DYB-Mike

Hi stripersteve,

It sounds like what you have is a Cubmasters patch. The Assistant Cubmaster patch was green with gold trim. There were other adult position patches with different color backgrounds and trim. Later they were made with the position name on them as well. Probably the previous patches were confusing to the uninitiated.

Im not sure on the dates of use, late 1950s or early 60s maybe?

YIS,

Mike

But I do beleive this to be a great thread that "should" settle the debate that has been going on for a long while

HA HA Scoutfish, do I detect a tongue planted firmly in cheek with that statement? Youve been around this Forum long enough to know that topics like this are never really settled, but thats what makes this a great place. Very often I read perspectives that I never considered and sometimes they change my view of things.

I think we can all agree that the uniform is a Method of Scouting and that when the uniform is worn there is a specific way in which it should be worn. Even that fact causes debate, for example, allowing jeans to be worn in place of uniform pants.

There is a purpose for wearing the uniform and that is spelled out in the Cub Scout Leader Book. I dont have a Scoutmasters Handbook so I cant speak to that.

Like you, I cant recollect read anywhere that the uniform is mandatory. As Calico Penn states a uniform may be mandatory for specific events, but thats the policy of those organizing the event. A Pack or Troop might make it mandatory as a part of its own policy. I know in my older sons Troop that the uniform is mandatory for Courts of Honor, Scout Sunday services and most Troop Meetings. We have similar requirements in our Pack.

I guess all that can be said is that, while there is no all encompassing the uniform is mandatory in BSA guidance, for a unit to flat out not require a uniform in any circumstances seem, to me, to be contrary to the purpose and image of Scouting. Thats just my opinion.

YIS

Mike

Traditionally the neckerchief was worn over the collar.

I have a reprint of a publication Scouting with a Neckerchief by W.E. Longfellow, copyright 1927, that contains an admonishment by then Chief Scout Executive James E. West about the proper wearing of the neckerchief. After instruction of how to place the neckerchief over the collar, West is quoted To tolerate a conscious disregard for requirements, even in simple matters, breeds disrespect for law and order. A little over the top, but theres no mistaking what the proper way to wear the neckerchief was in Wests day.

I think, and other scouters can correct me, that when the stylish ODR uniform came en vogue the neckerchief went under the collar. I think collarless shirts went out of style at that time as well, although I dont see what the problem is with wearing a neckerchief over a collar shirt.

I have a collection of old full square neckerchiefs (readily available on eBay) that I choose a couple to wear from. I also have a couple of triangular Cubs BSA (c. 1930-47) neckerchiefs that I also wear. These are larger than the current triangular Cub Scout neckerchiefs.

I think the look of the neckerchief over the collar is both traditional and more "rugged" looking than under. You dont see scouts of the Old West with neckerchiefs under the collar.

Please wear your neckerchief proudly! It is one of the traditional, universal symbols of Scouting!

YIS

Mike

I generally wear a campaign hat, although Im still searching for the perfect one. By perfect I mean one that has been broken in, not too stiff a vintage BSA. I take a 7 3/8 to 7 , which appears not to be that common, but I keep searching on eBay.

For a while I was wearing my Wood Badge patrol cap, but I just got my Beads (happy day!) and I have retired it.

Sometimes I wear the new BSA cap.

YIS

Mike

Well Scoutfish, I must say I have a greater appreciation for your situation than I had with your initial scripted Pack Family Campout post way back when.

I am surprised that your outdoorsy Den Leader appears to be such an indoor lecturer.

Im still curious where your Cubmaster is in all this. My Pack is currently a small one, 33 registered boys with more like 28 active. Our Committee is basically the Den Leaders and myself (Cubmaster and Wolf Den Leader). We get along very well. I usually bring an outline for the Pack Meeting or other activity to the Committee Meeting and we hash it out from there. We share suggestions and everyone buys into the Program because everyone is part of the process. I wish we could get more parent input (sometimes we do) at the Committee level, but at least our parents are willing to help out by providing supplies and personpower when needed for the events.

By the way, I know that by the book I should not be holding Cubmaster and Den Leader positions, but that is by the will of the active leaders and currently its working. One thing Ive seen is that there is theory and there is practice. The most important thing is that the Program is being delivered to the boys and that the boys are learning, advancing, AND having FUN in the process.

