Eamonn

Seems to me to be a local issue which will be best dealt with by the guys at the local level. Ea.

I have never spent any time tracking the size or the ranking of Councils. Here in SW-PA.We do have a good many small Councils. These small Councils had a very hard time making ends meet when times were good. I'm not sure how they will do now that things are not so good. A very good pal of mine returned from staffing a WB in another Council. He was singing the praises of that Councils SE, who it seems was busy helping prepare the Council camp for summer by mowing the grass. When I talked with him about the camp, he told me that the camp is only open for three weeks and over the entire summer they only serve about 350 Scouts. Many of the camp staff are volunteers who don't get any pay for working at the camp. The pool and boating areas are only open when the staff are available, many of these guys work full time doing their real day jobs. The camp does boast that they have one of the lowest camp fees in the state. I know a few of these volunteer camp staff members. They are super nice guys, but they are not getting any younger and for some reason they are unable to recruit younger people to come along and help. I'm not sure what will happen when these guys are no longer around or able to do what they have been doing? I couldn't help but think that maybe the SE would serve the Council better by spending more time trying to work on membership than mowing the grass? Eamonn.

Not trying to hijack the thread. But.... I had a Grand-uncle Henry. I really didn't know him that well. He was old, I was young. He lived in Ireland and I lived in England. I do remember as I was growing up hearing about Henry. Some said how wealthy he was. Some said how mean he was. Some said he was a saint, some said he was a sinner. He was very religious. A life long confirmed bachelor He never drank alcohol. (Yes he was Irish!!) At that time Roman Catholics didn't eat meat on Fridays and I remember that Henry took it a step further by not eating meat on Wednesday's as well. Henry died when I was a young man. I was still living at home with my parents. I'm not sure how come? but I was sent by my family to represent them at the funeral. It was late October and I remember that it was cold and wet on the day of the funeral. The requiem mass was said in a small little church that was somehow connected to a small monastery in the middle of no where far from anywhere. I had never been in the chapel before. I was very surprised to see that Henry had spent so much of his money on the little church. The organ was a gift from Henry in memory of my Great Grandparents, there were pews in memory of other family members, a stained glass window also in memory of my Great Grandparents and another in memory of my Grand Uncle Patrick. Henry had left in his will all of his money to this church and the monks. After the services a group of us all went to a local pub for a few drinks. We were buying rounds. Every round that was bought included a drink for a little old man that no one seemed to know. After a few rounds I asked if anyone knew who this fellow was? No one did. I went up to this old fellow and asked him who he was? He informed me that he was my Grand Uncle Patrick! I was a little taken back and informed him that he couldn't be, as I'd just seen the big stained glass window with Saint Patrick chasing the snakes from Ireland in memory of Grand Uncle Patrick. He smiled at me and said "Wasn't it grand of old Henry to get me that grand window in memory of me and me not even dead yet!" It seems that Patrick had moved away from that part of Ireland many years before and him and Henry had never contacted each other. Henry was happy to spend his money on the little church. Some might say that he was trying to buy his way into Heaven? I have no idea why Henry choose to spend his money as he did. Talking with one of the monks I found out that he had attended Mass at the church every morning. We are all free to follow our heart and do what we think is best. The monks are happy with their little church. Henry may have been a sinner or a saint? Why he did what he did is now between him and his maker. I was happy to meet my Grand Uncle Patrick. He died a few years later. He had worked his entire life as a bartender, the family that owned the bar had adopted him and taken him in as a family member. When he died he left all his money to be spent on a first class wake. Eamonn.

My understanding of this is in most cases.The person (position) that did the "Hiring" is the person who should do the "Firing" While a SE can with good reason revoke the membership of a volunteer. The "Good reason" is normally something big. At the unit level, the COR can remove a volunteer, he or she would normally ensure that the IH is aware and updated. They would also inform the SE about what was going on and why. How this plays out in the "Real World" might depend how a lot of different things. Ea.

