Eagledad

>>But you can reduce it by grouping scouts similar in age, ability, and experience.

>>This is not problem solving. It is understanding group dynamics and how to work with, coach, help a team (think patrol).

Hi All I would like to contribute and please understand that I am not suggesting any finality to this subject. I have a lot of knowledge and experience with the four stages of team development and in my humble opinion this situation doesnt fit under the model. It is missing two basic ingredients for the Team Development Model. Eamonn mentioned one, which is Goals. The other is the leader. Neither of which is in the forum format. There is another Leadership Training Lesson Ive seen at Management trainings which discusses the differences in Group Dynamics and Team Dynamics. The basic difference between the two is Team Dynamics has a leader and a goal. Group dynamics might stumble into either one, but usually doesnt have either one. And the members in the group dont see themselves as a team. Just the same interest. That blows away the first stage because there is no vision for anyone to achieve. Oh maybe one or two are looking to get something, but basically there is no one idea or goal to hold the group together. Without stage one, there is no reason for anyone to put up with the struggle and pain of stage two. Even more important from a leadership point of view, there is no leader to keep everyone on task or remind them of the team goal, which is critical in stage two. I do agree there were more new members, but the old timers drove the discussion dynamics. The new members just didnt like it and Im wondering if we old timers are just too proud to listen to them or ask the right questions. Another thing, while we continue this discussion, I think you can look through other discussion in other subjects along the same general time frame and see much of the same thing going on. Maybe its the weather. Interesting discussion. Have a great week and carry on. Barry

>>There is a chaos of volunteers on this board who each sy "here is how I do it, no here is how I do it. Each doing a different method often unrelated to scouting.

Well Hmmm. OK I miss stated. I should have said that boys between the age of 10 and 14 learn 80% or more of their behavior from who the watch. I work with psychologist and here is what they teach me. Between the ages 10 through 15, whoops I said 14. But between the ages of 10 to 15, we (we being all of us) learn 70% to 100%of our behavior from whom we watch. Yes, I know I said 80 to 90, but that is because Im told 80% is average. That is why how we behave has a direct bearing on how our youth will act in their future, even if it is to rebel against us. They are influenced more by whom they respect, but that is not always good because they could respect the class clown or a punk rocker. Do they still say punk? Want to have a little fun, next time you are at summer camp, pick a couple of troops and watch the adults compared to the scouts. I think you might be surprised by what you see. In fact, watch your own troop next campout. Look for the similarities. Its kind of fun. Not sure of your numbers, maybe that is how we learn in a class room type setting. Anyways, the say and do part you mentioned comes down the road though, 15 years or older. Which again is important because that is when we (we as in all of us) watch others less and start doing more on our own. The body change directs it (puberty), we start to look forward independently and less at our friends. I also observed this in scouting with leadership. I found that scouts didnt look at leadership as an act to lead or direct others in their early teens. They led mostly because it was thrust on them or they got some reward like advancement from it. But once they reach about 15, give or take a year, they shift gears and looked at leadership as a vehicle to project themselves in society, the troop in our case, either to test their abilities in the world, or to make change to the world. The troop being the world. This is why I love the BSA program. Its one of the few programs where a young adult has the opportunity to test their dreams and ideas, if we adults let them. Now for the troop guides, JASMs and Instructors suggestion. They are great for the program, they certainly are. But they are not enough to equal the growth scouts get from mixed age patrols. I have yet to see scouts in an aged based troop with maturity of scouts in a mixed age patrol Troop. Not that there isnt one out there, but So I stand by the comment. If a boy learns more by watching others, he needs to see others with higher skills than himself. In a mixed age patrol, the younger scouts are constantly surrounded by older experienced scouts who dont think twice about how they cook, what they cook or even when they cook. If the younger scouts dont have those role models, then they will have to get it from the teachings of Troop Guides, JASMs, Instructors, and usually adults. But remember, scouts learn by watching more than by listening to instruction, and those other guys dont live in the patrol, so the exposure is limited compared to mixed age patrols. Even in the best of troops, a scout in a age base patrol will not get half the exposure of skills and behavior that a scout in the mixed age patrol. So why did the BSA change to aged base patrols. Mostly to raise the number of Webelos crossing over into Troops, and lower the number of scouts leaving the troop in their first year. Those to areas accounted then, and still account now for the highest losses of scouts. Personally I think that BSA has been trying to fix problems caused by those changes ever since. Hope this helps. Barry

Oh for Pete sakes. Tradition is what you make it. There are no time limitations on them. How would a Patrol make their own traditions. My pack did the hanging up side down tradtion 20 yesrs before it was stopped. It just happened that hanging upsidedown caught on and spread pretty fast and the BSA had to put a stop to the danger. But just because the BSA says it is hazing? Well at one time the FAA said that only machines that simulate airplanes could be called simulators. That was a surprise for all those companies who built simulators that simulate everything from cars to hospital equipment. A good hazing test is to look into your heart. If you are seeking to humiliate that person, its hazing. Interesting story, a local Pack decided to start a new tradition so the scouts wouldn't be to upset taking away the hanging up side down ceremony. They made a Bobcat brand. The CM dipped the brand in white powder and branded each scout. Something to do with you are a new brand of scout or something like that. All was OK until an Animal Rights group found out and complained that it taught the scouts animal cruelty. Barry

