DugNevius

i cant understand why reading would be banned. or even that scouts must wear ponchos instead of rain gear.(This message has been edited by DugNevius)

i would have him go to his patrol leader.

i pack everything in ziplock plastic bags and also use a pack cover for double protection. then i just hang it on a branch. no way any of that is getting wet.

Is suspending him really going to change his attitude? From my experience, those scouts that are constant discipline issues dont ever change their attitude until THEY want to. Sometimes it never happens and eventualy the scout is either asked to leave or, more often they just weed themselves out. One scout our SM asked to leave ended up going in and out of prison for petty crimes. Another went to culinary school and got married.

Sometimes, troubled scouts just wake up. We had one boy who was a constant issue. At summer camp he was physically hurting his bunkmate. At meetings he was constantly disrubtive. I believed that his boy would never make it to the rank of star. We are going to philmont this summer. Last march we went on a training hike and this boy just broke down. He hadnt brought he required gear, fell into a lake to get soaked and with 5+ miles to go began to walk at a brutally slow pace. At the end of this trip we had to have a meeting with him and inform him because of his terribly poor mental attitude and his preformance on that trip he was on the verge of being cut. He didnt go to summer camp. This semptember as we regrouped this scout was a changed boy. He worked with scouts to get them advanced, he got Star, won an election to be a PL for the new scouts, led them to second place in our troop olympics. For Philmont, when we needed a scout to switch from one crew to the other he vollunteered. Last month he was made assistant crew leader. This past weekend, when his crew leader became too ill to go on a hike he took over and did well in his place. in 2 weeks, at our pot luck dinner, he will be given scout of the year. Im banking he gets eagle.

sometimes the troubled scouts wake up and realize, life is much better when people are on your side, if yu win them over with the right attitude. Sometimes they realize they would rather be someplace else.

our aspls also hold other positions, Quartermaster, Scribe, Historian and Librarian and make up the Staff patrol, each with specified duties in regards to their position on top of assisting the SPL in any form he may require. The wuarermaster is in charge of all out troop camping equipment. He has his own room in our charter school, which he maintains. He orginizes, prepares, fixes and purchases ourc amping gear. Our Scribe is the webmaster of our troop website and the editor of our monthly paper. Our Librbarian also has his own room, where he keeps track of meritbage and other books, maps, and other equipment not related to camping, and copies of paperwork. The historian is our troop photographer. He photographs all troop activities for the website as well as a photo album that he orginizes labels and catalogs. They are appointed by the elected SPL and approved the the SMs. They fill in for the SPL in his absence and they help guide the PLs, Den Chiefs and other scouts.

There is an insurance (I think)ad that takes place in Africa, where these guys are filming lions and one of them puts on a male lion head and they film him walking up to them as if it was some scientific study to see the reactions ofthe other real lions. I find it hysterical.

like i said Dan, the leatherman Micra is all you will ever need on the trail

http://www.leatherman.com/products/tools/micra/default.asp

haha i know its been done. Im not really hung up on a pocketknife must be carried or can be left out, however, i think having buddy in any outdoor activity like canoeing, backpacking, mountian climbing, etc is an absolute must and essential to following the BSA motto of being prepared. Not having one is a sure fire invitation for a problem.

well i gues if you get injured while hiking solo you can always use the pocket knife to amputate so you can attempt to crawl to saftey.

i understand that the buddy system does not prevent any and all problems, but i think its pretty clear that the buddy system prevents enough problems to warrent it downright essential and part of being prepared.

I also understand that many items of equipment come in small/light sizes, for instance the knife that I and my crew leaders are carrying in Philmont is the Leatherman Micra at 3 ounces, however 3 of these ands a regular leatherman are all we will need.

well SP, one could ask why you would not follow the buddy system while hiking? Hikers should never split up and hike alone. Being prepared, you would have a buddy at all times.

I agree that flashlights are something for each hiker, even though they only need to be used in the tent, but the need for pocket knives in Philmont are very limited, basically cutting up food and rope. 3 knives per crew is more then enough.

"In another topic someone mentioned that everyone in a group going for an extended backpacking trip would have an item so there was no need for him to bring along one. While there are group supplies and personal supplies, I was suprised at what I felt was a personal item would be left behind."