We have in the past talked about wearing or not wearing of knots and awards on uniforms. I don't want to rehash that discussion. Over the time I have been involved in Scouting on this side of the pond. I have received a lot of these. I think the count is something like 20. Many are Training Awards. Earning these wasn't rocket science. I do have both the District Award of Merit and the Silver Beaver. As we know anyone can nominate just about anyone for these awards. I have no idea who nominated me. I have sat on the committee that does the awarding. Some years very few people are nominated. Maybe? When this happens the committee does award these awards to someone who maybe might not have received the award had more people been nominated? This might be the reason I received the awards. I tend to think that maybe me being someone who people tend to remember played a big part? I have never been known for being a shrinking violet. I do tend to make a lot of noise, I do talk with an English accent and have very white hair. Having served as Council Training Chair, District Commish, District Chairman I think maybe people noticed me, remembered me and who knows some might even have thought I was doing my best to do a good job? While serving in them positions I did receive the Distinguished Commissioner Award and the District Key. I have been involved in International Scouting for a very long time and did apply for the International Scouter's Award. I had been involved in all sorts of Training for a long time, I was both pleased and honored to be asked to serve on Wood Badge staffs. I know I wasn't the first choice for Course Director when the opportunity came along, but again I was honored and pleased when asked to serve. None of this had anything to do with any donations I made to the Council or the BSA. I have donated a fair amount of money. I have made provisions in my will to leave some money to both the BSA and the Council I now serve. I'm sure that the SE at the time was informed that I had become a Founder's Circle member, but as far as I know very few if any of the volunteers in the council know or care. These volunteers are the people who sit on the awards committees. I have sat on several Silver Beaver Award selection committees, and to the best of my knowledge only one person has ever been awarded the Silver Beaver solely because of the amount of money he has donated. This person does donate $100,000 a year. It is the only Scouting award he has ever received and if donating $100,000 a year doesn't meet the "Services to youth" requirement? I'm not sure what might? No one is saying or suggesting that rules should be bent, broken or pushed aside. But just because someone doesn't donate time or work with youth doesn't mean that they be barred or prevented from getting the recognitions that are open to them. Bending or breaking rules is never a good thing. We do however need to be fair. Give people credit where credit is due. SE's and professionals do not have a vote when it comes to who is selected to receive awards given at the Council level. The volunteers make the selection. So if rules are being broken? Who is to blame? Eamonn.

Without wishing or intending to upset anyone. I find the term " Buying scouting" to be in very poor taste. What I choose to do with my hard earned cash is up to me. How I choose to spend or not spend it is also up to me. I have a lot of friends who because of what they do for a living are unable to volunteer their time as leaders. A few are a lot more comfortable than I am!! They support Scouting and the aims of Scouting by doing what they can. They donate their hard earned cash. I do wear my James E. West knot. I think it's on a couple of my uniform shirts. I have over the years given money to support Scouting. I think I have been blessed that I have enough money that I can afford to do so. I never, ever in a million years seen what I was doing as " Buying scouting" and to be very honest I am offended that anyone would think or say that I was. Since my wife became ill I have cut down a lot on the time I spent doing "Active Scouting". Where as at one time I somehow thought that missing a District Round Table meeting was in my book almost the same thing as missing Mass!! Now I rarely attend. I'm happy not to attend the dinner meetings and pay $50.00 for overcooked chicken. I think myself lucky not to have to drive a few hundred miles to attend a meeting that was as interesting as watching paint dry. I'm still frugal enough to think of all the money I'm saving on gas!! I don't see myself as being rich, I still see my self as working. I was happy to leave all that talk about class on the other side of the pond. I do thank the Good Lord that I have a job that I enjoy a lot and I like to think it's a job where maybe I'm doing some good. My commitment to Scouting and the youth we serve is just that. - My commitment! I'm doing what I think is best. I really try not to judge others by the amount of time they spend or don't spend. In part because I don't know what else is going on in their homes, families, jobs and also because it's none of my business. For anyone to look down their nose at what someone else is doing is just wrong. To in any way accuse someone who is donating what they can to Scouting of " Buying scouting" Is in my book the very same thing. How dare you!! Eamonn.

