Eagledad

Well said Acco

You have a great writing skills that make it easy to understand your point. I wasnt talking about extreme lamb killing examples. We have to keep a level of common sense in the discussion so we can get to our viewpoints. I have never heard of a situation where a scout was offended by another scouts religious difference. I not saying it hasnt happened, but to me that is such a small acception that we shouldnt react by restricting all scouting.

My reply on the food allergy is more of an example that it is no less respectful to offer several options than to restrict the options. That doesnt mean if a person is truly offended, the group shouldnt also respect that. But in most cases, I would go the way of less restrictions. Not just because that is the easier solution, (to me anyway), but because I think that is the character value I want the boys to practice when they approach all diverse situations.

Sometimes the respectful thing to do is allow the group to do what we personally dont like. I think it would be a bit much to ask a group of people to hide a crucifix because you have a personal problem with it. You can and maybe should explain your problem, but the crucifix is pretty much a symbol everywhere. For whatever reason, I hate to watch people spitting. Yet, spitting is normal in many situations, especially sports. As a soccer coach, I just sucked it up.

As for the prayer of the week, well even you said it is not a big issue, I find its not an issue to most people. I believe one learns more from it than going the other way. With that said, I would say that 98% of all the prayers heard in our troop is the Philmont Prayer. It all works out. If it doesnt then you can react and bring your adult wisdom into it.

My main point was I view holding the boys back from expressing their difference is more harmful than what our fears are trying to prevent. I found the boys work these things out fine, maybe they should guide the adults.

Now if they really want to kill a lamb, well maybe that should be held until a survival campout.

Barry

Thanks Trevorum, I cant remember where I got my numbers, but they dont really change the point. Most every law or policy, good or bad, is Judeo Christian driven.

Your examples Hunt are basically self-serving behaviors that have pushed the boundaries values for many hundreds of years. Man learns from his struggles and the pendulum swinging one way or the other because divine revelation keeps trying to pull it back to the center. Slavery comes to mind. Man's flaw is we have to see ourselves at our worst to become so disgusted that we turn away and change.

I have found that eternal truths dont collide as much as mans interpretation of the eternal truths. For example, the Christians are blamed for resisting the acceptance of homosexuality as normal behavior, yet much of their support comes from the Old Testament or Jewish books. And I understand the Korans readings on the subject is much stricter than the Old or New Testament. God is of one mind, but man has to learn the hard way.

Im not sure what we are debating really because what Ive stated is pretty much just facts, not opinion. Our laws and the laws of Western Europe are based from Judeo Christian principles or values. Atheists either accept those values or make up their own do to lack of any other resource.

Let me ask this, Merlyn_LeRoy pretty much admits he is out to kill the BSA because he wants revenge for its discrimination against atheist. What value in the scout law or oath would support that kind of action?

Barry

>>out of respect to people with differing (and especially minority) viewpoints>I also don't think it's enough to give the minority Scout his turn to offer a prayer invoking his own deity--you're still emphasizing his position as a minority

>>A person who feels that he or she cannot offer a nonsectarian prayer should probably decline to pray publicly in such a situation.

>>While religious people believe that their morality is based in divine revelation, different religions have different revelations and different moralities. (Plus most religions have changed their positions on various moral issues over the years.) So this argument is pretty hollow for BSA.>BSA doe NOT define "God" as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity known respectively as Yahweh, Jehovah, and Allah.

Hi all

Boy, everyone has given great wisdom in their replies.

Six month old, wow! I think it can be done, but Im with Semper, CM takes a lot of time to do the job right and can easily take the fun out of the job.

Committee Chair (CC)? I agree, if you dont have a good CC, your work will double because the title of Cub MASTER naturally pulls pack business matters to your phone.

Rewarding, I have to say it was a blast, but it took me a couple to really get it right.

How do you get parents involved? Keep the meetings fun and short. Anything longer than an hour is too long. My meetings of 80 scouts were usually about 50 minutes long when I got good at it. And everyone should be smiling or laughing all the time. If the boys start talking to each other, that part of the meeting is too boring and needs to change.

If you do it and manage to have fun with it, it will be a highlight of your life.

Have a great week.