Hello All You assume too much BW for knowing nothing about the situation. You pulled the trigger to fast. But I understand why you said it, I have lots of assumptions of your program as well from your writings. Im sure they are just as silly. Which is why I keep them to myself. As for the other questions, just because a scout acts as a patrol of one doesnt mean he doesnt work with or hang out with the other scouts. Was it good patrol method? No but that doesnt mean the scout, or other Scouts didnt learn a lot about patrol method from the experience. Sometimes you have to let ideas go to their end to grow from the results. The situation gave an opportunity for a positive impact and growth. The adults were well aware of the situation and monitored it to guide it to a positive conclusion. Barry

Hi All Hazing is to persecute or harass with meaningless, difficult, or humiliating tasks. In this context, singing is hazing because the humiliation is intended to harass the scout into changing his behavior. Hanging someone upside down is a tradition to uplift a scout by recognizing his advancement. No intention to harass, so there is no intention to humiliate the scout. It would only be hazing if the scout doesnt want to do it. Now its a dangerous practice and there by shouldnt be done. But calling it hazing only misuses and confuses the meaning of hazing. I have seen adults take this to the extreme and forbid singing Happy Birthday because they think that is hazing. Barry

Hi All >>Grouping by mixed ages and ranks is not part of the method either. The BSA program works if you follow the program. Patrols are a group of scouts of similar age, abilities, and interests.

Great stuff out there. A few other ideas that helped me was asked the parents to do a few activity badges. YOu would be surprised how much they enjoy this and some parents have great skills. Ask your DE to help you find some Scoutmasters who can help do a few activity badges as well. You can meet them at round table and they are usually glad to help because it can help their recruiting. Now you can spend more time organizing the meeting and less time on the activity badges. Try to get out a lot. I usually tried to let the activity badges give me ideas on different meeting locations. Like doing the activitys badge at a local school track. I tried to plan two activity badges per meeting (per month) so the meetings didn't get boring with the ideas the badges would take two or three meetings. I did 2 one and a half hour meetings a month becasuse I found that gave me more productive time than three one hour meetings. Leave at least 20 minutes for a action activity or game. Boys at this age love to run. Great Question Barry

Hi all I agree with BW 100%, but I think you will find that she is not violating any G2SS rules. Common sense maybe, but not G2SS. From the G2SS: "Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings." Barry

>>Our SM informed the PLC (3 scouts and 2 leaders tonite) that he felt there was a need to start a Venture Patrol and possibly get the older boys a little bit more involved and actually doing stuff at meetings.

Hi All >>It really gets formed about March, and functions until the summer high adventure activity.

>>But, after all is said and done, it is up to you and your troop committee in regards to how to handle the situation in regards to discipline or punishment.

Hi all We saw this coming several years ago and made two changes. First we got rid of patrol boxes and now all patrol equipment fits into a small milk crate. Then we bought a smaller lighter trailer that mini-vans can pull. I admit as the SM at the time, I wanted to be a backpacking troop anyways, so getting away from the patrol boxes fit right into my cleaver scheme. The second largest troop in our District (120 scouts) has a fleet of five small minivan size trailers. They just take as many as they need. My goal, which we never achieved, was for the patrols to pack everything in their backpacks and not use the trailer at all. I wanted each patrol leader to arrange transportation with patrol parents and meet the troop at the camp. Not very many adults felt the leadership skills gained from that experience out-weighed the advantage of the whole troop driving to camp together. My dad told me everyone in his troop just met at the church and hiked out of town. Have a great week. Barry

Another Beautiful Oklahoma Day all >>If he had seen that the food wasn't there he should have said something. Sure I learned a good lesson, but I think that the price was too high.