"What about the adult who winds up cleaning all of the tents because the youth can't be bothered " The duty roster called for John to clean the tents. When he fails to do what he should have done. John needs to face whatever the consequences are. This is very different than Mr. Scoutmaster spending half the Troop meeting telling everyone off for what one member failed to do. Of course it does require leadership skills. No one is saying that anyone should get away with doing what they are supposed to do. Ea.

Right now with all the talk about the rising cost of air travel; maybe this is not the time for this. But.. Back in 2001 I kinda, sorta was thinking about attending the World Jamboree in the UK. While I don't consider myself rich, I am fairly comfortable. I could if I had wanted to have paid for OJ and myself to attend the event. However much as I would liked to have gone, I just was unable to see myself spending the amount of money that was needed. I have at times managed to get a cheap flight and visited England for a long weekend. I have taken my entire family to England for two weeks, stayed at BP House for a week, rented a car and toured around for less than the cost of the Jamboree. I don't know if it's just me being cheap? But spending ten thousand dollars to send OJ and little old me seemed like a lot. Talking with some leaders from the UK, it seems that international Scouting is fast becoming a big part of the program that is offered to older youth in the UK. Back when I was a Leader in the UK we did leave England a fair amount to camp in other European countries. It now seems that service projects in and around Africa are the "Big Thing". Right now I'm thinking that I'm not going to attend the 2010 National Jamboree. In part because I have subscribed to a Jamboree Yahoo Group and the more I have read posted there, the more it has turned me off. I really haven't given much thought to Sweden in 2011. I do like Sweden, I was there in 1975 just before the Nordjamb Jamboree (I was an Assistant Scout Leader for one of the London Troops and we had home hospitality in Sweden). Much as I have talked about going back for a visit, I just never seemed to get around to it. Hopefully by 2011 OJ will be paying his own way to do what ever it is he wants to do!! I'm blessed in that I get way more vacation time than I can ever use. So if I do decide to go I think I'd make my own way and spend some time just touring around and not get involved with the BSA travel arrangements. International events do a lot to help Scouts aware that Scouting is an international youth organization and meeting and mixing with youth from other countries is a great experience for all the youth involved. I just wish that hitting the road wasn't so darn expensive. Eamonn.

" Without posted guidelines, people are left to their "best guess" which may or may not be best for everyone involved, even if it is intended to be." Again I come back to us as an organization doing our best to help our youth members make ethical choices. When we have posted guidelines in place what choice is there? Isn't it better that Scouts choose to do what is right rather than being told what is right? Eamonn.

Lisabob Poor old OJ,is in much the same boat as your nipper. Both of them being only children!! I'm not sure if there is such an animal as a "Expert Parent"? I do believe that many of us can if we try look back and remember what it was like when we were about the ages of the youth who make up the groups within the units we serve. We can look back with fond memories on the people who inspired us. We can also look back at the people who failed. We do have in place tools that do provide feedback. We can learn a lot from Reflections and sometimes by just overhearing what the youth are saying as we drive from place to place. Before the old Boy Scout WB course went bye-by, reflections were maybe a little bit over the top and maybe done a little too often? So much so that I know that they became a bit of a joke. Now we have in the new course "Feedback is a gift". Again some people are poking fun at this. But Feedback can be a gift, if we are willing to be open and honest. Sadly all to often the adults tend to get very defensive, close ranks and not see it as a gift. While many Scouter's do have a great love love for Scouting and the BSA. I at times do wonder if they even like the youth they are supposed to be serving? Along the same lines I sometimes wonder if they understand that things are not as they once were. Back when I was a Scout (A very long time back!!) I remember the "Old-time Scouter's" talking about how long hair, rock and roll and TV were going to be the end of Scouting as we they knew it. Today I hear the same tune only the words have changed. It is true that computers and the Internet have changed the way all of us spend our time and go about doing things. Kids are exposed to a lot of stuff that I know when I was their age I wasn't exposed too. Maybe it is harder to come up with a program that is attractive enough to drag Little Bobby away from Grand Theft Auto? Maybe Bobby's Mom feels uncomfortable when Little Bobby isn't safe and secure in his bedroom? But I still firmly believe that with trained adults who have good skills and lots of imagination we can come up with a great program that will entice Little Bobby out of his bedroom, while not upsetting his Mom too much. Eamonn.