Let me back up Dan here. On many high adventure trips, Philmont included the crew becomes like one entity. This means that not every member of the crew needs to have all the same items (for example 10 people carrying 10 pocket knives, 10 tubes of toothpaste, 10 bottles of sunscrean, etc etc) Instead, the crew simply makes sure there is enough for the crew. So, one person carries a large tube of toothpaste, another carries a large bottle of sunscreen, another carries the TP. Pocketknives out in the wilderness lend to a degree of danger, even if the BSA safety measures are taken. If 2 or 3 guys, the crew leader, his assistant and an Adult advisor carry knives, the chance of injury resulting in evacuation and ruining a fun trip are greatly reduced. 2-3 knives are more then enough for whatever the crew may encounter, thus, the Crew is being prepared and the weight is both lightened and evenly distributed. If there is a crew photographer, not everyone needs to bring a camera. Because the buddy system is always strictly enforced, the number of compasses and maps decrease. One crew, one unit, functions as one.

Dan, what trek are you doing this summer? In 98, we only had one pack over 48 pounds.

what do you want the parents for,exactly?

This past weekend we had some training trips for our summer high adventure treks. One group was the 12 and under crowd thats going out on a 12 day Southwest tour. We happened to be camping in the same site, although each for the 3 crews took a different route to get there. Around dinner time i wandered over to see how the dinner was going for the little guys and was suprised to see a pretty extravagant meal for a backpacking trip and found it odd that the crew leader was barely eating because he said it tasted gross. This was odd because he was supposed to be the one who planned and carried out the meal.

So i went to an adult advisor and asked him about the meal. "Its great" he told me. I asked him who made it. "It was a team effort." he replied, and to that i voiced my surprise that these guys made such a extravagant meal. "Oh no," he answered. "The adults made it."

Well, i wasnt happy. He informed me that they decided since out west the adults would cook the meals they should practice on our training treks. I put the squash on that one right quick. Thats not going to happen in my troop with or without me on their trek. Adults should hardly ever do ANY of the cooking. We only allow that once a year for the Xmas trip as a treat. Sometimes adults need to cowboy up and let the boys do their job and not worry about if its perfect and yummy. It teaches them valuble skills like teamwork, leadership and self reliance that are MUSTS in boyscouting and it keeps them busy and out of trouble.

an additional thing an adult patrol can serve would be to keep the dads busy and away from their sons, allowing the scouts to turn to the PL and learn to rely on him, also removing the temptation for adults to do the scouts jobs.

High Adventure trip of 7 days or more.

The dad has good reason to be upset. Where was the teamwork and leadership here? It was absent. If there is only so much food everyone gets less but everyone eats. This was poor planning bythe PL and the PL didnt step up and look out for his scouts. The SM and ASMs need to have a talk with the PL and make sure he undserstands how and where he dropped the ball and to make sure it doesnt happen again.

im curious on how/why this scout is "weak on leadership" and also what relation Rour is, SM, parent or spiteful peer.

You are right, SP, i did not add that we also recommend the Thunderlight parka pants and that the scouts bring them in place of regular pants (On hikes) to have a nifty 2-in-1 and save space and weight. Campmor also has cheaper parkas and pants around the $15 range, and for some reason the website lists the prices of the Thunderlights $15 more then what is found in the store. The reason i have them grab the parkas is the durability of the product, $10 or less ponchos dont last as long, where as my Parka has been going strong for 9 years and two high adventure trips (Philmont 98) and will be going again this summer. Also, personally, i feel ponchos limit my ability to do certain things as well as dont provide enough protection. It comes with a hood and im always rocking the trucker hat.

On a side note, tomorrow we will be on a Philmont training trip and the forcast is rain followed by more rain with a side order of PM rain. Fun fun.

well, 2 reasons Beav. First, the age of boys we are talking about are the very growth ages of boys: 12-18. Im almost 27. My scoutmaster, who took over in 1991 was 22 and in 10 years: 3 high adventure trips, increased the size of the troop by 3 times, and 3 high adventure trips. Secondly, I am merely continuing the program and aim in which my scoutmaster did before me for 10 years and what his did for 37, changing very little. We are having loads of success. I have found no trouble in expecting them to meet the standards achieved by the many Eagles in our troops history, not being complacent about whether or not our Eagles live the by scout Oath and Law, always lead by example and are leaders of their generation. Since we are not having any issues with these i am perfectly content with the direction in which we are going, but when i do have questions, ill be happy to ask away to those "old goats" who have been trained scouters for longer then i have been alive. You are a young troop, i wish you all nothing but success in forging your own history, tradition and the standards in which you measure your Eagles.

we would only cancel a trip it the weather posed a safety probelm.