Barry

Happy Monday All

I guess after all these years, I have lots of mommy stories. But as n adult growing up from what the scouts could teach me, I learned that moms are the same as dads, they only want the best for their sons. They just have a funny way of doing it. Moms are just different until they see the program work. For me, I used more experience to teach about boy run to improve my skills of explaining each part of the program and how it made their son better. I found that if I couldn't explain the value of a part of the program, I researched until I could, or I take that part out of the program.

One mom learn to trust and love the program so much that when she moved to another state, she made the SM of their new troop call me to learn the boy run program. It's hard to explain feelings of pride and humilty crashing together in that microsecond. Thank goodness the other SM was a really nice guy.

Buy I really wrote this reply to brag about a mommy that helped a lot of boys by touching my heart. She was the one who taught me how to do this scouting stuff. She changed my life I guess. I'm one of those adults that you can still find the heal marks where they dragged me into this program. Through a slight of hand, I becaame the CM of broken Cub Pack of 90 scouts, eight new adult leaders, and one experienced leadere. Debbie, the experienced leader was a Webelos Leader with lots of years of wisdom she had gained through many years of Girls Scouts and Boy Scouts. She showed me how to keep the program focused on the boys, to make sure that character counts and that little boys aren't really boys, but men without experience. I can't even imagine how things would have been different had she not given me that push start.

I was blessed by that mommy.

Barry

>>No, it requires THE GOVERNMENT to accept everybody. Public schools are agents of the government. >Would you prefer giving public schools the authority to create, say, whites-only football teams (even though non-whites are also taxed to pay for the school)? Refuse admission to Jews (even though Jews are also taxed to pay for the school)?

>>And if you don't think anyone has ever suggested that certain races or creeds are better at things like chess or science, you need to get out more.>This isn't restricting freedom of choice, it's insuring that government agencies like public schools don't unlawfully discriminate.

>>And since Fischer successfully argued in court that his clubs can discriminate, the only legal recourse is to have all public schools stop their Fischer club franchises.

Hi All

>>And therein lies the lesson. The proper time to rise depends on whatever is needed for that day.

>>then head to the head....

>>Barry's most recent post says it better than I can, but basically those with religion--even differing religions--can find common ground where the one without it doesn't share that. Barry, if I've got you wrong, please correct me.

Hi KS

If I appeared to sound that my way is the only way, I humbly apologize to you and everyone else. As much as I try to improve, I just cant seem to type what I want to say.

I didnt see this as a "agree to disagree" kind of discussion, but instead several Master Scouters expressing their method of scouting. You have proven yourself as a wonderful scouter on this forum a long time ago.

Between you, Semper, Beav, EagleInKy, Mark and a couple others, there have been some really good ideals being passed around here lately.

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

>>but eagledad's open bigotry kind of got to me.

>>I do believe in the values of Scouting. I do not believe that those values include religious discrimination

Hi all

>>I don't see what's gained by doing that, though...it seems like one of several techniques that gives the same result in the end.

>>I wouldn't be coy about this.

>>Today, I would rather work with a group with a shared vision than work on any project where I stand alone with those that only hang on.

Hi all

Without having to repeat everything you said EagleInKy, you write with a lot of wisdom.

Our troop allowed and encouraged scouts to take turns to pray, preach and teach their personal faith. We did this because we feel a growth comes from learning about each others faith, not ignoring them. But while this policy was encouraged, the scouts were usually happy with Troop Chaplin selected at the election.

We adults have to work hard to resist putting restrictions on these boys to protect them from our fears, or to encourage them toward our selfish desires.

Barry

>>She needed to be tolerant of our point of view. In my mind, when it became time for her to be tolerant of our beliefs, she could not be.

Hi all

>>For pete's sake, if you think some counselor's cutting corners, stop assigning them to your Scouts. Enough with the unnecessary rules.

Boy do I know how you feel. Is this causing any kind of a problem for the boys? Some hills just aren't worth dieing on.

By the way, what does he say when the CC hands out a free Committee Member patch to all her adults? (wink)(wink)

Barry

>>Isnt this just a watered down version of everyones wins?

>>I told the SM to simply open another room in the meeting place, and shuffle them into it, period.