DYB-Mike

MNBob, that one eluded me for a while as well. Its Institutional (or Institution?) Head, the top banana at the Charter Organization. The COR, Charter Organization Representative, is the IHs liaison to the pack or troop.

YIS

Mike

Lets just call it the last minute annointing as they walk out the door... so as to keep their grasp on power.

Interesting. What power are they maintaining and why do you think they want it? Do you think the new CM is not up to the job? You dont say how your pack operates maybe they just want to insure that the pack continues to offer a good program.

Have they also anointed a new CC and ACM?

Do you or others know the COR? Have other committee members tried to contact him/her to express their concerns?

YIS

Mike

But if no other parents want to take over the job what do you do?

Ah! If only we had the definitive answer to that! From my own experience and from talking with past leaders I have found that our Pack has had ebbs and flows when it comes to leaders and parents who are engaged and committed to making the Pack go. Sometimes I think it simply comes down to luck having boys with the right (read willing and enthusiastic) parents or guardians come into your Pack. There can even be a downside to that. Many times those types of people are also involved in so many other activities that they can only offer so much time to the Pack.

Our Pack recently had boy come in as a Webelos II. His parents were great! They came to the planning meetings and helped run the fundraising snack bars we had at our Pinewood Derby and District Pinewood Derby. Then boy crossed over and they were gone oh, we hardly knew ye!

All you can do is keep an eye out for good candidates to lead or even simply help with the planning process. The father of the boy mentioned above always kept telling me Ill do anything you want, but Im not putting on the shirt. There does come a point, however, that if you cant get the Den leaders you have to turn interested boys away and you need to keep putting that point across at every Pack meeting and in as many Pack communications as you can. If your District is committed to keeping you pack thriving they may be able to help with leadership recruitment, but it really is grass-roots.

Have you taken a poll of the Pack membership to see if there is an optimal time for planning meetings? I tried that in order to stimulate attendance, but admittedly to no avail. We ended up leaving the meetings at the same day and time, but it might work for you. Sometimes baby sitting is the problem so if your meeting space allows you might offer a spot with distractions (books, puzzles) for kids to play while the parents meet.

Ive also found in our Pack that assigning duties to no shows isnt really looked at as punitive. Most of the parents will gladly bring refreshments and supplies and help out at Pack meetings - they simply just want to be told what to do. It would be nice if more of them participated in the planning though.

Good luck!

YIS

Mike

Scoutfish, that does sound like an OA ceremony team. Weve had them at one or two of our Crossovers, which happen at our annual Family Campout. The ceremony is done at the campfire and the participation of the OA team makes for a mystical, truly memorable event.

Irsap, if you are willing I think your participation in the Crossover would be neat. I would suggest it happen after the boys have crossed and have received their loops, etc. and have been greeted by the Troop. Then have the Cub master say something like Folks, Mr./Ms. Irsap will be joining the Troop as an ASM. Lets give him/her a big thank you (and/or Cub Scout cheer) for his/her work with our boys and wish him/her luck in his/her new duties as ASM. Then cross and be greeted by the Troop leaders. Quick and simple.

I see nothing wrong with recognizing a good leader. The boys you served will take pride in seeing their Akela recognized and it might encourage a parent who is on the fence about signing on by seeing how his or her hard work would be appreciated.

YIS

Mike

The Blancmange,

Bizarre, and sick, indeed. I didnt notice the dates on the posts when I started reading the thread.

If there is a silver lining it is that the thread was new to me (and Im sure to others) and I got some good ideas out of it. I like the paper airplanes, but can anyone tell me what paper stomp rockets are? Sounds interesting.

YIS

Mike

Wow! This is a great and timely thread for our Pack.

We have decided to go with pot luck this year for the B&G. For the last several years we had catering (last year it was simply pizza, salad, and cake), but this year we wanted to keep costs down so its back to pot luck.

There are great suggestions here and Im going to forward this thread to the Committee. I just so happens were meeting tonight to finalize the B&G plans.

My only comment is that I dont see how having the meal catered vs. pot luck will solve the problem of the gluttons. I think having servers is an excellent suggestion and more effective.

