DYB-Mike

A double Amen to Codger and SMT224 great posts.

Both my sons have had some minor run-ins with bullies. My older son has had problems with a boy who ironically was once his best friend (sometimes irony aint so cool Studentscout).

I have told them to deal with bullies with non-violent methods first. Sometimes if a bully doesnt get a rise out of you theyll go away. Ultimately, if that doesnt work and they are getting no support from the school faculty, they need to defend themselves physically. While I dont condone violence and try to avoid it at all costs, there may come a time where thats the only option. I promised my sons that, as long as they honestly used physical means as the very last resort, their mother and I would support them when the incident went before the school officials. It might mean a suspension, but I would intend it to send a message to the school that if kids have to resort to physical defense to get a bully off their back then the schools need to take a hard look at their policies.

As you might note I come from the neck of the woods where that poor girl committed suicide. My wife and I, as well as other parents we know, were never happy with the so-called anti-bullying policies that were in effect at our schools. My wife told me about some bizarre initiative where the bullies would get to have lunch with the principal and got to invite a friend! What that was supposed to accomplish we never did quite understand. It seemed more like a reward for bad behavior!

Our state legislature is now taking a hard look at the issue. This has been going on for a while, but that poor girls death has naturally turned up the heat. Its a shame that it takes a tragedy to get things done.

I realize that there are often underlying issues with kids who are bullies and Im not against trying to help them with their problems but no way at the expense of the victims. To not let bullies experience that there are consequences to anti-social behavior is not doing them any service.

I know my advice to my sons is not very scouty, nor is it quite in line with my faith, but I honestly feel that there are times when there is no other way.

By the way, my sons ex-friend also was bullying another boy. After putting up with it for a while the other boy turned around one day and slugged the bully. Both got suspended, but I believe the bully is no longer bothering the slugger.

YIS

Mike

If the boy doesn't like physical contact and male competition

Are we talking about football or Scouts?

YIS

Mike

Pack212Scouter, I had read those definitions earlier.

In my humble opinion I think trying to define these different types of overnight outings is part of the problem. Essentially they are all the same: a pack plans an overnight stay, leaders and parents are recruited, sleeping arrangements are made, other arrangements (food, activities) are decided upon (or come with the venue), and everyone has fun.

I would suggest just simply calling that section something like Overnight Events and list the requirements (tour permits, BALOO trained leader, sleeping arrangements, permission slips, etc.) under that.

YIS

Mike

Scoutfish, I admit that personally Im not up totally up to speed with the Webelos calendar. Our Webelos den leaders are handling that.

We did have a boy who joined as a Webelos late, but he worked hard and did earn his Webelos badge and now he is working on Arrow of Light. I believe he is on track to earn it before our Cross Over in May.

Ultimately Im inclined to give a boy as much time as I can to earn rank with a clear conscience. I had one den leader approach me about an active boy whom he wanted to award the Summertime Activity Award, but the boy did not honestly earn it and I would not allow it as Cubmaster. Fortunately it did not become an issue.

YIS

Mike

My two man MSR Hubba Hubba does fit two men been there done that, but to experience luxurious accommodations its a one man. I figure for every man a tent says it sleeps subtract one if you really want optimal sleeping accommodations.

I think that if a boy is with his parent then no matter what the sleeping arrangements are youre covered. Im would think any parent should be mindful of his/her sons interaction with other boys or adults with regards to changing and sleeping arrangements. If something happened and a parent was present I find it hard to believe the onus could fall on the pack leadership. I guess this is to say that if you have boys who are parentless then you must sleep them with other scouts alone. I would carry a couple of two or three man tents along with those large pavilions just in case.

This takes me back to posts about male/female communal sleeping arrangements. Our Pack has slept over on the battleship USS Massachusetts with sleeping arrangements similar to what the sailors experienced. We have also experienced communal sleeping arrangements at several other venues. The extra protection is that you also have a lot of other eyes watching, which is a good thing.