"Seems to me the easiest way to control the situation." This might be very true? But.... As an organization that spends so much time on trying to get youth to make ethical choices, is the easiest way to control the situation the best way? Ea.

Gold Winger As a parent,it's OK for me to be Lord and Master (To the extent that Her Who Must Be Obeyed will allow!!) It's OK for me to have my own pet peeves, moans and groans. If the mood strikes me I can chew my kid's ear off. Telling him how lucky he is and going on about walking ten miles uphill to and from school. (You get my drift.) But the youth that join a Troop,Pack or Crew don't join to learn Eamonn's pet peeves. Of course there does have to be acceptable standards in many areas. But having visited a good many Troop meetings where Mr. Scoutmaster uses the time at the end of the meeting to bore the pants off the entire Troop just because one Lad may have messed up. I can see and do understand why a lot of youth members are in no rush to return. Heck!! A lot of times I can't wait to get the heck out of there!! This to me seems a very long way off from a program that is fun, adventurous and offering new challenges. If this is all we can offer? I feel sure OJ could have remained home and listened to me have my little rants. Eamonn.

Hi Stosh, Not sure if you noticed or not? But I posted: "My hope is that the BSA will take a look at what is happening in other Scouting organizations and Associations and see what is working and not working, with a view to maybe making a few changes." Just thought I'd mention it! Ea.

" When the right balance is discovered between youths interests of today with the essential core scouting skills and leadership we may see a significant increase in membership,..." I have to admit that trying to find this balance is something I have a hard time with. Talking only for myself. On one hand I like where we (Scouting) has been and where we come from. I still firmly believe that we need to keep a value based program. I still think a lot of the traditional activities still appeal to youth. (We do have to "Sell" the activities and present them in a way that is fun and does offer real challenges. - For example tying knots in the church basement is not seen as being fun, but learning knots that you are going to have to use to go sailing does take on a new meaning.) But on the other hand.. Talking with kids who are unhappy with Scouts and Scouting or who have quit. It does seem that we maybe spend too much time stressing the small and little stuff, enforcing and sometimes preaching? About rules and regulations that they either don't like and a lot of times fail to understand. I at times am not sure if we should adopt what I call the "Youth Club" mentality. A program where the youth are more free to just pop in or look in and pick and choose what activities they like or want to participate in. (Which in some ways a lot of older Scouts in a good many Troops do anyway!!) The hope here is of course that if what is offered is what they want they will be there anyway! The danger is of course that in a youth led program we do need the youth to be there to lead.A lot of the youth I know are either too busy? (Doing what?) Or just lazy little toads. We do run the risk of just having adults plan and run the activities, with anyone who finds that they are free or have no other plans just tagging along. Part of me does believe that deep down the BSA is aware that some real changes are needed but I believe that the fear of losing so many volunteers who are so deeply entrenched in the way things are and were prevents this from happening. - This is of course just my own opinion. My hope is that the BSA will take a look at what is happening in other Scouting organizations and Associations and see what is working and not working, with a view to maybe making a few changes. We however have what we have right now. It can and does work -If we make it work. Eamonn.

I have never seen or heard of such a thing. I'm 99.9% sure it's a load of bull. My understanding of the Activity Uniform, which is also called the Class B uniform is that the T-shirt should be some sort of a Scout shirt. Clothes at camp and in fact at all Scouting events should reflect the values of Scouting. Some t-shirts don't. Shirts that promote drug use, alcohol and that sort of thing are best left at home. Our school district has a similar policy. But a shirt with Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck? Come on!! What's the harm? Eamonn.