The time we reserve for eating is for just for that eating. Awards, activities, and entertainment are totally separate. This does make for a long B&G, but weve had no complaints. The B&G is supposed to be a bigger event than a pack meeting anyway.

We are going to circulate a spreadsheet for sign ups and break it down by type (salads, entrees) to try to ensure we dont get all of the same thing. The Pack is providing a sheet birthday cake for dessert.

Im keeping my fingers crossed we dont end up in Pot Luck Hell.

YIS

Mike

I suggest that there is only one standard in Cub Scouting: Do Your Best.

Apparently the Cubmaster in question may have memorized many things, but not the motto.

I approach the Bobcat requirement as a discussion about what the things mean, rather than rote memorization. The memorization comes with our (notice I didnt say my) Pack and Den Meeting Opening Ceremonies where the Promise and Law are recited. They learn quickly through that venue. So it should be with the Webelos badge. Emphasize understanding for the Webelos Badge and practice at the den meeting until it is learned for the AOL as required.

Isnt the meaning more important than just memorizing a bunch of words?

YIS

Mike

I jinxed myself!

I thought that my wife had given up on the sporty kid, but a few hours after I made my post to this thread I discovered that she had enrolled Wolf Cub son in Little League again!

Oh well take me out to the ball game

YIS

Mike

Bear Dad,

Sorry to hear about the cancellation thats a tough break. Hopefully youll get a refund.

A bit of advice if you havent been told already dont hesitate to look for training outside of your District or Council. You may find another District or Council offering just what youre looking for at a time that works for you. There is no rule that you must train in your District or Council.

Good Luck.

YIS

Mike

Sorry to hear that. Apparently the troop activities still appear chaotic to you.

Do you feel more welcome than before? Have you followed up on the suggestions to get more involved with leadership or instructing?

Is your son enjoying himself? Does he like camping? Does he appear to be getting anything out of it? If you are still concerned with the chaos do you talk with your son about what you think is wrong and get his feedback? If so, does he agree with you?

It may simply be that scouting is not your cup of tea.

Im kinda in the opposite boat. My wife played sports in school and is what you might call a natural athlete. She dreamed of having at least one sporty kid. As for me, I was not athletic and never had an interest in sports (though I did row crew in high school and enjoyed it). When the kids (two boys and a girl) came along my wife enrolled them in soccer and baseball and I dutifully helped out by trucking them around and attending games to show the kids I supported them like I felt a good parent should even though sports were not my thing. Alas for my wife, none of them proved to be sporty, and soon lost interest, but the boys got into scouting and enjoy it. They like the camping and hiking and so do I. Scouting was a good fit for us.

Im both a Cub Scout and Boy Scout leader, although more focused on the Cubs at this point. In the Cubs we adults are in control and things are fairly well ordered, but when I go with the troop its a different world. There are times when the Cub-Commander in me would like to step in and show the way, but thats not how it works - the boys run the show. I know that no matter how bad things seem (his troop is pretty well organized, not perfect but certainly not what I would call chaotic) my son is learning from the mistakes. More importantly, we talk about the highs and the lows and what HE can do to try and fix things he doesnt like.

The bottom line to me would be what my son was feeling and what he thought of the Program and whether he felt that he was getting something out of it. As long as he is happy and not being negatively affected then let HIM enjoy it, even if it isnt YOUR thing.

YIS

Mike

My Wolf Cub sons slide is off more often than on. I tried bending the metal flaps on the back inward to tighten the hold but no luck.

I have a few antique Cub Scout woggles that I suggested my son wear but he wanted his slide. Solution - I put the slide on and then slipped the woggle on directly under it (not hidden by the slide). It looks a little silly but the slide stays on now.

YIS

Mike

I wouldnt say your example is over-planning, but sounds more like cramming.

Over-planning to me is having an excess of activities (and the necessary equipment) on hand so that if something turns out to be boring, unpopular, or just moves faster than anticipated, you have something else to offer aside from dead air.

So activity A, though popular, has been done before. Why not activity B and C? Theyre fresh and maybe theyll be just as popular. You could offer activity B and C and put A in your back pocket. If B and C are going nowhere or finish up quick, then pull out A and do it up to free time, then you dont have to cut anything. Thats over-planning, not the cramming you described.

