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Is BALOO required for pack campout ?

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  • Is BALOO required for pack campout ?

    I am in a pickle. I think I am the only person in the pack with BALOO and OWL. In my current Council they call it LOE (leader outdoor experience). I can't make the fall campout and can't find anything written that states that training is required, but it has always been my understanding that it is. There is a class before the campout so I hopefully I can get someone to step up. Is there a National Policy or is the policy governed at the Council level ?

  • #2
    See page 16 of the 2013 Guide to Safe Scouting upper right-hand corner:

    "At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have
    completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO,
    No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of
    program intent, Youth Protection policies, health and safety,
    site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult
    participation. Permits for campouts shall be issued locally.
    Packs use the tour and activity plan, No. 680-014."
    Last edited by koolaidman; 08-23-2013, 10:57 AM. Reason: increase font size of pasted text

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    • #3
      Yes baloo is required.... look at this link under Pack overnight camping. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...GSS/gss03.aspx

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks guys, I thought so. Just to make your head explode BD..... I don't think I have any lawyers in the pack, but in case I do.....one could read that sentence as "Baloo is required to properly understand the importance of program intent, Youth Protection policies, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation. But we just want to camp and do not care about all that crap. It doesn't say we can't camp, we just won't properly understand the importance of....."

        Comment


        • King Ding Dong
          King Ding Dong commented
          Editing a comment
          BD you can put your head back together. I found this
          http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510-631.pdf

          "At least one adult giving leadership to a pack overnighter must complete Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO), No. 34162, and be present on campouts. "

          Includes that helpful period before going on to explain why.

          On the other hand, the Online GTSS is always supposed to be the most current and official document.

      • #5
        Packs locally will not be issues tour permits without a baloo trained person. So what could happen if you don't have one.......nothing.... Your one of those guys that has to have it in writing. So exactly why sis you bother asking

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        • King Ding Dong
          King Ding Dong commented
          Editing a comment
          I am looking for the stick to get some other leaders to go to training. Our council does not require tour permits if you stay in council. Looks like we are not camping on council property this fall, but even then the old CM never had to have BALOO to get a reservation for council property.

          If I am going to stand up and insist that these leaders go to BALOO if they want to camp I darn well want to make sure I have the rules on my side and not be made a fool. The wishy washy BSA speak gets frustrating when two different documents talk about the same thing but use different sentences and are not explicit. Yes, I want it in writing. These are all legal rules "someone said" doesn't cut it.

          That's why I am asking.

        • Basementdweller
          Basementdweller commented
          Editing a comment
          So getting training because it is the right thing to do doesn't cut it???

        • King Ding Dong
          King Ding Dong commented
          Editing a comment
          You know darn well it cuts it for me, I have listed all my training classes to you before. The other parents, not so much. I think there is only one other DL that has taken training beyond online. I don't have to deal with the same level of BS you do with parents, but general apathy, "I don't have time" yes.
          Last edited by King Ding Dong; 08-23-2013, 03:41 PM.

      • #6
        I've been trying for two years now to take BALOO, ever since I found out that our pack, like yours, is short of trained folks. Our district rarely does it, and the neighboring districts only do it during the school year when we are active with pack stuff. can't run the pack if we cancel events to get trained!

        Regardless, other than trying to do right why does it matter? It's family camping. Jr is camping with mom and dad, not you. The pack just happens to be there too.....

        Comment


        • Basementdweller
          Basementdweller commented
          Editing a comment
          OWL is not required to take a webelo den camping.....

          A Webelos den leader who has completed position-specific training and Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders training should conduct these events.

          http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...uidelines.aspx

        • Basementdweller
          Basementdweller commented
          Editing a comment
          I think the way the rules and required training currently are completely ridiculous.......

          I gotta live within the guidelines too......


          So why do BSA guidelines and rules need to be a complete maze and open up discussions like this????

          Require the training or not don't........Don't leave the decision up to the volunteers most will take the easy way out.
          Last edited by Basementdweller; 08-23-2013, 05:21 PM.

        • King Ding Dong
          King Ding Dong commented
          Editing a comment
          BD what is OWL then ? I have two trainingcertificates from that weekend BALOO and OWL -Webelos. I think OWL is just less to write with the "leader skills" left off.
          Last edited by King Ding Dong; 08-25-2013, 04:45 PM.