YIS

Mike

Infoscouter,

Yes, I have the Cub Scout Cycle in my Cub Scout Leader Book (page 34-9).

So where do you think the extra month or two (page 18-3) would fall?

YIS

Mike

My Council has agreed with my thoughts (still waiting for National's response) . . . The Scout (a Wolf) cannot go parentless because of "Family Camping" part of the GTSS (as posted by Scoutfish), I guess taking the view that a parent must actually be there to be responsible for the supervision of their a child [but, this should be "clearer," so the other family member is not a baby brother!].

Now Im completely confused.

My understanding of how the situation worked was the same as what ScoutNut and NE-IV-88-Beaver wrote.

I went to the GTSS and found, a few sections down from Family Camping, the section on Pack Overnighters, which contains the statement n most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult. This seems to fit with what ScoutNut and NE-IV-88-Beaver wrote.

So is a Pack Overnighter not the same as Family Camping, even though the Pack will be camping overnight? I know this may sound silly but the more I read the Family Camping section the more it didnt even sound like a pack event.

Boys want to camp that is the prime outing of Scouting. Why are there so many roadblocks to this? I know folks are going to respond liability, but it just seems so much more complicated than it needs to be. Two-deep leadership, adequate ratio of leaders to boys, proper sleeping arrangements (scouts only sleep with parents or other scouts), and written parental approval for the event should be all thats required.

Dont get me started on the Wolf and Bear den camping prohibition!

YIS

Mike

So, is it the scouting that does the harm, or the parents who don't understand the program?

I dont think the parents understanding of the program enters into the equation. A former Eagle Scout and Wood Badge trained scoutmaster could be just as guilty as parents who dont have a clue about the Scouting program (although I would hope not). The issue is making a boy do something he really doesnt have any interest in, no matter what the parents motivation is. The same could be said for sports or a musical instrument.

Sometimes I feel guilty of pushing. Every so often I ask my scout son (almost 13) if he still wants to continue with Scouts and he answers yes. I sometimes wonder if he says this just to make me happy, but then he comes in excited about something scout-related so I guess he is sincere. He says he wants to earn Eagle. So while he appears to be interested in Scouting, his attitude sometimes causes me to make sure I question him on his progress. Im happy to say he generally gets things done on his own initiative as it should be.

My scout son also plays the saxophone. He says he enjoys it and his teachers say he has talent, but my wife and I are forever reminding him to practice. School work often requires many reminders (or is it pushes?) as well. We make an effort to leave him to his own devices, but occasionally chance questions (turning over the rock) lead to discoveries of work that is undone and due tomorrow. In the end, my wife and I are left agonizing over whether were pushing scout son too hard or just helping to make sure a lackadaisical almost-teen gets things done.

From a Cub perspective there are times I wish a parent would keep pushing. Ive had examples of where the parents have told me that their boys had to be dragged to the meetings, but once there they had a blast. Eventually there reaches a point when these parents get tired of pushing or use juniors reluctance as an easy out to having to schlep to a meeting. Of course Ive seen the other side of the coin: boys excited to join but dont because the parents couldnt be bothered or are afraid of the commitment.

YIS

Mike

Nolesrule, I assume you mean by putting the emphasis on the word Jamboree?

To me thats still not a good argument. The Jamboree is an activity. Boys earn money in their troop accounts for summer camp. If they cant attend summer camp is the money taken away? Its my understanding scout accounts accompany a boy if he transfers from troop A to troop B. Should the funds remain with troop A simply because the scout earned it there?

That being said, I can see Twocubdads point about how the money was earned. Funds from popcorn sales and the like where the scout is directly responsible for the sales should most definitely accrue to the scout. With patrol or troop communal efforts, where it is hard to tie individual effort to dollars earned, it is much easier to understand just leaving it with the patrol or troop. If it could be said, however, that the effort earned $100+ per scout participating, and the dropped-out scout participated, then that might be a different story.