YIS

Mike

Scoutfish,

Our Pack holds an annual Family Campout that includes scouts, parents, siblings, and whoever else wants to tag along. We also do an ice cream social at a local park with the same type attendees. In all cases we have an agenda with planned activities. Everybody has a good time, even the siblings. Believe it or not the parents expect the scheduling and organization.

No offense, but I think its you who are missing the point. You can have a lot of fun at a Cub Scout function, whether its a pack meeting or family camp out. You can have sack races which are just plain fun and you can have nature walks where you can learn something, but you really need some kind of structure to hold the event together. Heck you could even factor in free time where folks can do what they want, as long as theyre back in time for dinner or the campfire.

As the old misquoted Baden Powell saying goes Scouting is a game with a purpose. Games are fun, but whether blatant or subtle, the aims of Scouting should be worked in. Thats the purpose.

If you want a do your own thing event call up your best buds and have your own family camp out, but if you do it under the aegis of Scouting, then you have a certain obligation to the Program.

Just my opinion.

YIS

Mike

Seems we over plan and try to account for every bit of the fun (while being educational and scout-like) in every activity right down to the very smallest scouting moments.

Scoutfish, while this may seem like micromanagement, over planning is actually essential to the success of everything from a den meeting to a jamboree. Without it you many find yourself with the situation you hoped to avoid BOREDOM as the boys stand around waiting for the leaders to decide what comes next, how the rules should work, or go searching for props. I can remember pack meetings where everything went too well too quickly and we leaders were left staring at each other silently asking what next? Situations like this can lead to chaos boys running off in all directions which is not safe and not fun. A well-organized event makes you look good to the parents as well an effective leader who knows what he or she is doing.

The trick is to be flexible. If something is going well and the boys are having a blast then put the next scheduled activity in your back pocket. Who knows, maybe what finally comes next will be a dud and then youll be glad you have that activity tucked away.

While I dont think that every activity has to be a learning experience and that theres room for silliness, I do believe that ALL activities should be tasteful (not in a prissy way, just inoffensive) and safe. The boys should be expected to conduct themselves in a scout-like manner, showing honesty, humility (I personally think that a scout is humble should be added to the Scout Law), helpfulness, and good sportsmanship.

YIS

Mike

Some thoughts:

Will you be near water? how about a fishing derby?

Near a good size field? divide the boys into teams and have some contests like tug-o-war or dodge ball. Maybe have prizes for the winning team.

If you can get access early how about concealing some prizes for a treasure hunt? May a scavenger hunt for specific natural items like a Y-shaped stick or an oval stone? Have the kids police the area gathering litter with a prizes for the most collected or the most unusual item (you get a neat campsite and have fun).

Set up a course where the boys have to find specific landmarks with a compass (and map if available for the campsite).

You didnt mention a campfire program. Load up on skits, songs and games, as well as the obligatory spooky stories. See if the Ceremonies Team of your local OA chapter had some ceremony they could perform by the campfire. If they had the time and expertise perhaps they could provide some instruction or stories of Native American crafts or lore.

Good luck!

YIS,

Mike

Scoutfish,

No, its not against the rules just to have fun, in fact its encouraged!

My only suggestion would be not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Retain some formal elements, like an Opening with the Colors, Pledge of Allegiance, and Promise, and a Closing. A Family Campout makes a great venue for an awards ceremony or Crossover, especially by the campfire. These things have an appeal in their own right and help to make the event memorable.

And who says you cant have fun while learning something, like a treasure hunt where you have to use a compass to find the booty?

I would also encourage leaders to wear their uniforms, but thats just me.

These little touches help remind the boys that they are Scouts and that they need to keep the Promise and Law of the Pack in mind as they pursue the zany, crazy (but SAFE) fun you have planned.

YIS

Mike

"if then den camp as a wolf, whats left for Boy Scouts

Plenty! Just the nature of the two programs, the Cub adult-lead vs. the Boy Scout boy-lead, makes Boy Scout camping a different experience. Im only a novice camper, having camped in Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and non-scout settings, and Im sure seasoned campers would agree that the science of camping and woodcraft is huge and there is plenty to learn and experience in the 12 year span that is Scouts. Add to that outdoor games, activities, and nature study. I dont think the boys would get bored by starting camping early, but more with attending poorly planned campouts at the same location with no activities to challenge them or that are fun.