I still also have the question about how the other parents in both your Den and the your Pack in general (as well as the other leaders) feel about the way things are going. Although the Law of the Pack says the Cub Scout makes the Pack go I personally feel its the adults that truly make the Pack go. If the Cubmaster is not providing leadership and coordinating with the den leaders, if the Committee is not providing the necessary backup support, and if the parents are not stepping up, then the Pack (the boys) suffers. Training (and meeting with other Scouters at Roundtable) helps the leaders understand and realize the importance of their roles within the Pack and dens. Sometimes you have to make due with what you have; it's harder, but not necessarily impossible. The Pack leadership always needs to be on the lookout for potential GOOD leaders to help make things easier and better.

The bottom line is you can have fun, just always keep in mind the aims of Cub Scouting as you plan (and you must plan to succeed) your activities.

I wish you luck moving forward. Others have offered you some great advice on this (and the earlier) thread.

YIS

Mike

Scoutfish,

It does sound like you have an issue with the Bear Den as far as size goes with all those boys you have two or three dens there!

But it is a Pack problem. The Committee and Cubmaster should be addressing the issue of the Bear Den size and trying to recruit leaders for the additional dens. It also sounds like the Den Leader may be bogged down in paperwork that the Committee should be handling. For example, if you had an Events Coordinator, that person would be chasing folks down for payments due on events. The Treasurer could also handle that.

It sounds like you consider the Bear Den Leader a good, knowledgeable person. His tunnel vision might just be the fact that hes bogged down in the paperwork and trying to manage too many boys. You say he is outdoorsy but it sounds like he doesnt get the boys out much. Why do you think that is too many boys, lack of help or his busy personal schedule? Arent you his Assistant Den Leader? Does the Den Leader listen to your suggestions and accept your help or is he autocratic

You are correct that boys advance at their own pace and not all the blame can be placed on the den leader if boys dont advance. There are many requirements that must be handled at home and if the parents dont cooperate there is not much the den leader can do.

As for the Pack Family Campout, the Cubmaster is the responsible for the Program and he/she should be organizing the activities. Where is the Cubmaster in all this? If I understand you correctly it sounds like the Bear Den Leader just took it upon himself to hold the Whittlin Chit session. Does this mean that there is no set plan for the Pack Family Campout? Does the Cubmaster communicate with the den leaders about Pack events and make sure everybodys on the same page?

I think the Whittlin Chit activity was a good one and even though there were a lot of boys it would be doable provided there was proper planning and adequate adult supervision. Was it just the Den Leader running the activity himself or did he have any assistance?

It also sounds like there is a lack of training throughout the Pack and den leadership. Do you have a Pack Trainer on your committee responsible for coordinating training?

YIS,

Mike

Yes, kudos to the scout for his honesty.

I cant blame him for taking the reward, $100 is a lot of money, but I also cant help thinking: what if the Unknown Scout took Boyces tip?

YIS

Mike

ScoutNut,

Glad to do it! Ive do some other Cub Leader training as well my part was on advancement and uniforming. I enjoy meeting other scouters and swapping ideas and stories. In that way, I get trained as well.

I havent received the Baloo syllabus or my assignment as yet.

I remember my favorite part of Baloo training was making the foil dinners. I had never experienced them before and boy, were they ever good!

YIS

Mike

Granted... if this was serial number 00001, and it was still in shrinkwrap, then I suppose it would find it's way onto my patch blanket.

Lost shrink-wrap! Needle holes!

Im CRINGING!

Ive got two (ones a duplicate) very rare CSPs from my Council. I paid a lot of money for them. One part of me wants to sew one of them on my uniform, but the collector in me just cant bring myself to take a needle to it!

YIS

Mike

Scoutfish,

Ive been reading and re-reading yours posts and responses on this topic (and the earlier, related one) and I THINK Im beginning to get what you are trying to say.

The trouble is, for me anyway, you throw in all these red herrings about methods and scripted programs, when I think all you really want to say is:

I feel our Family Campouts are a bit stale. What can we do to liven up the event?

Is that it?

Most of your suggestions, like the sack races, do have merit and are acceptable activities, although the burping contest is still debatable (the cautions on offensive activities still stand). I think the way you are framing your posts is whats causing the debate.