The money is earned under the aegis of the Council. Whats wrong with Council setting aside the money for the benefit of the scout for a Council activity or use at the Council trading post? The Council, by way of the fee, has already fulfilled its obligations to the Jamboree itself. The earnings are purely additional funds that would have gone with the boy anyway had he attended the Jamboree. The Council will eventually get the money and the scout has some additional resources to draw on in the future its a win-win.

Again, what I have state above assumes that the Council is not left holding the bag on the fee for the scout that is due the Jamboree. In that case the scout needs to understand that the Council must square accounts with the Jamboree.

YIS

Mike

My son is going to the Jamboree and, like dg98adams, its pretty much financed through the Bank of Dad (I like that). My boy has also done very little Jamboree-specific fund raising.

The Jamboree fundraising literature encourages the scouts to participate in the fundraising so that THEY can EARN money to help finance THEIR Jamboree participation cost or so that THEY can have pocket money at the Jamboree (caps for emphasis). Those boys were enterprising enough to go out and earn that money. If something comes up and they have to drop out I think the fundraising money should be redirected to a scout account, perhaps for them to use for Council summer camp. Council would not have had this money anyway if the boy attended the Jamboree.

The only exception I could see is in the event that the scouts forfeit whatever participation fee they paid, and also forfeit the fundraising earnings up to the total amount of the participation fee if the fee was not paid in full, if no one could be found to take their place. If the space was filled, however, both the fee and the earnings should go back to the scout.

I have not checked to see how my Council handles this situation. I know theres a waiting list of scouts who want to attend so I dont think forfeiture would be an issue.

YIS

Mike

Studentscout, why would it make your day if it turned out that Codger was a teenager?

YIS

Mike

Twocubdad, is the frame glass covered and does the glass push up against the patches to help hold them in place?

Ive used double-sided archival tape or a hinge of single sided archival tape, as well as a hinge of good old masking tape. Either shouldnt do any damage.

Another thought is the stamp hinge that collectors use to mount postage stamps. These also shouldnt do any harm to the patches.

The reason I asked about the glass is Im not sure how these suggestions would work for the long haul if just the tape or hinges were the only thing supporting the patches. The glass would help keep things in place. If it were a tight enough fit and depending on how the frame went together you might not even need the tape or hinges.

YIS

Mike

Greetings Scouters,

A poster on the Forum has written on a couple of occasions that June 1st is the deadline for Cub Scout rank advancement. I have not seen guidance that states this.

I have suggested to the Pack that, should the situation arise, we would give the scout until August 31st to earn his rank. If it were not completed by September 1st the scout would then simply begin to work on the next rank he would be eligible for. I had brought this point up at a training session and did not get any opposition. The Cub Scout Leader Book states that if necessary, allow the boy an extra month or two to earn the badge, but does not state what time frame that extra month or two would fall into.

The only exception I can see, at least in our Pack anyway, is for Arrow of Light. Our boys cross over in late May and since by that time they will either be aging out of Cub Scouts and/or completing the 5th grade and going right into the troop there would be no additional time to earn it.

This may be an issue for me as I have had a boy join my Wolf Den in February and he may need some extra time to earn the rank.

How do others feel about this? Have I missed some specific guidance on this matter?

YIS

Mike

Like BrentAllens Pack, we collect dues in September (and chase a few folks for several months thereafter) which include covering the recharter fee and Boys Life. As new boys are added their parents pay the dues (which include the fees), we submit the application with the registration payment to Council, and the boy gets his membership card.

As for changing positions, we just do it through the recharter process. When I went from Assistant Cubmaster to Cubmaster I just changed my position on the Charter at recharter time no problem. The CO, Committee, Den Leaders, parents, and scouts knew I was the Cubmaster, which was really the important thing.