Hi All Wow, a lot of good responses. Some of us have been there and have a ragged old T-shirt to show for it. Several good replies but I feel Mike F said it best. You have reason to be concerned because in general, when a troop grows more than 40 percent, the program has to change to keep up. That is the scary part, now for the glass half full part. The sooner your adults get together on a game plan, the better off you will be at maintaining a quality boy run program. Dont get in the habit of talking about the worst; instead get it in your minds that as problems crop up, attack them. Come up with a game plan Now! Make sure everyone knows the goals of your program so that your solutions stay on track with those goals. Example is if you task more adults to help work with the new scouts, do it with the PLC and have SPL ask for their help with the idea that they will report to the SPL and the SM. That way the boy run part of the program doesnt get buried under the rush to fix program problems. Also understand that the PLC will in general try to run the same program as before. That is OK, but the little known secret of scout troops is they are generally a shadow of the adults goals and attitudes for the program. If the adults get lost, the PLC will follow. Get everyone thinking the same goals, even your PLC. It is rare for a Troop of more than 50 scouts to be as boy run as yours is now. Its simply a matter of how much can one scout (SPL) manage. But it can be done, I have that t-shirt also. Your leaders (both boy and adults) have to learn how to react to growing pains so that small problems dont grow into big ones. Get creative and try new ideas and attack the problems that are caused by the large influx. Be up front with the parents. You are in new territory and some patience is required. I like the suggestion to continue as you are. While you can't really do that, It's important that you don't react with big program changes. Plan several small changes and monitor how they work. Be careful that your changes don't start something that divides you troop more than it units it. 80% of what a scout learns comes from what he watches from the other scouts. If you take the new guys away from the more seasoned scouts, you retard their growth. There is an article posted on a web site that was written a few years ago. There might be something else in there that can help. Look for "Troop Size, Fact & Myths". http://www.daltonlp.com/scouts/ Finally, what I know that you probably havent figured out yet is this is a great character building experience for each person in your troop and for your program as a whole. I expect two years from now you will look back and realize how much your troop grew. Your older scouts will perform equal to adults and the younger guys will grow quickly. Your out door program will only get a lot better and your troop will be an example for others in your area. And, I think you will look back as I do and realize how much you love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I will go directly to the parents before taking it to the troop committee. I believe most parents would like to have a shot of handling the situation from home before it becomes a topic of discussion at next month's committee meeting.

Hi All Last night the topic of how the high gas prices are really biting into personal budges for troop travel. This will be a topic at the next committee meeting. Have your units felt the pressure as well? Are you doing anything to relieve the pain from gas, so to speak? Barry

Wow, that was really good. I think it's time to change your name from Twocubdad to boyrundad. Barry

Hi All >> it puts the SPL in an incredibly awkward situation. Now we have a young man placed before a committee of his elders, trying to defend his prerogative to run the troop his way, without being disrespectful (Now the parents whose children lost the SPL elections are beginning to question him more...)

Happy Friday All >>The SPL should NOT be asked to sit in the Committee meetings. This can quickly turn into an interrogation about "whose ideas these were." He is suddenly pressured by parents' ideas about things from all sides, too.

>>He was telling me that he has been explaining to the adults in his new troop that he gained his knowledge of how to do it right by watching it done so many times in my troop.

Hi All EagleKY. This is not really a PLC problem, it's a SM problem. I'm assuming you are the SM. The SM by design is the philosophical head of the program. While the committee supports the program, the program is basically the SM because the SM is the one adult in direct contact with the boys both physically and philosophically It's not that the committee or even the parents are wrong; they just havent been completely educated yet to the benefits of letting the boys run the program. Use these situations (struggles) to strengthen your understanding of the power of boy run. How you get through this situation will make you stronger as a boy run Scoutmaster. How you deal with it will also determine how the scouts and parents learn your role as the philosophical head of the program. Bob is right that you should listen to both sides. But I believe the compromise is teaching the adults how to give the scouts the fears and concerns of the committee and asking them to deal with them. Let the scouts find the solutions. With your guidance, the scouts will find the compromises if they are required. For the families who can't go, there will always be families who can't go on every activity for all sorts of reasons. Your program will grow to a time when nobody could possibly go on every activity. But at the same time, listen to the folks. If money is an issue, provide enough fundraisers so everyone has a chance. Start learning how to paint a vision of the future when you talk about your troop. Every time something like this comes up, you have an opportunity to explain that the more the scoutsget to work with, the more they will learn their limitations. Explain that its better to let the scouts figure out what they can and cant do because they learn that for life. IF the adults limit the scouts, then nobody knows just how much the scouts could have done. They are very creative, so them create. If an activity has to be changed, let them figure that out and how to do it. Just give them the facts and concerns of the adults then let them run that through their PLC machine and see what comes out at the other end. As for you, you will build strength and confidence as you learn to guide both the scouts and the adults. I learned that Scoutmastering is 50% scouts and 50% adults. This will not be your first challenge. If you are truly going boy run, you are going to run into those parents that want less boy run and more Eagle mill. Get ready, what are you going to say? Good luck with this. But remember it is just a natural growing pain of a boy run program. Sounds like youre a pretty good SM. Your scouts may not realize it yet, but they should be thankful for someone like you. They have a lot to look forward to in their future scouting. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Beautiful Oklahoma Day All From Eamonn >>Scouting is for Boy's. Our job as Scout Leaders is to provide a Scouting Program for the youth in the program. We are not out to save the world or the families of the Scouts>My perspective on the difference between a scout leader and a quality scout leader is the difference between a horse, and somebody who is dressed up like a horse. A quality leader takes time to learn the program, time to understand it's methods, aims, and mission.