DugNevius

There is always hope. I have have a few scouts that had been, at one point, major problems in the troop and at school that, overtime and with some guidence (As well as something specific to do) become very solid scouts. It just takes time.

>> If it isn't too much trouble can you tell us the political leanings of those 34 Eagle Scouts who responded?

what does that matter?

-Accountability

-Initiative

In our troop the PL leaders sign off the requirment for the scoutmembers of his patrol. The testing is done by a panel of scouts in leadership roles from outside the patrol. We try to give as much responsbility to the scouts as possible.

Yesterday our troop had a trip for the older guys (Patrol leaders, SPL ASPLs) as sort of a expanded greenbar as well as a fun time just for them. We ran into another troop from the town over and one that had many friends of our scouts. It didnt take a minute before the challanges were thrown: Football ot Ultimate Frisbee? What followed was over an hour of football.

It reminded me of when i was a scout, at summer camp challanging every troop to water polo or ultimate and starting an annual tradition of Camp staff vs our troop in Ultimate. Currently our troop spl is talking to another troop about setting up some games at the park.

Do you plays sports as a troop? How do yu feel about competition?

If a scout is homesick and his father comes on the trips and sleeps with the patrol, how does that help the scout in the long run grow?

I have to say i had the same reaction to that original topic concerning a mother attending every trip until her son was 16.

It is important that scouts in the BSA learn self reliance and become able to function and make decisions without their parents around or direct input. We are teaching them to become young men capable of life without mom and dad. It is hard to become self reliant with mom and dad always there, which, in the real world, isnt always going to be the case.

Yes, the BSA can not forbid parents to go on any trip. A long while ago i mentioned that our troop tries to have the scouts attend at least 2 trips before dad comes along and after that its great to have parent involvment, but this is not a policy, its just recomended. The reason is becase it forces to new scout to look toward his patrol leader for assistance instead of running to dad's tent when he needs his sleepbag stuffed and vice versa it helps with mom and dad cope with not being the one there to do it, both which prove difficult tasks when dad is around from the get go but later on the scout avoids his father. Bob White loves this.

The way we did it is everyone had seperate clothing just for sleeping to eliminate getting cold from damp sweaty clothes. For us we all used thermol underwear which allowed us to all have bags of around 30-35 degrees because the thermols allowed for 10 degrees less, plus having some insulation between the sleepingbag and the tent floor also helps. I dont remember a night being cold but a few where i was warm and took off my thermol top.

Our troop does almost all backpacking, with the exception of a ski trip. If we can work in a way to backpack on a trip we do it.

By just asking this question makes me think yu need to do a lot of prep work before yu go out to Philmont. A weekend hike is not a Philmont trek.

"Take advantage of this unique opportunity"

Actually dont.

If your troop is heading out to "scouting paradise", otherwise known as Philmont, there is no greater advice to be heard then AVOID THE BURRO'S at all cost.

This used to be an easy thing. Up until this year, a crew had the option of just saying no when offered the Burro Packing. Now it is mandatory, although it is only stated in one piece of literature Philmont sends you, page 12 of the Itinerary list, a small blurb. Not in the 2005 handbook. The reason? Its bothersome for the Philmont staff to have to bring them from one camp to the next, so they have paying campers do it.

Crews pick up burros in either Miranda or Ponil. There are a few problems in this. First of all, its not a one day thing, its a two day thing, so the crews have to drop them off at Pueblano campsite. Another reason this is a problem is because quite often crews that are forced to take these burros are not staying in Miranda, Ponil or Peublano Camps but rather up to a mile and a half uphill away. This means that the crew must walk a mile and a half out of the way to either pick them up or drop them off. Now a mile or more isnt that much when you are doing a typical or rugged trek, but when you are hiking a trek 20 or above, strenuous or super strenuous these 1.5 miles out of the way add up. Third major reason why this is a big problem, they do not even try to accommodate time constraints. Crews are informed to meet at the Burro pen at 9 am. Instructions begin around 9:30 when all scheduled crews are present. The crews do not depart until around 10:30 am.

