying capacity. This doesn't matter for paddling around the pond on a Sunday afternoon, but it is potentially dangerous for a long trip carrying a lot of gear. These canoes are easy to overload, reducing the freeboard, and the margin of safety when the going gets tough. Further, I got stuck with a newer Coleman recently in a group event. In the newer Colemans they are putting the flotation tanks under the seats, making proper kneeling impossible. Ugh. Don't use them. The only advantage to Coleman is the cost. That is why they are favored by some rental outfits. You really need to ask about the manufacture of the canoes. Be sure to carry duct tape. Great for patching canoes.

Only now got around to checking out this post. Quite a story. In a somewhat similar vein, there was a story in Scouter magazine several years ago about a man, a retired CalTrans worker who had been active in scouts for many years, who took on as a retirement project starting a troop in the Juvenile Hall (read jail) in the San Fernando Valley. A Rotary Club heard about him and helped with finances. This man singlehandedly turned around several lives at a time in his life when most people are sitting in their rocking chairs. Another example to inspire us all. This is how the world is saved ... one boy at a time.

Continuing to expound ... sorry, you got me started. One of the questions posed was how is a float trip different from backpacking? One of the big differences is finding your way. Unless you are canoeing across multiple connecting lakes, it is almost impossible to get lost. You are just going downstream. You still need a map, because you need to keep track of where you are. It is easy to miss your takeout point if you have not been there before or know of specific landmarks. Since nobody publishes plastic river maps useful for this purpose like a trail map, you will have to rely on USGS maps. I recommend you obtain maps of 1:100,000 scale. You really do not need the same level of detail as you might need in backpacking. You will have to special order these. If you go to a local map store, it may require some explanation to the clerks as to what you are looking for. I found the younger people at my local Rand McNally store completely ignorant of these maps and how to use the index. If you cannot get a watertight map case, use a ziplock bag. One further thought on fuel for campfires. If you need to carry your own firewood, the fake logs you buy in a store are an excellent option. If you use this type of firewood, put it into trash bags to keep it dry.

What a question! Why would anybody consider prohibiting a boy from being a den chief? As far as I know, there are no upper or lower age limitations for this. If the boy has been successful and wants to continue, he should continue, subject to concurrence of all the relevant adult leaders. One of my most enjoyable scout experiences as a youth was being a den chief. It really can be a lot of fun.

Mike, Sounds to me like you are doing everything right. Uniforms became an issue in our troop too, but now almost everybody wears their full uniform at all the right times. If this guy bails, that is his choice, not yours. Keep up the good work.