While your post raises an interesting point, personally I dont think its that big a deal in the scheme of things as long as your pack is fiscally prepared for it.

YIS

Mike

Scoutfish, I had mentioned in other posts that our Pack had created a Parents Handbook.

It covers programmatic items such as the Aims of Cub Scouting, ranks, belt loops, activity pins, the uniform, badge placement, and so forth.

It also covers Pack-specific topics such as leader contact information, web address (which has many useful links for further information), general Pack Meeting times and location (parents are instructed to look to their boys Den Leader for Den Meeting times and locations), dues, annual activities such as the Pinewood Derby and Blue and Gold, and other activities we have done so parents know what to expect. There is also a section on parental responsibilities (shall I say obligations) to the scout and the Pack.

We added some instruction based on experience. For example, there is a section on how payment for special activities works and clearly states that if a parent signs up a scout for an activity they are responsible for payment if the scout drops out at the time of the event and the Pack cant get a refund. We nearly got stuck for a couple of hundred dollars in one case, but fortunately worked it out.

Another section concerns leaving the Pack. We ask that if a boy drops out the parents give us the courtesy of notice and the reason why. Weve had many cases where boys disappear and we cant get a hold of the family to find out why.

As an aside, the Handbook was one of my Wood Badge ticket items. This goes to my (and others) point about having some experience under your belt before taking Wood Badge in order to identify the needs of your unit and formulate ideas to address those needs and (hopefully) make things better.

As it was pointed out, producing such a Handbook would be the responsibility of the Pack Committee. It would be impossible to produce a document to cover all potential situations. The best solution would be to document clear lines of communication within the Pack, point out who is responsible for what, and provide links to sources where certain topics are discussed in more detail. Encouraging parents to take training is an excellent suggestion, unfortunately for us were still struggling with trying to get parents to volunteer for leader and Committee positions and to get them to come to the Committee Meetings.

YIS,

Mike

Scoutfish,

I had recommended to you in another thread that having a few years as an active leader under you belt would make the Wood Badge experience more beneficial to you.

While the training is touted as useful outside of Scouting, and that is true, ultimately the goal is to make you a better Scout leader and if you dont have a good idea of the essentials the next Level will not be as meaningful.

For me throughout the training, as topics were discussed my thoughts went back to how they applied to my Pack and my place in it. I called upon examples that I had experienced, which is another way of saying that some leadership history and experience are important.

When one works on the ticket that history and experience become more important. What is your role in the unit? What have you encountered that could be made better? Do you see things that havent even been considered? How would you accomplish these things? Does your position allow you to accomplish your objectives?

Wood Badge was originally Boy Scout training and you and your fellow trainees do function as a Boy Scout patrol throughout most of the training, but Cub Scout leaders can benefit.

Id wait a bit. You say you havent given Boy Scouts a thought, but when you watch you son crossing that bridge you might find yourself wanting to follow. Until then you have other, basic training to take and the role of a Webelos Den Leader to experience. Once you start working through that youll get a better idea of where you see yourself in Scouting. Then its time for Wood Badge!

YIS

Mike

By the way, Studentscout, Kudu is a poster on this Forum who endorses traditional scouting and he has stated that the key to promoting a boy lead troop and the patrol method is to have each patrol camp 300 feet apart as suggested by Baden Powell.

YIS

Mike

Studentscout,

I dont think any of the posters are yucking it up over the incident that started this thread. Initially, the debate was over the extremity of the punishment (and everyone agreed there should be punishment) and who should be punished.

Things have kinda gotten sidetracked over the hazing prank debate.

I think what Beavah and the others are trying to say is there is nothing wrong with a little fun. I dont know your role in Scouts, but Im primarily a Cub Leader and fun is the secret ingredient that keeps the program fresh and the boys interested. Some pranks (to use your term deceptions played on others) fall into the realm of fun, but many do not.

