DugNevius

Yes.

Well clearly the lack of experienced leadership and older scouts was a large part of the problem here. This seems to be an example against patrols by age and rank.

"Rape - it may well be an act of violence. Amd who knows what inspires pedophiles and other perverts. But let's not play games here. It's well known amongst law enforcement, and it should be common knowledge by now - these idiots usually have closets (or computers) loaded with pornography."

yes but nude photography can not be proven to cause any violence at all. There is no scientific evidence that seeing nude women CAUSE men to become violent, but rather violent men have it already inherent in them. The FBI agrees that nude images dont cause sex crimes. This is a false cause argument here. Millions of grown men all over the country have looked at nude photographs without ever harming another person, and its probably safe to say that most of us on this very website have seen a naked women,but how many of us are rapists? This argument is no different then saying all scout leaders are into child Porn and pedophilia because a small percentage in history have been like Douglas Smith.

Mr Z's possession of a playboy is in no way at all any indicator that he is dangerous to anyone.(This message has been edited by DugNevius)

Von Dutch

i used to always wear a Miami Hurricanes hat. I wasnt a fan of the team at all. When i was 10 i told a relative wanted a Florida Gators hat because i liked alligators. They made a mistake and got me Miami. Up until 11th grade i always had a miami hurricanes hat, one after another.

I also like scullies, or beanies or gobalines... how ever yu call a knit wool hat.

"Do you believe your own logic? do you believe that Homosexuality is not really all that immoral? Do you think that choices can only be free when they are unpredictable?"

Do i believe it? It is logic, therefore mathmatics so its not really up to belief. If you add 2+2 it will always equal 4. If God is Perfect then there is no free will. If there is free will then there is no perfect God.

Do i know which exists, a perfect God or free will? No. I dont possess perfect knowledge. I lean towards the Free Will paradigm.

Do i think homosexuality is immoral, no. I dont buy into any blanket statements aboyt any people, but race, religion, nationality or sexuality and feel they are the tools of ignorance. There may be, and are, immoral homosexuals just as there may be and are immoral heterosexual people. I also think so many people are quick to judge and dont have the right to do so. Homosexuality does not effect anyone other then the homosexuals. It is like disliking the color someone paints their bedroom.

Heres a little bit about faith. Faith is used to explain the unexplainable, including contradictions, but it can never be used as a premise for an argument because it is total and complete subjectivity. I can have faith that 2+2 equals 5. It can be proved mathmatically and logically that this is an impossibility but i can still believe it. However, i can not argue using false mathmatics.

This here is an argument concerning Homosexuals and Atheists in the BSA and for an argument to be valid its premises must also be valid. The argument of faith is as follows:

-homosexuality and Atheism is a sin

-sins are immoral

-Homosexuality is immoral because i believe it is.

-I believe homosexuality is wrong because my faith tells me so.

-My faith tells me so because i believe it is so.

-I believe it is so because my faith tells me so.

and so on...

One persons faith is no more valid in an argument then the faith of another that contradicts it. If person A has the faith that homosexuals are immoral it is no more valid then person B who has the faith that homosexuals are not immoral. If 1000 people agree with person A, and no one agrees with person B, it is still even.

Now, eliminate faith, the all to easy one word solution to questions in which the answer is difficult, and an invalid premise to an argument and then explain why homosexuality is wrong.

Some in this topic have tried this. With Blanket statements.

(This message has been edited by DugNevius)

This is all on topic.

"Im failing to see how knowing someones choice makes it any less of a choice for them. If God knows what I will choose, by all means the adventure of the choice is still there for me. Im still responsible for making the choice, and I certainly still have to go through much mental deliberation to make some of them. I think we need to point out the difference between knowledge of someones choice and control of it."

If God KNOWS what yu will do, can you do something different and he still be right? No.

That means that there was no alternative. Because:

-If people have Free Will they can make choices freely

-If people can make choices freely they can decide between alternatives

-If there are NO alternatives, no choice is possible

So no choice was possible, the ONLY alternative was the one that God has forseen.

So, in the case of homosexuality, those that are Gay do not have a choice in it at all. Everything has been Predetermined and part of God's master plan and not immoral (Definition: A violation of God's principals) because God is the creater of all things and actions.

If God is Perfect, then Homosexuality is not a sin nor is it immoral.