This brings me back to the questions I asked in my previous post:

Are your concerns about the scripted events yours alone or have other adults and/or scouts voiced the same opinions?

And

Have you approached the Cubmaster with your ideas? If so, how were they received?

Im going to go out on a limb here and speculate that you have approached your Cubmaster with your ideas and you didnt get the response you hoped for. This might explain the way you framed your posts and the tone of defensiveness in your responses.

ScoutNut, thanks for the Baloo refresher. Ive signed on to help with a Baloo training this coming June and your lecture was helpful.

YIS,

Mike

Scoufish, Im getting dj vu. Didnt you start a discussion of this topic in another thread?

The advice given to you before and now is sound. An unstructured, poorly planned event can lead to all sorts of problems, including boredom. As I wrote before, OVER planning is the actual goal. Better so many activities you cant do them all than not enough so you are scrambling and giving the impression of disorganization.

Yes, there is room for just plain old fun in the activities and if you research Cub Scout literature (handbooks, Program Helps, Pow Wow books, etc.), as well as the web, youll find plenty of fun activities and games.

When you signed on as a leader you agreed to deliver the Cub Scout program and your challenge is to help put together events that are fun, engaging, and a little educational all in one.

I have a couple of questions that occurred to me this time around. Have you approached the Cubmaster with your ideas? If so, how were they received? Are your concerns about the scripted events yours alone or have other adults and/or scouts voiced the same opinions?

By the way, I see youre really into the burping contest. I think using that as a method of cub scouting is a stretch. This brings up an important point: make sure you run by your peers and the Cubmaster any activities that could be of questionable taste before doing them. What might seem like harmless fun to you might be offensive to others. Im not sure how a burping contest would fly in our Pack. Ill have to ask.

YIS,

Mike

If you cross the W2's over in May I believe that it is a recipe for failure,

All I can say is from my experience with our Pack and Troop over the last four years is that there is a high retention rate with our May cross over Scouts.

Basementdweller, I dont know where your region is but the logic for us is that there is a greater recipe for failure to put new scouts with little camping experience out in the cold and snow that we have in New England prior to May.

The boys Cross Over in May is a campout and as new scouts they also get a camping trip in June. The new scouts and parents get a couple of info sessions on summer camp as well before they go.

Could it be done differently, with more cold weather camping for the Webelos? Perhaps, but the bottom line is if it works and the retention is there why change it? More to the point, if it works for us then perhaps it would work for others with the proper planning.

YIS

Mike

Remember that Cubs cannot start work on their next rank until June 1.

Yes, Im aware of that Eagle92, but I can see from re-reading my post how you could have made your observation. My son is excited about the next level and Im happy with his enthusiasm to keep going.

YIS,

Mike

Phibbles,

I hear ya.

My son just earned Wolf rank and is anxious to see what he can do with his Bear requirements. Since Im his Den Leader I wouldnt mind getting a preview of whats in store for next year, but I dont want to invest in a handbook thats going to be revised.

At this point Im going to wait. My son still has a lot of electives he can do so there is no rush.

I guess Im fortunate that I have my older sons old Bear handbook. At least I can get some idea of what to expect.

YIS,

Mike

Most of the time we use the theater row chair set up with Cubs in front and adults in the back.

Occasionally weve set up the chairs in a hybrid semi-circle, that is, with the theater rows for the adults in back and the semi-circle for the Cubs in front. Weve used this for certain presentations or when we use our artificial campfire.

We had a campfire storyteller at our Blue and Gold this year and for that we had the Cubs sit on the floor in a semi-circle and the adults in chairs behind in a kind of semi-circle as well. I also remember the Cubs seated on the floor for a Halloween presentation.

I guess it boils down to what we think will work best for the presentation were doing.

YIS

Mike

Eagle92,

The adult leader wearing the patrol patch - to your knowledge is that a recent change?

Not to hijack the thread but about 21 months ago, when I was preparing to wear my Wood Badge patrol critter, I was told by several sources that, officially, adult leaders did not wear patrol patches. Of course unofficially everyone did.

It appears from the links you provided that now officially they can, or does that just apply to the Webelos den leader. The links dont appear to make any distinction.

