I believe there is plenty of room in the program for units to individualize their program to their particular needs within the framework of the BSA's design. They realize that there are different needs for a unit of 8 boys as opposed to a unit of 80 boys. With a unit of 8 boys, it is kind of difficult to have an SPL, ASPL, PL and APL. Still, the boys can elect a PL who basically is the SPL. Changing the program to what you think is better than the BSA's program CAN mean that either you don't understand the program or that you simply disagree with it for personal reasons. That is why you have SM's who RUN the program and won't use the patrol method because he just can't imagine a bunch of kids being able to do it. He is either a guy who has not taken the time to understand the method or just wants to be in charge. He can sure do it that way if he wants, but is he really operating a BSA unit or his own program? What gives him the right to do it his way? If your work environment required a coat and tie, do you think your boss would appreciate you deciding tutus would be a better way to dress and just hauling off and showing up at work that way? Now, if you decide to wear a purple coat with a pink tie instead of a navy blue coat and red tie, you are still within the framework.
Juris was passing bad information to people and I feel that he was doing it intentionally for reaction. Telling SM's to hand select a small committee so they can rubber stamp your demands is not how a BSA unit is supposed to function. Should we not expose those kind of wrong headed notions when there are new scouters here looking for correct advice? Go back and read his posts. He saw nothing wrong with units owning property such as buildings and vehicles. He encouraged it with the notion that the COR can't interfere in your program if you are not beholding to them. He presented himself as having all the answers and the BSA being wrong at just about every turn. Was he running a BSA unit or was he running his own program with boys wearing BSA uniforms? Is that the kind of advice you want passed on in this community?
If we want scouting to be better, we need to hold to the program and values of scouting and adjust for the unique differences in individual units. It is not ours to do with as we will.
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Why was Juris suspended? Page Title Module
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- Oct 2002
- Oct 2003
My own thoughts on this are more in line with OGE. We may never know why juris was suspended. All we have to go on is the past history of how the forum has been disciplined.
There have many rancorous debates in the Issues & Politics section that have been allowed and many heated discussions on how to present and implement scouting. Many postings have had less than perfect grammer and spelling, and have been allowed to continue.
In the past, when a poster has been banned or suspended it has usually been because of relatively egregious violations of the forum rules. While we can be relatively annonomous, we are not expected to missrepresent ourselves.
My own suspicion is that the moderators became aware of information that indicated juris had violated the rules of the forum and suspended him accordingly. I don't know for sure, but that would be consistent with their past disciplinary actions. I don't think I can recall a member ever being suspended purely for presenting an opinion or an approach to things regardless of how badly their spelling or grammer was.
Just my thoughts.
I don't know if Juris was a previously suspended troll or not. I certainly agree that his spelling and construction was pretty awful. Having had some more Scouting experience than some of you, and once having been a professional, the conclusion I drew from his posts was that he is a genuine, long-time Scouter with some successful troop experience.
It seems unfortunate to me that we cannot tolerate dissent. I am a Scouting historian of sorts and it strikes me how the early Scouters made it up as they went. Have we reached the point that we cannot tolerate new ideas in Scouting? If it is not in "the book" can we not consider it might be a valid idea?
Most of the successful troops I have seen operate pretty much along the lines of what Juris described. I created a troop by sponsoring ourselves and created a 501(c)(3) corporation to own the equipment. That troop lasted for many years and was adopted by Green Bar Bill Hillcourt. He had no interest in our relationship with our sponsor or who our COR was. He only was interested in seeing we had trained, enthusiastic leaders who were giving real Scouting to about 50 kids.
My first reaction to the news of Juris suspension was the same as Beavah, but I decided to stick around. Nevertheless, I must say it does not strike me as fair, or to the benefit of the forum to have him eliminated.
- Nov 2004
kahuna, I agree with ScoutingAgain that Juris was suspended not for his beliefs (bizarre though some were) and certainly not for his spelling (annoying as it was). His poor spelling and grammer was certainly a ruse in any event. I believe that he simply violated the rules of the forum and was caught at it by the moderators. FScouter's mention (in a related thread) of his "abuse" of private messaging supports this interpretation.
Look at his post on page 3 of the "British Scouting Changes Oath" thread. Here, he appears to have forgotten under which persona he was writing and uses good spelling and (fairly) good construction. He self identifes as a SM, an Eagle, and an ex-professional. Then on the next page of the same thread, he hurriedly denies that post, claiming that someone must have used his screen name without his permission because, among other reasons, the Juris-imposter could spell! Right.