If human's can not judge the perfection of God then they can not understand fully ANYTHING related to God, including morality, and therefor NOTHING is defined.

If nothing can be defined then nothing is immoral, and that would therefore include Homosexuality.

Is a rapist immoral? yes. But there is no evidence that nude photographs cause people to rape, but in fact that man in your example had pre-existing issues and immoralities that would cause him to rape and there is nothing to say that going to the beach wouldnt cause the same reaction, or walking in the park.

"Assuming that if one person has free will... if you know how your wife will react to something does that take away from the freedom of choice she exercises in reacting that way?"

If you possess perfect knoweldge like some people claim God to have, then you know exactly what your wife will chose. If you are going to Mc Donalds and yu have Perfect knowledge and know she will chose the Big Mac, she will never prove you wrong by getting McNuggets, she will always pick Big Mac if you know that she will, no matter the time of day or dimension she is in. She has no choice, and as a rule the absence of choice is the absense to choose. If she were to pick something other then what you knew she would, then you dont possess Perfect Knowledge.

God being Good, Great or bad is not the debate here and has no bareing on the debate.Its not about his charactor, Its Free Will vs a Perfect God.

haha Well, he could just have it because of the articles.

I dont find having a magazine like playboy to be immorral. First of all it is legal and no law is broken. Second of all it does not cause harm to anyone.

That is the line between a Playboy, Penthouse or even a Hustler- and Nambla or Child porn. Child porn is against the law, the children photographed are not of the age of consent and are being violated, and Nambla is an orginization that promotes gay pedophilia which is also against the law.(This message has been edited by DugNevius)

a ha, ScoutNerd, but yu realize that both yur examples are flawed.

"Keeping this in mind God lets us have free will, lets us make our own choices. Just because He knows the outcome doesn't make it any less of an adventure/challenge/choice for us."

He knows the outcome. He is not wrong. So you will not do something other then the exact choice he has already forseen. It does not make it less of an adventure, but it DOES make it not a choice. You will always do exactly what he has foreseen.

" He created us. He knows us better than our parents/spouse/kids do, better than we do. (You said yourself that we're assuming God's knowledge is perfect, which I heartily agree with). Because of that, He know's how we'll react when presented with any choice. The choice is not of a required answer variety, but God still knows how we'll respond."

He knows how we will react. Again this only further illustrates the idea i have proposed here, that there was no free will at all.

Ed, Faith is the simple answer the explain simple contradictions. Its sweeping the dirt under the rug. The dirt is still there, even if you ignore it. If you close your eyes the trees and the birds and the earth is still there. So closing your eyes doesnt get rid of the trees and the birds and the earth.

The study of Logic is mathmatical. The absense of logic is chaos, and therefore there is no rule. To eliminate Logic from the discussion of Homosexuality in BSA means there are no rules and therefore it can not be argued either that Homosexuality is wrong or right.

"Freedom is the knowledge of Necessity."

Ok, Ed and ScoutNerd. Now let us apply a little Left Brain Logic to the table.

First, some definitions.

Free will: The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

Perfect: Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.

I think its safe to assume we can agree on these definitions, right?

So, now we shall add Logic to it all. See if you can follow along here.

You agree that: People have free will. Therefore this logic follows.

-People have Free Will

-If people have Free Will they can make choices freely

-If people can make choices freely they can decide between alternatives

-If there are NO alternatives, no choice is possible

So, to say People have free will you are agreeing with what is stated above.

Now, onto God.

You agree that: God is perfect. Therefore this logic follows.

-God is Perfect

-If God is Perfect, then Gods knowledge is Perfect

-If Gods knowledge is Perfect then God knows everything

-If God knows everything then he knows what everything will do

-If God knows what I will do, and Gods knowledge is Perfect then I will not do anything except what God already knows I will do.

-If I will only do what God already knows what I will do, then I dont have a choice.

See the contradiction here?

Let me explain further. When applying logic to the statements God is Perfect (G) and People have Free Will (W) you discover that both can not be true. Either God is NOT Perfect (~G) or People dont have Free Will (~W) The Logical equation of this is

G v W. If G = true, then ~W=true or If W=true, then ~G=true.

As much as we would like to, we cant have both to be true.