YIS,

Mike

Phibbles,

I got my quotes from the Presentation link on the Cub Scouts 2010 page. Its a Power Point entitled Operational Overview and dated 1/21/2010.

I didnt note a slide show. I tried clicking on the video link but it brought me to Presentation and the Power Point.

YIS

Mike

The problem stems from the poor organization of this Pack. Instead of crossing the Webelos over in February or early March they wait till May.

Basementdweller, lets not give our friend Scoutfish the wrong impression. Crossing Over in May is not necessarily due to poor organization. It is our Packs tradition and our Scoutmaster loves it. I have expained the whys in other threads so suffice it to say here that it works for all concerned.

We do not have a graduation for our remaining Cub ranks (although I like the idea and am giving it some thought for our Pack), but at the Cross Over, which is held at our May Family Campout, we award ranks and other awards to any other Cubs who have earned them at that time. In fact, the Tigers have a special ceremonial Drinking of the Buffalo Blood thats done at the Family Campout as well. Granted, the Webelos who are crossing over are the main event, but the recognition of the other Cub Scouts achievements hasnt detracted from that special ceremony.

If (or maybe when) our Pack had a graduation ceremony for the other Cubs, I would suggest that it not involve the Cross Over Bridge. I do agree that the Bridge should be reserved for the Webelos who are crossing to Boy Scouts, but that said, its different strokes for different folks.

YIS,

Mike

(This message has been edited by DYB-Mike)

I think your DE is not being fair to both the parents of potential scouts and to the existing Pack leadership by directing you to keep mum about parent involvement. Parents should be told up front that parental involvement is necessary to make the pack go. They dont have to be den leaders (but that would be nice), but they do need to understand up front that they are expected to help in some way.

Do you have a Pack Handbook? We prepared one that covers the official program (aims, advancement, uniforming and such) as well as topics specific to our Pack (contacts, dues, location of Scout Shop, past activities, etc.). There is also a section on parental involvement. We found it most helpful to be able to give the handbook not only to parents who signed up but also those who are on the fence. It allowed them to digest a lot of important information at their leisure and also minimized a lot of generic questions.

Will you be able to distribute flyers in the schools? Dont forget to post them anywhere you can (church, supermarkets, etc.) Look into other ways of getting the word out (local newspaper, cable access). We have a local electric utility and we were able to advertise one of our Round Ups in the Community Bulletin flyer that comes with every months bill. One other thing we tried was to have existing scouts bring some invitations to class to personally invite their non-scout friends to the Round Up.

Like EJCrimmins suggests, have displays and activities aplenty. We had a slide show playing on a continuous loop on a laptop. Set up an old tent (or two, the freestanding kind) it makes for a great distraction, in addition to games and other activities, for the boys and their siblings. If you have enough leaders split the tasks of interacting with the boys and interacting with the parents so both groups of leaders can be completely focused on their assigned tasks.

Good luck!

YIS

Mike

So we 'll fill her up till de bottle 's drain

An' drink to de Voyageur.

But, since we be at de Webelos Woods

We fill from de Dr. Pepper.

I would like de pecan pie now, sil vous plait.

YIS

Mike

Ouch! That's "a FAQ".

According to the Cub Scout 2010 PowerPoint presentation there would be minor revisions to the youth handbooks. These would be released as Supply requires (Summer 2010+).

You can view the PowerPoint, as well as an FAQ and other information at the BSA website:

http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts2010.aspx

YIS

Mike

My son and I watched Follow Me Boys. I had never seen the movie so it was a good opportunity.

Several other scouts in my sons Troop viewed Remember the Titans

YIS

Mike

Good point Beavah; I stand corrected.

YIS

Mike

Thank you ScoutNut for coming to my defense.

Eagle732, yes it was an attempt at humor, but certainly at no ones expense. I was trying to be topical since these two subjects have recently produced three ongoing threads in the Issues and Politics section.

I have been following this thread, but I have not posted to it previously because I felt I do not have the experience to comment either way.

I do, however, feel like many others in that the original topic of this thread is done and now it has become simply a game to keep it going.

Sorry Eagle732 if you were offended, but taken in the context of the preceding posts, I think your reaction was a little overboard.

Twocubdad, just responding to Eagle 732s post; Ill be moseying along now.

YIS

Mike