      • #7
        I took baloo out of council.......Our district does not offer training.....It really is a bad district.....The near by districts didn't match up schedule wise.....

        It doesn't fit my schedule doesn't cut it in my book.....If it is important you will make time for it.......... Getting trained to take the Pack camping isn't important that fine. No camp out and yes the boys need to realize whose responsible.

        Honestly it depends on how the Pack runs the camp out.....

        Seen one pack where everyone is on their own for meals......Mine we cooked as a group.....Seen dens cook on their own......Seen parents run into town for chicken from walmart.

        So KDD unless you put your foot down now with the CS parents their attitude will follow them into the Troop.....

        Comment


        • #8
          Lewis and Clark council is offering Baloo training September 21st......

          That is pretty close to your location.

          Comment


          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks for that. GSLAC has LOE on 10/5-6 also (20 min from the CO) but maybe I get someone to at least do BALOO.

          • Woodward
            Woodward commented
            Editing a comment
            KDD, I took the LOE at Beaumont a couple of years ago and we had a lot of fun, at 20 bucks it's not a bank breaker.

        • #9
          I have had other packs approach me to attend a campout with them because I am BALOO-trained and their person wasn't available to come. Maybe someone from another pack would be willing to help you out.

          Comment


          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            That is an option, but the downside is I would just be enabling them.

        • #10
          Stop doing the work for them. Tell them to step it up, or its nothing but Day Camp. Them's the rules, and if you as IH won't enforce them, who will? Sure,. if training is unavailable on the short notice, give them the option of inviting someone from another Pack. But make them do the call/set it up. Stop the hand-holding.

          Comment


          • #11
            KDD, you could also use the argument that the pack cam out will be a better experience if led by someone trained to lead such an event. I'd focus on getting a Wolf or Bear leader to do BALOO so you don't have to do this again next year or the year after. I'd also present it as 'this is the training for Cub Scout leaders to camp, and Webelos leaders need to take WELOTS' so it is matter-of-fact and just part of training and not 'special training that is a PITA that council requires so we can have fun.'

            FWIW, my council lets someone with WELOTS or IOLS stand in for BALOO-trained. My council also doesn't require a tour permit for outings within council boundaries, so there isn't any real oversight there anyway. We still follow the rules because 1. it truly does give a better experience to have someone trained, and 2. it's the right thing to do.

            Comment


            • #12
              Yes Baloo is required.

              Change the date for the campout so you can make it. Announce that the date was changed because "we need a czar of camping". Then recruit like crazy for someone(s) (in person conversations) to be our "Pack Campout Guru". Pack Campout Guru sets the pack camp date schedules, attends campouts, and must do the training. Since this is a limited role (how many campouts do you do anyways?) you should be able to find a parent who likes the campouts and can do that for the boys.

              Now, if the fall campout is a council or district thing where the date is set -- I think there are plenty of trained folks there.

              Comment


              • #13

                In my council, the camp training appears to be cumulative. One can take BALOO. If you take OWL, then you have credit for BALOO and OWL. If you take IOLS, with an extra hour or so of discussion, you have IOLS,and OWL, and BALOO credit. There is a Cub Scout program section that has to be done, but the IOLS covers a multitude of, er, sins.

                Comment


                • Basementdweller
                  Basementdweller commented
                  Editing a comment
                  That doesn't seem right....

                  Baloo and owl covers different things.......and IOLS has nothing to do with pack camping

                • sasha
                  sasha commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I agree, it doesn't seem right but that's a great description of how my council does it. I'll take it if it means we get to camp. My personal theory is this practice evolved as the number of training opportunities declined due to a lack of volunteer trainers.

              • #14
                If you don't have a BALOO you can do "family camping". The difference is that you are not covered by BSA insurance if its a family camp rather than a cub scout camp trip.

                There are good reasons to do the training. I hope your leaders are at least Youth Protection Trained!

                Comment


                • #15
                  Yeah they all do YPT. I talked to my co IH, no to on family camping, to much liability and I agree. I have a few prospects. One asked me today if BALOO had an online option. Sigh.

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