On burroless days we were out on the trail by 6am and done with 12 mile hikes by 12pm. after lunch the mercury shoots up and the burros roads offer little to no shade. Without a burro this would be quite unpleasant, but with a Burro...

The fourth and biggest reason why the Burros are to be avoided: They often dont want to move at all. Sometimes that burro decides he is done walking and when he has got that in his mind there is nothing you can do to get him walking until he wants to. this will turn a hike that would have taken 2 hours into an all day event.

The first day our crew walked from Ponil to Pueblano, about 4 miles flat and didnt get there until 3pm. The second morning we saddled him and for 2 hours he moved only 40 yards.

This is a major drain of energy and moral. The burro days were brutal on the scouts spirits. Add to this the fact that because A)They were not released from burro instruction until 10:30 and B) they got to the camp at 3, the crew missed program. "Oh thats ok," the camp staff said, "we can write ya'll up for a 10 am climb." but we had burros the next day as well and 6 miles to go. That made that suggestion totally illogical.

Our crews picked treks 30 and 32. Part of the selling point was the chance to hike Wilson Mesa, outside the scout ranch, one of the hardest climbs to do and one of the best places in terms of visual splendor. Philmont Logistics just shrugged. "You have to take the burros. Sorry. Maybe you can side hike it." Had we attempted a side hike we would have not begun that side hike until 3:30pm that day which means our boys would not be setting up camp till at least 6:00pm, and after hiking in the open sun for almost 4 hours and a brutal pace they were in no shape to climb the mesa.

Miranda is a wonderful campsite, an amazing view pf baldy and a neat program, but its also a great place for advisors to get together and chat at "Advisor Coffee". There are two subjects: A) Baldy: Have you done it yet?" or "How was is?" and B) Burros. No crew that we or our sister crew ever encountered had a positive encounter with the burro packing program. One crew, at 7:30 pm showed up at Miranda to drop off the burro. They were camping more then a mile up the path and about 900 feet higher in elevation and they were instructed that the burro pen was "just down the path" by the staff. Those Adults that knew where it was looked at each other and then regarded these guys with pity, for we knew that "Down the path" was still 3/4ths of a mile, down hill all the way and that these guys had still to make that climb back up plus the mile uphill FROM this campsite to make dinner, not to mention they had to climb the 12,441 foot Baldy the next day. When we saw them coming back up it reminded us of what the Tarawa death march guys must have looked like. They were spent and asking themselves why they had shelled out cash to come there.

Dont try to find an easier way. Logistics and the wranglers dont want to hear it.

"Can we pick up the burros earlier in the day?"

"No."

"Can we just take the burro without the saddle if we dont even plan on putting any gear on the burro?"

"No."

"Can we split up so that 2 adults take the kids who want to do Wilson Mesa and 2 adults stay back with the burro and any who care to do it?"

"Not a chance."

"Can we just not do the burros?"

"You can, but then you will see what happens." (Im not kidding. This was the reply. The Ponil Camp Director, a cowboy named Gordon that smiled a plastic grin the whole time would not directly say the result of skipping the burros, but we found out that when we came back into base camp we would have been refused the Philmont Arrowhead patch and warned that to do so again would result in us not being accepted back. In fact Gordon would not let the boys pick up their food from the commissary until the crew leader promised to take the burros.)

In 1998 a troop, fed up with their burro led it off a cliff to its death. This very summer a burro broke its leg walking through a creak and had to be put down.

You only have two options, pick a trek that does not offer burros, or prepare to write 2 days of your 12 day trek and work hard to build back the spirit of the boys.

Anyone here have any Burro Horror stories to share?

"Those are all very good observations. My son is in pretty good shape and has never had any trouble at all with 10 mile hikes. However, this is ten 10 mile hikes!"

dont forget this is also at a high elevation and with large elevation changes. Your son and all those that are going to philmont should have been and are still doing solid training. Our troop leaves saturday for Philmont and we have been training for over a year.