Tarps always, first thing up, last thing down. http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=12168&memberId=12500226

We recommend to our boys to avoid ponchos. The rain gear i have our boys grab is the Campmor Thunderlight parka.

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=3192609&memberId=12500226

Beaver, I never said scouts will be perfect the minute they get into a POR. That is why an Adult, secificly an ASM should work as an advisor to the scouts in a POR particularly to help develop the leaders. However, if you set a standard you will find that the boys will work to achieve it. Also, By Leading By Example the leaders show the younger scouts these skills are important and they KNOW that they need to be on time for trips, orginized for meetings, accountable for their actions. 6 times a year we meet with our boys in POR and have open ended evaluations to talk about the things they are doing well and the areas they need to approve. We dont sit back an hope that they will gain these things but be content if they never do. While you may think we are "a rogue unit" or too harsh, i similarly can get the impression that you are complacement. Im not saying you are.

"If we penalized every boy who shows up late, we wouldn't have a troop. I realize the expectations of a 17 year old are different than that of a 12 year old. We have one boy that IF he shows up, it is always about 20 to 30 minutes late. It is out of his control, it all depends on when his grandfather gets him there. I'd rather have him there for an hour of an hour and half than not at all. You never mentioned if the MB/SM asked for a reason for the scout being late. What if he was rushing from a job or sports practice? What if he was held up at a train crossing? There are valid reasons people are late. It is not always because they are lazy or irresponsible."

There ARE valid reasons to be late, HOWEVER all a person needs to do is to call ahead and let those waiting know that they will be late. Its simple courteousy. A scout is courteous. "Hey, I am running a bit late." Thats all it takes.

I have to ask you, if the boy is always late because he relies on his grandfather why hasnt anyone offered a car pool so that he can get there on time? I have a scout who lives with his grandparents, and they are always MIA, so for every event on the calander another scout's father picks him up and drops him off. Plan ahead, be orginized.

And my age hasnt a thing to do with anything.

Barry, you seem to think that having Eagles be respectful, orginized, on time and the rest are both unecessary and takes away from the uniqueness of the individual, and that if every scout had all these characteristics they would all be clones. I dont see how you can think this way. Being orginized, focused, motivated doesnt take away from anything. Some scouts take MORE initiative then others. They just need to take intiative. They dont have to be anal, but they need to have some order. They dont need to be robotic, but they need to be driven.

By installing these qualities it does not by no means replace personality. I dont see the confusion. None of these are officially part of the scout law, but the Law is vague and open for interpretation and an argument can be made that each of these are included in either the Law or the requirements themselves: Couteous, Helpful, Kind... "Leading By example" is as important an axiom as "Be Prepared", and vital to comleting the requirment of POR. If a scout in a POR isnt Leading By Example, by being on time to events, having a plan ready and carrying it out, being accountable when making a mistake, being focused on the task at hand, taking initiative to getting things done, then the scouts in his lead are not going to be doing so as well, there is no order and therefore the scout is not LEADING.

Let me make this clear, i, the current scoutmaster, any other assistant scoutmaster, or my scoutmaster from the past have not had a scout finish every requirment and held the kid back because he was not one of these things. It just is that by the time every Eagle since 1989 have been all of these things, because it was expected of us as we grew older, got closer to eagle and took on leadership positions. There were times when some of us were late in the 8 years of scouting, times were we didnt take initiative, but developed through time we all became them. 16 eagle scouts since i joined scouting, all these things, but none clones of our Scoutmasters, all very different guys.

