So what specifically would you add and what to delete?

There has been some discussion both here and on the uniform board about rehab of our floundering program.

So BB what specifically would you add and what would you delete?

Will the BSA national insurance policy cover us when we get trampled by the rush to join the ranks?

See my website at www.savescouting.org

30% drop in magazine circulation for boys life.... red flag signal... got to turn this ship around.

I looked at brianbuf's website and there were some interesting ideas, especially regarding updating the merit badges.

However, the idea that people will jump to join Scouting because we reference the mammoth from Ice Age instead of Akela and that we make our uniforms look like athletic uniforms is a bit naive.

Somewhere else on this forum someone mentioned that they wouldn't wear their uniform to school 30 years ago, so this is not a phenomenon of today. One of the questions asked at the two Boards of Review for my last two Eagles was "Would you wear your uniform to school tomorrow and allow the principal to announce that you made Eagle?" Both of my Eagle Scouts, who are really into Scouting and are good scouts both said no. What this says to me is that even though they wouldn't wear the uniform to school they still want to be in scouts for the fun and the things it teaches them. My son won't wear his uniform to school, but he does wear "Class B" shirts from past summer camps.

The "problem" with Scouts today is a combination of things that updating MBs and changing references will do nothing to improve. If a troop or pack is providing an interesting program, the people who are interested in Scouts will participate. Scouts encourages family participation, especially at the Cub level. So many parents today just want to drop their kids off at an event (athletic practice) and then pick them up an hour later that Scouts just isn't conducive to that. Trust me, I coach soccer as well as am a SM and I have seen that.

In addition, a lot of parents nowadays, especially dads, look at sports as their child's way to glory as an adult. I appreciate the teamwork and skills that sports teaches. My younger son plays soccer and basketball and is really into both. My older son is into music and plays with the school band, and that teaches a great deal. There are just certain things that scouts teach that these other activities don't. But if a child and/or parent doesn't believe that then changing uniforms and references/icons are not going to change that.

Sorry I rambled on.

Bill

So what would like to add or delete...how about a simple clarification or be specific..."be active in your troop for 6 months"

None of this 50% or 75% if so then just put it in the requirments, dont leave it to the individual troops to define

NOTE - He asked what SPECIFICALLY you would ADD or DELETE.

Your web page is full of GENERAL complaints & GENERAL comments (update icons is NOT specific). The only info that is in ANY way specific is all stuff that can be found on the BSA National website.

From what I can tell, looking at your website, most of your complaints have ALREADY been, or are in the process of being, addressed by National.

Even though National works s-l-o-w-l-y, it does work. The program we have today is NOT the program as it was when BP created it. There have been changes made. There CONTINUES to be changes made. The handbooks all get updated periodically. Changes are made to rank requirements. Changes are made to programs. Changes are made to uniforms. Changes are made to trainings. Merit Badges are updated, added & deleted on an ongoing basis. National DOES ask for input from it's members. There is a survey out there on the BS Handbook even now.

Contrary to what you claim, even the language of Scouting has changed over the years. However, personally, I am glad that BSA has kept some of the traditional terminology (& so is my son who is a TEENAGE YOUTH member). We rather like Beaver Patrols, Turk's Head knots (one of son's favorites!), & Cracker Barrels!

AS for me - What would I SPECIFICALLY change? I would make training mandatory. I would toss all of those wishy-washy "could's", "should's" & "may's" out and replace them with "must's". I would end ANY thought of a kindergarten Cub Scout. I would find some way of verifying that units are running good programs (other than the Quality Award). I would find some way for councils to be able to afford to offer more specialized programing to units (without taxing their already overtaxed volunteer base) to supplement their in-unit programing. I would do a better job of saturating high impact media areas with great ads (Super Bowl?).

OK, now to come down from "pie in the sky" time. The everyday trappings have little to do with the long term health of the BSA programs. What is needed is for individual units to consistently provide GREAT programs for their boys & for us to let EVERYONE know that these GREAT programs are out there.

I can sit on a 'puter & complain about National. I can loudly bemoan to everyone who will listen that National's membership numbers are dropping like a rock. Or, I can roll up my sleeves, and get to work on MY unit. I can do my best to make sure MY unit is delivering on the promise. I can make sure that MY BOYS are getting the best possible program. I can make sure that MY BOYS are LEARNING, GROWING & having as much FUN as possible along the way.

If every unit does that, the rest will work itself out.

"I would end ANY thought of a kindergarten Cub Scout."

co-signed.

Cub Scouts is already to watered down as it is

>>Define active. Not in generalities but specifics.

>>Required training for all adult leaders.

>>Stop adding stupid rank requirements.

>>Make the Quality Unit award actually mean something.

Gotta agree, Brians web site is nothing more than a blog gone wild. One would think, since this is a WB ticket item, he would have actually done some research & not just accepting the opinions. Poorly done in my opinion.

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

Gotta agree, Brians web site is nothing more than a blog gone wild. One would think, since this is a WB ticket item, he would have actually done some research & not just accepting the opinions. Poorly done in my opinion.