Meamemg- yes unless the extend of the PL's ineptitude was so great that the adult leaders would have to step in.

in a democratic system, a true one, when one elected leader does not preform up to task he doesnt win a re-election. We have had a few poor PLs that just couldnt get a second term. The boys are aware of who is doing what and how well they are doing it.

there are recommended weight limitations for philmont. A guy 6'4" is recommended to be in the range of 156-222 according to the official Philmont Med form. (have you not recieved this yet?!?) The issue of being as under weight as he is can cause medical issues and may be brought up during the health check at base camp.

I never ask another person, youth or adult to do something that i am not willing to do myself. Lead by example is vital in life and scouting. Last weekend,while on a trip i wanted to check out a lean-to that was only 50 yards from our campsite, but i took along some scouts. At summer camp we have our boys in the buddy system as in every scouting activity, and I as an adult follow our own rules.

Self-reliance is a huge part of the program in my veiw and there are many ways in which to teach it. The patrol method is a great way for the youth to learn it and the first steps in teaching self relaince is to teach them to be able to not need to rely on adults. "Ask your patrol leader" is a staple in our troop. We also ask parents of new scouts to sit out of the first two camping trips so their son gets accustomed to being away from dad.

The ideas presented by this ASM are interesting but i dont see them as the only way to do it. To do something like this once in a blue moon would be a fun or interesting idea but teamwork and leadership are also major parts of the scouting experience.

I remember as a youth in Maine we would do "solos" where we would be escorted to a secluded area of the woods or small island and given food, water a a few supplies and were to stay there for more then 24 hours, never leaving a designated area and forced to cope with the seclusion of solitude. It was a very interesting and rewarding experience and i passed the time playing with snails and crabs i found along the low tide rocks, doing alot of journal writing and deep thinking. Its something to try but not to force.

Crazy Creek camp chairs. Half our troop including adults have them. we use them on backpack trips like Philmont in place of a sleeping pad. Very light, very comfortable.

we keep a duffel of old patchless uniforms from the 70's in our QM room. When a scout comes without uniform he is to find one that fits from the bag.

well there is a difference between a private film made for movie theaters and news programs airing segments on the "benifits of the new medicare law" as just another story when it was GOP that had paid people to pose as reporters praising it and the veiwers were unaware that they were watching paid advertising funded by taxpayer money. CBS and other channels began to pull it when it and several journalists went under federal investigation.

this scout fixation on BDU's and camo has got to be a rural thing. 15 years of scouting ive never seen a kid bring them on e trip.

Prairie pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

as for the media, objectivity has long ago been forgotten, afterall its hard to be objective when your income in large comes from big time corporations advertisments that support one side or the other. Compound this by the fact that the FCC has become a tool of the republican party and the current president, during his re-election campain was feeding news programs "news reports" that his party had scripted and filmed to promote the president and selling them as objective news.

As the great comic strip Non-sequitor once said, its not news its "info-tainment"

Badget, how exactly does one canoe while talking on the cell phone or playing gameboy? Why go camping if you absorb yourself in the things you have everyday of your life? The boys can play PSP and listen to 50Cent nearly everyday, but those monthly outings take them to beautiful places around our country that they miss if there noses are buried in a portable instant messenger and their ears clogged with hiphop. Are your campouts that boring?

"As to your question - It's simply a double-standard that the media (yes, the liberal media) has been employing since the early seventies. They've made it their job to portray Republicans in the worst possible light. And more recently, they seem to turn a blind eye to even the most inane comments and actions made by liberals."

Lets be honest here, two words: Fox News.

Politicians in every party say and do stupid things and all the subjective medias decide how they want to spin it. remember, when you point your finger at someone you are pointing three back at yourself.

well, as a white christian male, are you outraged to be grouped with republicans? Honestly, its no different then the countless other politicians since the dawn of politics, and VP Dick Cheney has been spitting back all along. Also, its probably safe to say that MOST republicans are white and chirstian and the G W Bush republicans are becoming a seperate party then the republicans, how long can that course maintain before there is a division in the GOP?