When I try to sell the program to potential Cub Scouts at Roundups it is camping that is the number one draw. My Wolf Den is constantly asking when are we going camping (fishing is number two). We as leaders worry about retention, getting our boys outdoors, and competition with sports, but yet the BSA puts restrictions on our most potent weapon against these issues.

I have trouble understanding why a small group of boys (a Den) poses a greater liability risk than a whole Pack, assuming that adequate adult supervision/coverage, Youth Protection, and other Safe Scouting guidelines are followed in both instances. Does anyone know of any statistics that would support the current BSA position on Den camping?

The concept of progression was discussed. The interests, abilities, and maturity of an 8 year old are much different than that of a 13 year old (well, maybe the maturity is debatable), so I think the answer would be to provide age appropriate activities and challenges in the camp setting, not simply just saying that the 8 year old Den cant camp and the 13 year old Patrol can.

I really feel that the BSA is missing the boat on Den Camping and the fact that folks have crafted ways to deal with the prohibition is to me an indication that National should take a look at the issue.

It kinda strikes me as a hold-over from the days when Cubs were viewed as an afterthought, not even worthy of the name Scout.

YIS

Mike

Greetings!

Were using a variation of the same theme, sort of a scouting/camping/happy birthday mix. We began talking about it last year and had the vague idea of setting it up like a jamboree, to mimic the 2010 Jamboree, with ideas like outdoor patrol cooking and a camp-in, but couldnt quite make it work. Maybe you can if your neck of the woods is warm and snow free this time of the year.

Some things we are doing include:

* Having a Belt Loop Lane, to mimic the Merit Badge Midway, with four or five easy belt loops.

* Setting up a rifle range with elastic shooters.

* Using our artificial campfire and bringing in a professional storyteller for camp yarns and song around the fire.

Were doing pot luck this year and calling that patrol cooking. We were thinking of doing a chili contest as well. For dessert were having a birthday cake and for awards presentation were using the birthday present idea described in Baloos Bugle.

I collect scouting memorabilia so Im going to display some of that, but you can easily find pictures on the web to print out and make up some displays. Pictures of your local 100 years ago would be neat too. If you have a local historical society perhaps they could come a do a presentation of what your local was like 100 years ago (wish I had thought of that earlier).

Research some old Boy and Cub Scout games and play them. Have the boys do a Grand Howl or the Living Circle, which date from the beginning of Baden-Powells Wolf Cubs and used by the early BSA Cubs.

Good Luck!

YIS

Mike

Hi Folks,

Sashas point about the patches being mementoes and John-in-KCs observation that were talking about 8 year olds here kinda sums up my feelings.

Ill also add that its my experience that the boys want the patches. We recruited several new Cubs early in this past June and at the end of the month many of them marched in our towns Fourth of July (yes, it was in June) parade. As I stood with the new boys in front who were holding the Pack banner one of them asked me are we getting a patch for this? You can bet that at the first Pack Meeting in September all the boys who marched in the parade got a generic parade patch.

Keep in mind also that for most of these boys camping out or sleeping in a tent is a big deal because this is the first time that theyve done it. All of these new experiences are exciting for these young boys. My Wolf son was sad that he had to give up his New England Aquarium sleepover patch so he could wear his Progress Toward Ranks totem, but he felt better when I told him he could put it on his brag vest.

Yes, I am a fan of brag vests. A brag vest full of colorful patches makes a great ice breaker or conversation starter.

When is it too much? I suppose giving a patch for attending the monthly pack meeting would be too much, but I dont feel memento patches for the annual pack campout or the Blue and Gold Banquet is too much. Admittedly custom patches are more readily meaningful than generic, but can a pack afford them?

YIS,

Mike

Hi Folks,

While looking through the sale bins at our local Scout Shop a while back I came across a four-corner neckerchief packaged with a small book entitled Scouting with a Neckerchief by W. E. Longfellow, copyright 1927. The book is an obvious reproduction although there is no printed indication that it is.