I wonder about this too. Brian wrote that he's completed all 5 ticket items in four weeks. Now I know one's ticket is a personal thing but I don't quite understand how one can develop a ticket towards ones vision and complete it in four weeks. Is his vision that shallow, or is his ticket just that weak? Or perhaps it contains about as much substance as savescouting.com - not much.

I would add that uniforms are required for scouts and scouters. The Boy Scouts is a UNIFORMED youth movement. I believe that when you are outwardly identified as a scout/scouter, you will carry yourself in deeds and actions a lot more readily than in street clothes.

I dont believe that the uniform is any more of an important method than the other 7, but I believe its the easiest method to achieve and maintain, and in my perspective is the the best place to start from in attaining and practicing the other methods.

The answer in uniforms does NOT lie in changing the uniform to some fast food inspired polo shirt style anynonmous image. The boys in the troop I serve in LIKE their uniform shirts and the different insignia on them, granted they dont wear them on every possible occasion, but they do when its specified to worn in conjunction with meetings and suitable scouting activities.

I cant imagine my son or anyone else's son in my troop getting all fired up over a polo shirt, and since when do teenage boys WILLINGLY wear such a shirt?

Several things just on uniforms.

Offer a khaki shirt as suitable for summer wear as the green collerless one of the early 1970s, drop the eplites and sew red patches on the shoulders if you just have to have them, I would do with out as there are enough indicators on the uniform to show what kind of scout or scouter you are.

Offer a heavier weight shirt for cooler weather and night time events, both should be made out of strong, comfortable, wear resistant cloth and sell for less than whats offered now.

Uniform shorts should be long enought to cover the tops of your legs when you are sitting, the ones I saw the other day were almost "hot pants" length.

Do away with the under collar wear of neckerchiefs, if a troop won't wear neckers the right way they can wear bolos, having your neckerchief with you is to Be Prepared.

Declutter the shirt, in the last 30 years the number of items stiched and pinned on seems to have doubled, another sign of the shift away from outdoor activites. The zip off pants are a great sign, just hope they are just the first on a string of improvements.

To sum up, I would love to see a shift back to more of a field uniform and away from what now looks like a dress uniform, a return to all green would mean spots and stains would not stick out so bad either.

Go back to just one scarf for Cub Scouts, that money could help boys who need a shirt.

Turn the way-back machine to 1965?

Do THREE of the following:

Use a database manager to create a troop roster, providing name, rank, patrol, and telephone number of each Scout. Sort the register by rank, by patrol, and alphabetically by name.

Use a spreadsheet program to develop a weekend campout food budget for your patrol.

Use a word processor to write a letter to parents of your troop's Scouts, inviting them to a court of honor. Use the mail merge feature to make a personalized copy of the letter for each family.

Use a computer graphics program to design and draw a campsite plan for your troop

From the computer merit badge requirements. Now there is no web-design there but some parts of the badge are for introductions sake.

The newest merit badge is composite materials. I don't know squat about that but it sounds a little more educational than a NASCAR merit badge. I'm not bad mouthing NASCAR, I just don't get NASCAR. I don't know how they would design a merit badge around a spectator sport. People watch baseball and the average person can play baseball. The Average person cannot drive a stock car.

I have read many accounts of Patrol names that were off the wall. Loco poulet---funky chickens etc. I have no problem with any of that as long as it is kept clean. Some of your focus was on Wood Badge. I would hope that one "gets" it prior to signing up for that. Does OA have some outdated stuff???? I don't know, I am not in AO. But I would think so.

Brian I think we all realize there are problems I just find your website long on complaints and short on substance. As Clara Pellar said for Wendy's, "Where's the beef?"

A skateboarding merit badge? Long ago Baseball was far more popular with boys than skateboarding is today, or ever will be. Was there ever a baseball merit badge? No, it was just something you did.

I like the fact that your site generates interest and dialog. I already said that on the uniform forum, but I disagree with the complaints you have.

Specifically, what new merit badges would you generate that would make us more modern?

I agree with what others have said:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO kindergarten program, make em' wait make em' want to become cubs. Just because public education is looking to have pre-k doesn't mean we have to. Tigers is early enough.

Yes, training is mandatory, might cut down on injuries. Will cut down on poor programs that drive boys away.

Boy's life---Refuse to take any advertisement money from electronic toy makers and junk knife makers.

Boy's life have one old article showing how scouting used to be done. Scouter magazine used to have this there's no reason why some percentage of boys wont enjoy history

Other Ideas:

Make national schools more accessible like Climbing and shooting sports. Bring the Schools to the leaders and considering we all go to summer camp with our boys make the schools two weekends like wood badge. How much vacation time do these people think I get.

I hpop this is not taken as rude---no malice is attached---I just don't agree with you. I think for the most part you are wrong.

Yah, another vote for no kindergarten cubs!

Rethink webelos. It should be a 3-year car-camping outdoor program. Ten years old and 5th grade is too early for some boys to be in Boy Scouting, and way too early for some parents to let go to that extent without wantin' to adult-run the program.