This brings me to some wise words that I read on this thread: you have to take each incident and judge it individually. Short-sheeting is not the same as coercing a younger boy into giving another boy urine to drink.

Another thoughtful comment was that boys in their preteens and early teens really dont think things through and may not fully realize the consequences of their actions. I look at my soon to be 13 year old son and say you got that right!

You cant throw the baby out with the bathwater. Should I not tell ghost stories at the campfire because one or two boys may be upset? Is that fair to the majority to deny them a fun and traditional camp activity? What I can do is be observant and take the appropriate action if I see a boy that appears to be getting unnerved. And yes, like you, I have experienced these situations.

You also cant confuse a one shot prank with constant harassment aimed at specific targets. Even that gets gray. Ive seen incidents where something silly happens to a scout and it becomes a running joke. For the most part its harmless, but a good leader needs to be observant and know when to pull the plug if by chance things get out of hand.

Just like in judging people, you cant paint with a broad brush; each incident is unique and should be judged by the circumstances and intent.

YIS

Mike

Studentscout, I believe your question was how can deception be a positive part of scouting?

Magic involves deception and I can tell you that our Cubs enjoy a good magic show.

A fake out is a deception, like in a game of bombardment when you make as if you were aiming for one kid and then suddenly turn and throw at another.

Any of the sight deprivation games like Blind Mans Bluff or Marco Polo involve deception.

Campfire tales of Three Fingered Willy and how he is still roaming the woods looking for his lost fingers (or something like that, I just remember the name from when I was a kid) are a deception, intended to send some chills down a boys spine.

At a Halloween Pack Meeting during a skit I suddenly pulled some realistic looking candy worms out of my pocket and began to eat them. That was a deception that the boys loved. Speaking of Halloween, arent costumes and masks a form of deception?

There are a number of skits that involve deceptions. The Invisible Bench is one of them.

All of the above are welcome deceptions at any pack or troop event and I could probably come up with more positive deceptions if I thought about it.

I would venture to say that the question should not be does deception belong in Scouting, but instead, does malicious behavior belong in Scouting? I dont think youll get any argument there.

Does that answer your question?

YIS

Mike

I believe Eagle92 is referring to the Uniform Police. Wear jeans in place of regulation pants and they will find you!

YIS

Mike

Our Pack uses individual den numbers per den and those numbers follow the boys until they cross over and the den disbands. Then the number is up for grabs.

I think this is the least confusing method and helps to build a den identity.

The year my Webelos son crossed over his brother was about to come in as a Tiger. Im kinda sentimental so I appropriated new Scout sons now no longer needed Webelos den number and used it for his brothers Tiger Den (of which I am the Den Leader). The number was 8, by the way.

YIS

Mike

But to absolutely require, or you are not a Scout, no, that is not right, not the intent of the founder

I believe Baden Powell spent a good deal of effort and attention to detail when outfitting his South African Constabulary. Granted, that was a formal policing organization, but I think it says something to his mindset on the importance of the uniform. Maybe some of you traditional scouting experts can add your expertise as to Baden Powells thoughts on the matter?

Perhaps the BSA is being purposely ambiguous in the topic of the uniform for the reasons that many of you touched upon? Im sure none of us would turn away a boy who wants to be a scout because he could not afford a uniform. Speaking for myself, though, I would do all I could to see that the boy got, at a minimum, a cap, shirt, neckerchief and slide. Thats not a complete uniform I know, but it would be enough to let the world know that he is a Scout and give him a sense of belonging to his Den and Pack, as well as Scouting in general. The impact of seeing a group of Cub Scouts marching in a parade in street clothes is just not the same. I wonder how popcorn and other fundraisers would fair if the boys were without uniforms?

A story: my wife attended the Parents Day at my Boy Scout sons summer camp that I was unable to attend. She and other parents were watching a call to assembly at the parade field. As the units filed in she noted most of the boys with partial or no uniforms. When my sons unit filed onto the field they were completely uniformed. My wife told me that there were many comments from the adults assembled about how good they looked. Even my wife, who is no way a scouter, was impressed by their appearance.