If God knows what we will do and he is perfect we are NOT going to chose anything but what God expects us to chose. We dont have a choice. Otherwise, he is not perfect. If we chose something other then what he thought we would chose, then he was wrong and a Perfect God is never wrong. We dont have a choice in anything. Its all predetermined.

For example, God told Adam and Eve not to eat the apple from his tree. If God is all knowing (a perfect God) he already knew that Adam and Eve would eat the apple. It was IMPOSSIBLE for them NOT to eat the apple, and therefore they really didnt have any choice. Ad they never eaten the apple, God would have been wrong and Imperfect. If God didnt know what they would do, then God is Imperfect.

Its a contradiction that is ignored in faith.

Lets now apply this logic to this debate. Homosexuality is immoral. Homosexuality is a sin. Homosexuality is a violation to the idea of each human having a duty to God. Homosexuality is a choice.

But wait a minute. God is perfect.

So God knew that these people would be gay, well before they ever existed. If he was Perfect he did. They never had a choice in the matter. Sin is based on choice, the decision to act against Gods will. But if human beings cant choose then it was not their fault a sin was committed. If a Perfect Creator created everything, and Free will is eliminated because God is Perfect, then God created Homosexuals therefore they did not and are not a violation of his Will, because it is by his Will that they are exactly the way they are. This means that homosexuals are not immoral, a sin or a choice.

If not, Then God is imperfect.

Hmm... Busy ladies response in the other post about Homosexuality being a sin not to condone, and a few other members who are using the Duty to God and Morally bankrupt lifestyle have led me the think a Logical Experiment is needed.

You all believe in God. After all a scout is reverant.

But answer me this, first, Ed, Busylady, BW and anyone else:

Is God all Knowing or is he flawed?

Do you believe in Free Will?

Well Eamonn, how would you propose to fix those issues? And please be more specific then just saying "training", around here that seems to be the easy answer out of a lot of issues.

Why? What are they doing instead? What do your camperees have to offer?

um... No response?

Eamon- "I feel that most of the Troops in the District I serve do not live up to the promise made in the Boy Scout Handbook."

How so?

Personally, i think some variety is good. Have a core and build upon it. Not every boy10-18 is the same and having different programs that all teach the same morals and skills allows for more appeal throughout the community. Some troops love to attend Camperees, Jamberees and Winter Klondikes. Our troop would rather do more hard core backpacking, play more sports and be a little bit more competitive then some troops. Another troop in our area never backpacks at all but rather hgead south to the florida keys. Some troops are merit badge mills. Some troops like to eat in a mess hall at summer camp some dont. You will never catch me wearing a red beret but if you like it then thats fine with me. Vareity is the spice of life. Broaden the appeal but keep the core and heart of scouting.

sorry UG, but you jumped the gun.

Eagledad- "It doesn't matter what religian one is, the BSA wants role models that represent those values."

Yes, but the whole point of this topic was the hypothetical situation where the BSA had changed its veiws in regards to allowing Atheism and homosexuality not conflict with BSA principals, therefore leaving it up to each scouter to make a decision:"Do i stay or do i go?" Therefore the arguement against Atheists can not be made with a premise against that claims its a violation of policy. This leaves the reasoning being that atheists will try to influence scouts to disbelieve the faith that they were raised.

But a few have stated that Atheists have nothing to sell. That creates an irony to their reasoning.

Now, it is my belief that no group of people, be it atheists, homosexuals, christians, Muslims, Hindus, neoplatonists or any other group or race can ever be accuratly described and labeled by blanket statements, rather it is the individuals who must be scrutinized. All priests are not child molesters. There are many people of strong religious faith that are immoral and likewise there are many homosexual and Atheist people that are much more moral then their religious and heterosexual counterparts. There are many trained scoutmasters that are still not that good. FDR was a decent president.Blanket statements are the tools of the ignorant. Atheists are no more likely to attempt to convert kids on a camping trip then Roman Catholics, Baptists, Mormon, Muslims, Jews, and other religions and ANY scoutmaster that uses his position in authority, no matter the faith or lack of, to persuade any scout of any faith has sadly overstepped his rights.

The topic is: What would you do if Reverant was changed to Thoughtful, if atheists and homosexual adults who passed background checks and the youth protection program, were allowed to be a part of the BSA?

If this was so, the "lifeguard who didn't believe in swimming." arguement is no longer applicable.