That gets you Cubs 1-2-3 (crafts); Webelos 4-5-6 (camping, personal independence); Scouts 7-8-9-up (outdoor adventure, youth leadership); Venturing 10-11-12-up (high adventure, specialties, young adult coed). No kids' crafts outside of Cubs. No silly songs outside of webelos.

Tone down the awards program at all levels. Fewer and more meaningful. Less is more. Most of the real awards of scouting are the friendships, learning, service, and memories. Don't cheapen those with too many patches.

No mandatory training. Mandatory learning. Leaders at each level must demonstrate personal skills and skills with kids in the "field" environment appropriate for each program.

CO's willing to pay primary leaders in the same way they pay coaches/youth workers at some levels. We all know that Scoutmasterin' is a full-width Guernsey cow compared to a soccer coach toy poodle in terms of time. Yet most of those toy poodles get paid, eh? I know some SM's 'round here who put in more time than the church youth director. Yah. When both parents work, it ain't always possible to get a volunteer who has the time to build experience and learn skills to make a great program. We want 'em to learn, then we want 'em to stay. Pay 'em somethin.

Fire every DE, everywhere. Hire a PR & Communications guy and a professional fundraiser for each council who really know what they're doin. Use the remaining money to hire program support people who can provide regular, ongoing, high-quality supplemental program offerings and unit level training on demand. A cub specialist. A council climbing guy. Whatever. This program stuff is too important and too technical to leave exclusively to high-turnover busy volunteers. Program is what we DO.

Sell Scout Shops. Yah, we can all learn to buy things on-line. Buy camps. No BSA building or land should be retained that doesn't have kids on it, in it, or around it all the time. The SE should have to walk across a field of Pioneering Projects to get to his office every day.

Beat G2SS and the other paperwork back into submission. Safety comes from experience and judgment, not from pages of regulation that few read. Drop restrictions based on anti-gun philosophy; keep only real safety guidelines.

Let CO's determine their own membership and leadership requirements for their units. Very little would change, except that the noise would go down.

Gather all the Timeless Values literature and have a bonfire. At the bonfire, scalp the guy in the suit who came up with it. Spend all our promo dollars on establishing Scouting as the standard for all youth outdoor adventure sports. We should be as visible as Red Bull anywhere adventure is happenin'.

Keep the bonfire/scalping thing as a tradition for anyone else who ever moves our message away from Adventure. Some traditions are important, eh?

Make "customer" satisfaction, program quality, and kid outcomes the primary evaluation tool for everyone who gets so much as a snicker's bar (let alone a salary) from the BSA.

Sell the entire LFL division to McGraw-Hill or some other publisher, or spin it off. Get back to the core business.

Holy cow, Beavah. I had no idea we had so little in common on this subject.

My suggestion would be do the opposite of everything you just said, except for:

"Drop restrictions based on anti-gun philosophy; keep only real safety guidelines." and maybe "Sell the entire LFL division to McGraw-Hill or some other publisher, or spin it off. Get back to the core business."

Keep your hands of our DE's. They are a huge reason we had such a fantastic recruiting season.

Pay volunteers? Are you kidding? Sure, you will get plenty of leaders - plenty of the wrong kind, just out looking for a paycheck. We need passionate leaders, not part-time jobbers.

Close Scout Shops? Tiger parents can't hardly figure out what to buy with the staff holding their hands. When was the last time you purchased $500 worth of awards for a B&G? Do you want to rely on a part-picker in a warehouse to get your order right? Did you ever get it right the first time? Ever make any last minute trips to the shop so Johnny can get the award he just finished a day before B&G?

I think the Timeless Values are extremely important. I much prefer them to the Value of the Moment - which these days would be Me, Me, Me.

Right on Beavah.

I especially like your age/school year groupings.

Get back to adventure. Focus the program around that at every age group.

First, great, thought provoking ideas above. Excellent ideas and discussions. This was my goal. I think many of us are learning by bouncing ideas off this board. Most are playing above board here. And I appreciate it. When you are losing the battle over the message, then you start attacking the messanger. Looks like some folks fear they are loosing the battle so they are attacking me personally, which should never ever happen on a scouting board. SHAME ON THEM!

Gotta agree, Brians web site is nothing more than a blog gone wild. One would think, since this is a WB ticket item, he would have actually done some research & not just accepting the opinions. Poorly done in my opinion. I wonder about this too. Brian wrote that he's completed all 5 ticket items in four weeks. Now I know one's ticket is a personal thing but I don't quite understand how one can develop a ticket towards ones vision and complete it in four weeks. Is his vision that shallow, or is his ticket just that weak? Or perhaps it contains about as much substance as savescouting.com - not much.

This is an attack on me and upon my WB leaders.  I spent many hours (being retired)  in the 4 weeks doing WB non-stop.  But I don't have to answer to you, but to my patrol guide.  How dare you attack him, his judgement regarding my tickets, and our WB scoutmaster's ultimate sign off.  You are DEAD WRONG about them.. and they signed off on my tickets. 

Research.. I have ton.  And it is growing.  Just got some the August membership reports... and for the most part the slide continues.  Perhaps thinking all is well is the shallow thinking here.  Keep to the thread or leave.  Stop attacking the messenger.  It is the message that is suppose to be looked at here.