For a good many years I owned and operated a couple of fairly successful restaurants. As with a lot of restaurants I did depend on the sales of alcohol to make a living. Over the years many of the smaller home town food companies seemed to get pushed out by the bigger food companies. -Sysco, US Food Service and the like. These companies weren't just happy supplying the dry goods and canned goods, over time they grew and tried to replace all the suppliers. Meat, fresh vegetables -you name it. These companies never ever seemed to want to help with ant sort of sales promotions. That is no one from Sysco ever came and said "Hey Eamonn if you sell our coffee we are going to help you out by paying for promoting our coffee". On the other hand the big breweries seemed really worried about Market Share, they bent over to help come up with promotions for their products. As a small business owner I really didn't have vast amounts of money to spend on advertising. Most of the time I was forced to rely on word and mouth. To this end I did my best to buy the best possible product and hire the best staff. Of course this wasn't the cheapest way of doing things. Here in SW PA.There are still a lot of people who seem to be happy to go out and eat not so great food as long as it's cheap and the plate is over-flowing. I was happy not to even try to cater to these people. Translating this into a Scouting setting. National is in some ways like Sysco. They have a good product -The Scouting programs. Maybe we need the CO to be a little more like the breweries and take a more active role in promoting their youth groups. Still at the end of the day it becomes up to us to provide the best possible product (The program) to the end user, (The youth) We will do this best by ensuring we have the best staff (Fully trained volunteer leaders and committee members). There is always going to be people or groups of people who for whatever reason are not going to be happy with what we offer. We should all be so very busy doing what we do and doing it well that we ought not have time to worry about these people. -Leave the worrying to others. I know we seem to use the word Program a lot and at times we lose sight of what it means. To my way of thinking it's all about doing what we can to make every event and every meeting as good as it can be. Kids join Scouts for fun, adventure and new challenges. If after a meeting or event you know in your heart of hearts that these have not been delivered. - Something needs to be looked at and changed. I think we could double our membership within five years if we went out of our way to ensure that the program offered by every unit was full of fun, adventure and offered the youth new and exciting challenges. Eamonn.

"How do you know when to pull the plug? " A very hard call. Of course there have been Packs that have been near death and have managed to come back. However I would think when it becomes clear that the only way to get a charter renewed is by telling lies!! Is a very good sign. Packs are divided into Dens. Each Den should have registered Den Leader. Cub Scouting activities are age specific, so having all the Pack Members meet at the same time, same place and do the same activities week in and week out really is not an option. Tiger Cubs need an adult partner. Sad as it might be without this partner the Lad can't be Tiger Cub. All meetings require two deep leadership. The Pack needs a Cubmaster along with about 3 committee members and at least five Cub Scouts. Packs who don't have enough adults or enough Cub Scouts, will have a really hard time trying to provide any sort of a quality program and when this happens? Maybe this is when the plug should be pulled? Eamonn

Not in any real order. 1/ It takes more than one or two people to save a Pack. 2/ While we all like to "Save the day". Truth is without real interest from the CO and or the community, it is doomed to fail. 3/ DE's are more lightly than volunteers to flog a dead horse. 4/Most times Membership Chairs and Commissioners will tell it as it is. 5/ Sometimes it's better to forget about what was and look at it as if you are starting a new unit. 6/ There are steps to starting a new unit. They work if you follow them (Most times.) 7/A big part of doing anything in Scouting is knowing how it is done and why it is done that way. To this end training really does help. 8/The Cub Scout Leader Book should be required reading for anyone saving or starting a new unit. 9/ There is a difference between saving a unit and providing "Life Support". 10/Before you take on trying to save a unit, it's worth finding out why it needs saving? Eamonn.

Thanks! As I said;he had all the comforts of home. I'm not sure if there is a difference between staying in a tent and camping? He went as far as buying furniture from the local Good Will Store!! The tent was carpeted!! He had his laptop (Sadly no Internet in the tent!) His phone. His music. Electric lights and fans. Is this really camping? Ea.