In it, James E. West rails about boys wearing the neckerchief under instead of over the shirt collar. He instructs every Scout and Scout Official to make sure that they get their uniforming correct and warns To tolerate a conscious disregard for requirements, even in simple matters, breeds disrespect for law and order. Ouch! Im glad he isnt around to see my Cub Scouts in jeans. Sorry Mr. West, I do try!

I regularly wear a neckerchief over the collar. I prefer the older, four corner ones, which are cheap and plentiful on eBay. These neckerchiefs are large enough so that it really doesnt matter whether the collar is turned in or not. I dont turn it in. Scouting with a Neckerchief does not say whether the collar needs to be turned in.

OldGreyEagle, I too share your amazement of the fact that the iconic neckerchief is optional.

YIS

Mike

Hi Folks,

Just some thoughts and suggestions on this topic:

If your Pack doesnt have one, put together a Pack Handbook. It saves loads of time helping new parents and their scouts get acclimated. I can remember writing a long email to my Tiger Den parents trying to cover all the basics. We then developed the Handbook (makes a nice Wood Badge ticket item) and now we simply hand it out (or email an electronic copy) to new or prospective Cub Scout Parents. It makes things so much easier. Our Handbook covers information specific to our Pack (contacts, meeting times and location, etc.) and general Cub Scout information (uniforming, badge placement, ranks, etc.). There are still questions, but a lot less of the basic ones.

Our September Pack Meeting is billed as an open house and our District provides flyers to the schools (and we do a little of our own advertising as well). When we tried to combine running the Pack Meeting with dealing with new and prospective Cub Scout families it was somewhat chaotic. The approach we then took was to schedule the open house portion an hour before the regular Pack Meeting, that way the den leaders and I could deal one on one with the new families. We of course invite them to stay and experience the Pack Meeting, which now the other leaders and I can focus on. We try to put our best foot forward, so to speak, at this Pack Meeting as we realize a crop of new Cubs hinges on how fun and engaging we make the meeting (not that we dont try to make all of our Pack Meetings fun and engaging). This approach seems to work well for us.

Our Pack runs a year-round program with special events in the summer. We do an Ice Cream Social in June which is actually a recruiting venue. We have activities in addition to the ice cream but as it is not as formal as a Pack Meeting we are able to devote more time to new and prospective Cub Scout families. Cubs recruited there are kept active with the summertime events and are seasoned Cub Scouts by the time September rolls around.

I do feel sheepish about pushing the popcorn sales to new families (as well as to those who have been around), but what are you going to do? As others have pointed out the timing is lousy and, if your Pack is like mine, you need the revenue. At least those that we recruit in June arent hit up right off the bat.

YIS

Mike

Well said ScoutNut.

I can relate to Scouts #7 and #8. If my Tiger and Tenderfoot sons were punished through the Pack and the Troop for all their fraternal disagreements that occurred outside of scouting, they would be missing a lot inside of scouting!

YIS

Mike

Greetings Palopinto,

I too share your pain. Our Pack has lost some good leaders in the last couple of years both to cross over and loss of interest. This May we stand to loose our two Webelos den leaders and our Cubmaster. In addition to being leaders they were heavily involved in the planning and execution of Pack events.

Absolutely, tact is needed in approaching prospective leaders. One of my favorite sayings is you catch more flies with honey - an old clich, but Ive found it to be true. Just before I started we had one leader in our Pack make a were not Babysitters of America speech, which didnt prove to be very effective.

This gives me an opportunity to plug the thread I started back on March 30th, Baloo Wants You Take Two. Im experimenting with laying the groundwork before approaching prospective leaders, softening up our targets so to speak. I figure folks dont like to be put on the spot or would be naturally apprehensive about taking on a responsibility that is unknown to them. Rather than just handing out a handbook with a list of leader responsibilities, Im trying to make it more personal by providing a document to new parents, that they can read at their own leisure, in which leaders tell in their own words why they do it, how they manage scouting responsibilities with their other responsibilities, and what benefits they get out of Cub Scout leadership. This approach does not supersede the face to face conversation, but it may make folks more receptive since it gives them a feel for what they're getting into. At least, thats my theory.

Please check out the thread and tell your story!