No, publicity is always a good thing. Especially since the only national publicity is when guys like Douglas Smith gets into the news. What is publicised would need to be thought out first.

Interesting musing to have while cutting wood. When im using a chainsaw im usually thinking "Dont cut off a leg, that will totally cramp your dancing."(This message has been edited by DugNevius)

Interesting idea, but in a country of... how many millions? is it all that feasable to have a program that is totally universal? There may be a level of continuity to achieve for but total collective of all things seems to be a pipedream. After all, every school doesnt have the same cirriculum, every state doesnt have the same laws, every family doesnt have the same principals and every child doesnt have the same needs, etc etc... As we all know, you cant please anyone and people will all disagree (This website's Issues and Politics not evidence of that?) and so by and large there needs to be flexability with a core as a focus.

I must agree you did the right thing.

for us in similar circumstances the reprimand was spread evenly throughout the scouts involved. When an unnamed scout vandleized a tent all the scouts inside the tent had to share the cost of replacment. If 10 boys were in the same room, 10 share responsability, because as scouts and (im assuming) scouts in leadership positions it is their duty to lead and act as scouts and part of that includes a level of governing each other, being trustworth and obedient, and showing respect. If the one or two scouts dont step forward the unit takes the heat. That could be paying to cost to replace damage and/or a service project.

One way to avoid this in the future would be to have 1 or more of the 4 adults back in camp be around 10 of the 14 scouts in camp.(This message has been edited by DugNevius)

Having an opinion that is in conflict with the opinion of Bob White is not irreverent.(This message has been edited by DugNevius)

" just can't even imagine what the motivation would be to spend money to convert people toward No god. Getting to sleep in on Sundays? Scripture calls out Christains and LDS to seek new followers. Passionate followers will of course spend their money to use the most modern methods they can afford to follow Gods word."

" What exactly would they offer as benefits that would persuade a believer to change? Holidays? Retirement benefits? Healthcare?, A big Club house to meet in? Family outings?, Catching songs? Those are just a few things that faith and religion offer. What have you got?"

Haha. Interesting.

So, if its pretty silly to try to sell atheism to christians... WHY are so many people so scared of having an atheist around their christian kids? Afterall, there are "no benifits" to being an atheist. This doesnt strike you at all to be a bit absurd???? You are convinced it is a pointless effort for atheists to promote their beliefs, but you dont want kids around them because they will promote their beliefs... despite the fact that its pointless.

And for the record, i am not an atheist.

Bob, you have it backwards. TV programs dont buy commercials, advertisers pay for time on TV and radio. The LDS paid for their time. My point is Atheists arent buying airtime to convert anyone.

To me it seems a bit egocentric for adult leaders to try to convert scout into any faith, be it christianity, islam, judism or atheism. Religious beliefs should be left up to the individual, the parents of the child and religious leader such as Priest, Rabbi or other, and since we scoutmasters are not the parents and religious leaders of the troop it is not our place to preach faiths at all.

Ed, i think you are underestimating the zeal of the Religious Right here. BettyStevens right here on this website is a good example of this. There is a large movement in our society in an effort to promote censorship of non-christian things on the radio, TV and other medias as well as a certain level of accepted racism against Islamic and imigarnt people.

As far as it about ratings, commericals are paid for. The LDS commercials on TV and ratio are not about ratings but advertising a belief system in an effort to convert. Atheists dont advertise on TV or Radio or magazines. Athiests dont knock on peoples doors, thats the Jahova's Witnesses.

Ljnrsu- im actually heading to that campmor store this afternoon to take the new scout families on a shopping spree for their evolution into scouting.

You must all realize though, that the temp ratings for the bags are for when you are in just your knickers and outside. Wearing a pair of thermol underwear adds a lot more warmth and in essence drops the temp rating down 5-10 degrees, the body warmth of tent-mates and a sleeping pad isulation all also allow lower temperatures then the rating of the bag. Therefore, in NJ a 30 degree bag is more then enough for camping all year long unless you are sleeping IN the snow on some winter wilderness survival. When buying a sleeping bag weight should also be a major factor as well as temp rating and cost, and you will find that most bags that are low temp rating are very heavy and those that are not heavy are very expensive. There are many 30-40 F bags that are perfect for backpacking Philmont new mexico and under $100 to buy.