YIS

Mike

Good luck, Bear Dad! Wood Badge is absolutely a worthwhile as well as an energizing experience and Im sure youll enjoy it.

Wood Badge for a brand new leader gives me pause though. The Ticket requires a vision for ones Den, Pack or Troop and ones place in it. I just cant see how a person still working on learning the basics of the Program, acquiring initial training, and getting an understanding of the dynamics and needs of his/her Den, Pack or Troop can really produce an insightful Ticket.

I would suggest a couple of years in the trenches before considering Wood Badge to really reap the benefits of it.

YIS,

Mike

Thanks for those links Basementdweller; they do put an interesting light on things.

At minimum, each boy in Cub Scouting will need a uniform and a handbook.

Definitions (Websters Dictionary for Students) for will include is or are commanded to, order, decree. It sounds pretty definitive that the Cub Scout (at least) must have a uniform.

The leaders of Scoutingvolunteer and professionalshould promote the wearing of the correct, complete uniform on all suitable occasions.

Definitions (Websters Dictionary for Students) for should include ought to and less assured form of shall.

So, it looks like the BSA is saying that a Cub Scout must have a uniform, but leaders dont really have to push the issue, but it would be the right thing to do if they did?

Clear as mud.

YIS

Mike

Hi Folks,

Just got back from a hike with the Den and saw this. Just some thoughts:

At some point each of these boys need individual attention which they are not receiving in a den of 24. That the three DLs sons are the only ones to have finished the badge is good evidence of that.

While I agree that 24 is way too much for one den and that boys do need individual attention, I dont think that the fact that the leaders sons have advanced is good evidence of that. What it is good evidence of is that the den leaders care about the program and their sons advancement. In my own situation I have a Wolf Den of nine, seven who are really active. Of the seven, only two, my (the Den Leaders) son and one other boy have earned the Wolf rank to date. Three boys are very close, but are hung up on the at home requirements (#8 Cooking & Eating, #11, Duty to God). I use the Trax programs to track advancement and achievements and periodically share my records with the parents, who acknowledge that they need to get these things done. I have even done some of the other at home requirements in the Den with both scouts and parents (make a list of emergency phone numbers, for example), but, as Den Leader, I can only go so far. I believe most of these boys will advance, but the onus is on the parents on this point. Im not touching Duty to God in the Den.

Whittle chip can wait. Their rank advancement cannot. June 1st is the dead line.

Personally, I would give the scouts and their parents until August 31st to advance. I view June, July and August as the gray area. Some packs shut down; our Pack concentrates on Summertime Activity Award activities. If you have the rank you can work on the next, but if you dont, since the Cub Scout Year doesnt get rolling unit September 1st, why not give those boys the opportunity to catch up in the summer months? I have one boy who joined the Den late (in February). I dont think its fair to say too bad when we really arent going to officially starting Bear advancement until September anyway.

Scoutfish, I would only begin to assign to blame the leaders if there was absolutely no communication with parents as to what was expected and needed for advancement. Even then, ranks cannot be awarded by default if the requirements have not been met. Yes, if a boy does his best at a requirement in the den then it is completed. If the parent signs off in the book that the requirement is completed then yes, the requirement is completed. Otherwise it is not done. Even in the above situation the parents have the handbooks and would bear some culpability if little Johnny did not get his rank. Cub Scouting is a FAMILY activity and if the parents dont care enough to ask where little Johnny stands in advancement at any given point then they must shoulder some of the blame. They can always go to the Cubmaster if their questions are not being answered by the den leader(s).

Once again Scoutfish, wasn't this the EXACT same issue discussed in the thread you spun off of?

OK, that started with Tigers and you are now advocating it for your Bears.

That was exactly my reaction when I first started reading this thread!

YIS

Mike