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=233129

YIS,

Mike

Greetings Scouters,

Ive been working on a Wood Badge project of assembling narratives (for want of a better term) of current and former Cub Scout leaders that combine descriptions of their leadership experience with words of advice and encouragement. These narratives would be put into printed form, entitled Baloo Wants You, to be given to new and prospective Cub Scout parents. By providing this information upfront I hope to avoid the deer in the headlights / put on the spot feeling of parents when they are approached about assuming leadership positions. The best case scenario would be that the narratives are so motivational and entertaining that the parents would approach us first. I can dream cant I?

Ive been working with my local leadership, getting written accounts and setting up interviews, but I thought I would try to expand the scope. I had posted a request on the Yahoo Cub Scout Talk board that, while yielding some positive comments, has not been very fruitful. So I thought I would try a different approach on the Scouter Forums.

Instead of sending narratives to me for sharing with the world at a later date, as I had been requesting, just respond to this thread. By responding to the thread I would assume you would have no objection to my including your words in my hand-out to parents. I would make a reference to the Forums and your screen name. If you had something more to contribute or have questions please feel free to email me.

If you chose to respond please try to incorporate the following questions:

* What prompted you to become a Cub Scout leader?

* Did you find it difficult to integrate your Cub Scout duties with your other day-to day activities and responsibilities?

* What are some of the things you find/found satisfying about being/having been a Cub Scout leader?

* Can you share a favorite story from your Cub Scout leadership experiences?

* What words of advice or encouragement do you have for potential Cub Scout Leaders?

Through these real stories by real people the ultimate message Im hoping to convey is that Cub Scout leadership is rewarding, fun and, while challenging at times, is not rocket science. If we can do it, so can you!

Thanks!

YIS

Mike

Hi Thoover,

Im nearing the end of my stint as a Tiger Den Leader so Ill just throw out my experiences.

Ive found that boys of Tiger age do like crafts. Ive also taught 1st and 2nd religious education classes and have found that to be the case there as well. You know when your oral presentation has run too long when a boy raises his hand and asks can we do our craft now? That being said, Ive tried to balance my den meetings between a craft, advancement activity, and a game. For my gathering I usually let the boys run around and play a game of tag, which seems to help getting some of the energy out before they have to get serious for the opening ceremony. I may also have a game at the end

I try to have most of the crafts serve a purpose. Ive had the boys make thank you cards and drawings for Pack Meeting guests and the hosts of our Go See Its. As it was said you can have crafts that satisfy elective requirements. I gave the boys copies of photos I took of the Den and they assembled foamy picture frames for them (elective #4). One craft turned into a game. The boys and their Tiger Partners assemble pre-cut Marshmallow Shooters (a blow gun for mini-marshmallows made from PVC) and then had contests of who could shoot the farthest or the most marshmallows. Even the leaf rubbing craft, which I thought was lame, was put to good use as we discussed the form and function of the leaf, how it fit into the life cycle of the tree, and leaf identification (oak, maple, etc.).

I try to add a little meat to the advancement requirements. As part of planning and conducting a fire drill I asked the boys and their Tiger Partners make maps of their homes showing the escape routes which we went over at the Den Meeting. I didnt make this an additional requirement, just something extra to help the boys get a little more out of the exercise.

My Tigers also performed our Blue and Gold flag ceremony. We practiced following the proper format and I tried to work in bits of information, such as it is disrespectful to allow the US flag to touch the ground. You right in thinking that the boys wouldnt get much out of a lecture, but keep in mind the boys will encounter flag etiquette in the later ranks when they are older and better able to absorb the information. For the record my Tigers were quiet, respectful, and didnt goof around. I think they did a great job with the flag ceremony for boys their age.

So, to your points, I guess you might say the crafts issue is subjective. If the crafts always serve no greater purpose than just keeping the boys busy with crayons and glue then yes, I might agree with you. If the crafts help to fulfill a requirement or elective or if they help teach something then I think of them more as projects or experiments. As for ticking off advancements, again I guess that depends on the den leader. From what Ive read and what Ive found to be true is that at Tiger age in order to keep the boys engaged and happy you need to keep the den meeting moving. The learning is done almost in passing as you move along from activity to activity. These boys have five years to absorb the Core Values and come to understand the meaning of the Cub Scout Promise. In my humble opinion the most important thing, especially at Tiger age, is to make sure the boys have fun.

YIS,

Mike