To me, that is the smoking gun. I didn't really care if his posts were bizarre in content or style (the same could be said for many of us) or that he called me a "jerk" (many others may privately agree!). However, if my analysis is correct, he was untrustworthy - he was decieving all of us in a systematic manner.
I therefore support Terry's decision, even though I don't understand why he blandly attributed it to "unintelligible ... forum noise"
I agree with you, and said as much in an earlier post to one of Juris' posts, to which I said, it sounded like he had a successful program, but it didn't sound like it was a "Scout Program" since it seemed he had strayed pretty far. I'm all for some flexibility, but I think you have to draw a line someplace. Our own troop has been pretty small until recently, and patrol methods well suited for larger troops turn out to not work quite as well for small units, so in some cases we improvised a bit.
But, I think that an open discussion forum like this should be open for views that are blatantly wrong. You can be sure that one of two things will happen. One, the view being presented will be quickly responded to, and sometimes not very politely if the topic is especially sensitive to some, to point out the needed corrections. Two, the post will be so far out there that it will be ignored.
Because of that, I think the Juris must of done something beyond just putting up a wacky post or two. But, that's Scouter-Terry's decision. Heck, for all we know, Scouter-Terry could be putting up ALL of the posts here, just to fill his spare time
- Jul 2004
"It seems unfortunate to me that we cannot tolerate dissent. "
Kahuna, I hope you don't mind, but I've quoted you just as a representative example. I have read several posts that express concerns similar to your above comment.
I'm sorry that anyone would believe this is a possible reason for Juris' departure. Please, believe me, Juris' opinions had little to do with his exit. If anyone would like to pick up Juris' ideological ball and carry it, feel free.
Obviously, this isn't my website and I'm uncomfortable speaking for Terry - or the rest of the moderator team, but Terry has made it clear . . .
Ideas and opinions are welcome here - all ideas and opinions. Sure, it helps the conversation if you can back up your comments with information, experience, logic, or whatever - but even that's not necessary. Come as you are. Please come respectful of others. Come Cheerfully, and Kindly, and - well I'm sure, even out of order, you know the drill.
- Jun 2000
Allow me to apologize for inappropriate comments earlier. I rushed through a posting and did not give the matter the attention and care that it deserved.
I regret wording my remarks in such a way that they could be easily construed to be personal or demeaning to an individual. More appropriately, I meant to establish two clear points:
1) it's important to not be sloppy in making contributions to this discussion (case in point!), especially when it's so easy to set a better example;
2) there was information that suggests "Juris" was creating deliberate noise.
"Juris" failed to respond when confronted with this information personally.
I will stress a final time, this has NOTHING to do with any opinions that were expressed, I am a BIG FAN of the diverse views expressed on this forum.
The decisions made in the past to boot someone have been done very well and with exceptional care. Most that have been released exceeded the three-mile limit by a wide margin. So, I am of the opinion that Juris made other remarks off-line or something similar. I do not want to know what he did and I would rather it not be posted. I am not weak of stomach or religion about such things but I would rather it remain confidential. He will go away and someone else will take up his banner. It will not remain long.
I wish others would not take offense and leave. We will have one less opinion to give strength and lend credence to a place that remains informative and enjoyable in many other respects.
Terry: Thanks for clearing that up. It eases my mind somewhat about Juris' case.
Trevorum: Thanks to you for pointing out that there was some abuse by Juris of forum protocol. I had not read some of his posts that were, apparently, rude and uncalled for.
I do remain a little offput by some of the reaction to his departure, which was pretty much along the lines of my previous post. It is obvious that there are several among us who dislike dissent and alternative ideas and dislike it intensely.
The fact is, of course, the Scouting is not a religion. It isn't heresy to disagree with the promulgations of the BSA. Some areas are not to be trifled with, e.g., G2SS. But to experiment with program methods is how this program became what it is. Kimo Wilder invented the Pine Tree Patrol method, which led BSA to a lot of older boy programs like Venturing, Philmont and other high adventure. Cub Scouting was created because younger boys were tagging along on Boy Scout outings.
I would hope that evolution of the program will not be stopped because "it may be a youth program, but it isn't the Boy Scout program." I would hope we can all keep an open mind to the possibility of change. Much of the change in the program over the last twenty years has been change that I don't very much like, but I can recognize the need for it. Other change I would like to see hasn't happened for reasons I can well understand.