SctDad With respect to you and every other forum member. This forum is at times a great resourse. But it is not really the best place for advise. I was going out of my way to as nice as possible. But the plain truth is. Games of chance are not allowed. Having a rule that deals with games of chance other than one that states that they are prohibited. Would be very silly and would go against the guidelines set by the BSA. SO DON'T DO IT !! My advise to you was to find someone in your Council who can help get you on the right road. The links I provided do show where the BSA stands on this and does offer some insight on how to go about making a Pack Budget. When I read that you are wearing so many hats, I can't help thinking that if any Pack needs the help and support from the District -The Pack you serve does. The Pack seems to have a lot more problems than just funds. Many forum members have had dealings with parents who are hard to deal with. We can all pick up tips from their experiences. Many forum members at times express their opinions about BSA Guidelines and rules that they see as being wrong or just plain daffy. Their opinion is just that.An opinion. Eamonn.

acco40 To be honest. I don't really care!! It was his MB. I wasn't the MBC. (And as I posted "I'm not a MBC for Camping MB.) I was kinda pondering the :"one could also camp for 20 consecutive days and nights and that would suffice too." What I believe is of no consequence! You posted the "one could also camp for 20 consecutive days and nights and that would suffice too." So what do you believe? Ea (Who now really have too much time on his hands!!)

I'm not a MBC for Camping MB. But I must have too much time on my hands? Our Camp Staff lives in tents while working at camp. Most are up at camp for something like 6 -8 weeks (36 - 48 Nights) When OJ was on staff his tent had all the comforts of home?? Would this count? (He did earn the camping MB without counting times spent on Staff) Eamonn.

Of course in Sea Scouts things are a little different. Apprentice Requirements do state: Describe the Sea Scout uniform and obtain one. Tell how and when the uniform is worn and how to care for it. Reference: See "Sea Scout Uniforms and Insignia" on page 105. http://www.seascout.org/about/program/advancement/apprentice.html Sometimes life is easy!! Ea.

shortridge The Awards and presentations are all covered at the Recognition Camp Fire on Friday night. It seems that everyone is busy and needs to get home ASAP. The camp is used by the Cub Scouts for Parent and Son weekends. These weekends have their own staff, who as a rule are setting up by a little after 10:00 AM. The phone at camp is placed in much the same spot as where the one in the camp you use is. We have in the past had very long threads about cell phones and electronic games! I'm not going to rehash all of it again. There seems to be no meeting of the minds. One of my pet peeves about Scout Camps is the number of soda-pop machines, that seem to spurt up all over the place. OK, I'll admit to not drinking the stuff. A couple of years back I was staffing a NCS weekend at Heritage Scout Reservation in PA. The Ranger? Was refilling the machine. Me being the friendly chap that I am thought he looked a little lonely, so I started a chat with him. Some how the conversation got around to me asking what the best selling soda-pop was? He informed me that Jolt outsold all the other types. It was food for thought! Eamonn.

Hi, Before you start making any bylaws, rules or the like. I would strongly suggest that you along with the Pack Management committee meet with your Unit Commissioner if there is one? If not grab a hold of the District Commissioner, District Finance Chair or even the DE. While you wait for someone to get back to you, you might want to visit the BSA web site. Take a look at: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34427.pdf Rule 4 clearly states why the selling of tickets is not to be done by the Pack. While you visit the site you could take a look at Planning Your "Ideal Year of Cub Scouting" Program Budget http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/resources/packbudget.aspx I'm sure that you would agree having a Pack bylaw which violates the rules of the BSA is not a very good idea and if someone found out that such a bylaw did chances are that it will only turn around and bite you on the tail. You posted that you are a ACM? If this is the case, your role is helping the CM provide the best pack meetings and Pack events possible leave the management of funds to the Pack Management Committee. -That's why they are there. Eamonn.