Not every troop is as demanding and that doesnt mean that their eagles are not as qualified. Sometimes however, just the minimum requirments doesnt really produce the same result. For instance, Reading BurnsCrewAdvisors post about that young by, i dont see any initiative at all, i see a father pushing his scout and the boy gaining nothing from it. I dont see how a 9 year old boy can put together an Eagle Project before he even joins a scout troop. That is a father doing half the work. ComitteeChair seems to see a similar thing, as do a few others. I remember a scout in a nearby troop that had every meritbadge he needed to for eagle at 12, but it just so happens his father, the SM was the one who signed off nearly all of them. Not my troop, not my concern, but maybe the bar needs to be officaly raised here.

Hunt, i can undertstand the SMs reaction being to harsh if the boy was say 12, but 10 days shy of 18 is a bit different. The scout, my friend and Assistant for 5 years had waited only a week until his birthday to get these merit badges. It is the responsability of the scouts to earn them, not he adult leaders or parents and that includes making the appointment for the merit badges and being courteous of the counselors' time. The scout needs the counsler, not the other way around. If it were important to the scout (my friend) he a) would not wait till the last second and b) not have been late to the meeting with at least a call to heads up. I dont think the SM did anything wrong in seeking the respect of the scout, neither did the scouts parents or the scout (after he had calmed down)

lastly, Lead By example. I do everything in my power to be and do these things i am talking about, as do the SM, ASM and Comittee members, past and present. It is not asking too much at all, to expect that the boys do so in return. Otherwise they are not being respectful, and therefore courteous.

1)The camping/high adventure program

2)The Eagle program

3)The facilities used by the troop

4)The size (Not too big, not too small)

5)The history

6)The patrol selection process

7)The Adult leadership

As a matter of fact, My SM was named Doug. Pure coincidence.

It seems to me that you may feel that our expectations are too harsh, but i dont feel they are unrealistic at all. I never knew of any parent that believed the standards in which their son was pressed to meet for Eagle were to hard at all and I dont hear that from the parents today.

Eagle isnt just the next rank after life, the 7th rank. Its something more then that, it represents the very pinnacle of the youth in the BSA program, the best of the best. While Boy Scouts prepares boy to succeed in life, Eagle scouts are built to excel beyond their peers. When an Eagle scout applies to a job or school or group and he writes down Eagle on the application, that is not to show that the Eagle can tie knots blindfolded but rather has these things im speaking of.

An Eagle is not flawless and makes mistakes, but he is ACCOUNTABLE for the mistakes he makes and owns up to them. When an Eagle COMMITS to something he sticks to it no matter if something more desirable temps him, his priorities are in order. An Eagle takes INITATIVE when things need to get done, he doesnt wait for someone to tell him what to do. An Eagle is PUNCTUAL because he is courteous of other people's time and respectful of those he plans on meeting. An Eagle is ASSERTIVE; he speaks his mind and lets others know what needs to get done, without being bossy or rude. An Eagle is FOCUSED; he doesnt waste his or other peoples time needlessly. An Eagle is MOTIVATED, he sets goals and he strives to accomplish them until he does so. An Eagle is CREATIVE, he has the ability to improvise when needed, and hes not a robot. An Eagle is ORGINIZED; he prepares ahead of time and carries out his plan. An Eagle is a LEADER, he guides a team or group to success, and when they succeed he allows the team to take the credit and when the fail he solely takes the blame. An Eagle LEADS BY EXAMPLE, because he can not expect others to do what he himself does not. These things are not a part of the Scout Law or a merit badge but these are what set these 3% apart from the rest of the scouts and non scouts of their generations. None of these take away from the youth's identity and personality. Every one of these can be achieved by anyone, mentally challenged or not. This is what we should strive to instill on our boys as they try to become Eagles. An Eagle can not be an Eagle and not be any of these things, or else hes simply an Eagle on paper. One Eagle may be much more organized then another or much more creative, but they all possess levels of these and other traits.

We arent setting actions instead of behaviors by expecting those boys that strive to be eagle to be these things. Its no different then when they are learning to tie a knot. When they get the knot wrong you let them know and explain how to do it right. If they get it wrong again you let them know and explain again. And again, and again, sometimes in different ways, until they get it right and they know the knot so well they can tie it blind folded. Punctuality, accountability, organization or any of those things are no different. These things are not restricted against any boy whether he is mentally challenged, handicapped in any other way or perfectly normal. If a 13 year old has all of these qualities then he is ready to be an Eagle. But those 13 year olds are very rare.