Juris may have violated rules and been rude and well deserve the suspension, but I sense a certain "gotcha" attitude in some of the responses to the news. Another forum member has said here that Juris didn't run a Boy Scout troop, he ran a Juris Scout Troop. I have never seen a Scoutmaster running a truly good troop that wasn't HIS troop. That's why we are called leaders.
- Nov 2004
I agree with you that there is a certain faction that wants to see things run very explicitly along BSA lines. But it's hard to imagine how a forum like this one wouldn't have such a contingent. It's a national forum on Scouting, so I'd expect many participants to believe in doing things the BSA way. I do grow a little weary of the comment that people "may be doing some youth program, but it isn't Scouting", when it obviously is Scouting.
I'll take you one further. I don't think the G2SS is a religion, either. It changes all the time, and disagreeing with it isn't immoral. We've already had the discussion about whether it's essential to follow all of the rules all of the time. But no one got banned from the forums for arguing that they didn't need to do so, and freedom of expression was pretty well preserved. Juris is another case entirely.
Hey, I don't agree with all of the BSA regs either or everything that is in the G2SS. However, when I signed my adult leader application(s) I agreed to help deliver the BSA program - not the Acco40 Scout program. That said, the BSA leaves a lot to the Scouts and Scouters to tailor the program for their individual use with which I freely do.
Thanks for the clarification on the Juris issue. No need to go into the details, just good to have some general information on what Juris' offense was. Thanks again.
- Nov 2004
It is always sad when a member of a forum has to be ask to leave. But I was getting tired of his private messages. Some thought not threatening were disturbing. I am on other forums and there is always a problem with people that simply want to cause problems. I honestly thing Juris was one of those.
The idea of joining the BSA, studying the BSA literature, going to the BSA training, and then running a program totally different than any of the BSA standards; appears not only to disagree with the BSA but is inviting the illegal and/or the dangerous.
(that should be antithesis enough)
After being a UC, ADC, and DC for a number of years, I have witnessed all kinds of little changes made by people that were just trying to make the darn thing work. When I was SM, I know that there were things that I did that were not correct. The problem comes when somebody makes a big change (*different than little change(s)but not pure BSA) and it becomes clear that something ain't right about what is happening. It generally centers on the mysterious check book and how much should be in the account or it has to do with somebody being a One Man Show no matter what size the group. Sometimes it has to do with the choice of activities, which is more subtle but makes one wonder why age appropriate things are not happening. Now even in the worst of these cases, there are those that have been lead astray by some 'wild' idea about it not working any other way but their motive remained ethical. It just so happens that in many of these same kinds of cases the motives are not so good and either money does the disappearing act or somebody gets hurt. I can testify to having witnessed both kinds of problems in different parts of the country so it appears to come from the same family tree.
But lets say for a moment that if one were to follow all of the letters of the BSA laws, is it possible for a person to get hurt and/or money to go up in smoke? Sure, but it is more difficult for either action to occur.
I was a shop teacher some time ago. It was a dream come true for me but it lasted for only a few short years until our leaders thought up the great idea that all kids should go to college. The next year after I was released, one of my students stabbed a kid in the back for waking him up in an academic class and another got shot in the face for a similar infraction of her rights. For the five years I taught, we only had one minor accident and it was because a student broke one of the few shop rules we all agreed to follow. Heck, a kid even brought a gun to class one day for show and tell. I sent him packing to the office just in case he thought of something else to do with it.
I really had another point to make that had to do with shop arrangement. I took a class on that very subject. Now, I am the kind of person that starts thinking outside the box before I even read about it. I have a suspicious inner nature that makes me believe that people are lazy and do not think through things no matter how smart or experienced. I like to think that I am at the far end of Evolution; therefore it gives me more insight than anyone from ancient Greece to the present day. So, I decided to give the class a chance and read about the best way to arrange the saws, wood room, work tables, wood bins, nail bins, etc. I returned to the shop and drew it to scale, including all that could be moved. I worked at it for about two weeks and came up with same arrangement that had been offered by the book. What bothered me most was the lack of novelty in shop arrangement. Most that build and work in a shop try for economy of motion, safety, and efficiency of use of materials and machines. When one follows those ideas, there are just a few ways to do it in a given space. I suppose someone could reverse all of the principles but wouldn't it all come out the same?
I have studied the BSA and I have come to the conclusion that it is similar to shop arrangement. Lots of things have been tried and lots of things work. I am sure that in the future there will be changes because everything changes and people always have great ideas. But, sometimes reinventing the wheel is not all that it is cracked up to be.
(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)