Appropriate Questions at BOR

[evmori 11]

No, asking "do you believe in God" is not an offensive question it is simply an inappropriate one for the purpose of a Board of review. There is no advancement requirement related to the question.

 

Ahh but there is!

 

The advancement requirement is that the Scout does his duty to God and is Reverent toward God. You should ask about those requirements if you are to conduct the board correctly.

 

How can one do their duty to God if they don't believe in God?

 

The BoR is not responsible for determining membership requirements, only advancement.

 

Asking "Do you believe in God?" isn't determining membership requirements. It's a straight forward question that requires a straight forward answer. And as I have stated in this post and others a Scout can't do his duty to God if he doesn't believe in God. Therefore, not living his everyday life according to the Oath. Therefore, not demonstrating Scout Spirit.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[mmhardy 10]

So just to be clear. If your asked some boy in is BOR, "do you believe in God" and he cheerfully replied. "Why yes every monrning my mother and I give our small milk offering to Ganesh", you would smile and move on?

 

It's a small world after all.

[evmori 11]

Considering Ganesh is a Hindu god, probably. While I don't believe what Hindi believe, the Scout does believe in a god.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[NeilLup 13]

In addition to the other problems listed, "Do you believe in God" may be the ultimate puffball Board of Review question.

 

It permits a one word answer and every Scout knows what the "right" answer is -- he knows what he is supposed to say. It doesn't really test anything other than the boy's ability to say "Yessir, yessir, three bags full!"

 

I'll bet, for example, in Ed's Troop that the Scouts know that he is going to ask if they believe in God and they say among themselves. "Mr. Mori will ask if you believe in God. You better say 'Yes.' And then if he wants more, you say that you go to church with your parents and you try to follow the Bible and the Ten Commandments."

 

For a boy who is a member and believer in one of the traditional churches, the question is no problem. But let's say that one of those evil, Godless atheists has snuck into the Troop. He is asked "Do you believe in God." If he's an honest atheist, he has a dilemma. If he is Trustworthy and says no, he is thrown out of Scouting. But if he is not Trustworthy, he says yes and gets to stay. But if he's a dishonest atheist, he says "Sure, I believe in God." and says to himself "and I believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Great Pumpkin too. What a bunch of hooey." So the question is no problem for an atheist who is comfortable lying, only for one who is honest.

 

I don't really see any way that asking "Do you believe in God?" explicitly is to the benefit of the boy. It seems only to the benefit of the adult asking the question.

 

If we are trying to help and benefit all youth, I believe we can do better than that. This is not a matter of dumbing down Scouting or compromising standards. Rather, it is ensuring that the standards really are met and understood and appreciated and worked toward rather than just creating lip service.

[evmori 11]

NeilLup,

And you assume that is what is going on? Scouts being dishonest! I don't think so. Ass-u-me is not a good thing to do.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Kudu 186]

I'm with Neil on this one. As Tim Jeal wrote concerning the Oath & Law in his biography "Baden-Powell,"

 

"From time immemorial boys have lied with facility, have thought adults hypocritical and have resented any attempts to make them appear to be ostentatiously virtuous" [page 394].

 

[Rooster7 11]

From time immemorial boys have lied with facility, have thought adults hypocritical and have resented any attempts to make them appear to be ostentatiously virtuous.

 

Interesting. Is he referring to boys as they enter Scouting...the "raw material" so to speak, that we get to teach and counsel? Or, are these boys the product of our mentoring...perhaps a boy we might see at an Eagle BOR? If its the latter, you have a lower opinion of our Scouts than I do. Or maybe, your Scouts have a lower opinion of you than what I might expect to see elsewhere.

 

Or perhaps, I just missed your point.

 

[Kudu 186]

Rooster, the context of the quote is as follows:

 

"Baden-Powell's admirers subsequently made much of the fact that his Laws never resembled negative 'thou shalt not' commandments but were always positive. The true significance of this formulation seems to me to be that (rather like a religious convert) a boy who became a Boy Scout was expected to be a changed being, wearing the brotherhood's hat, carrying his pilgrim's staff and knowing the order's secret signs and chants. Thus equipped, he could be all the things that the Scout Law states a Scout is.

 

"With 53 Labour M.P.s recently elected, the ruling class must have found the Oath and Laws reassuring, Yet while many boys probably enjoyed the ritual enrollment, human nature does not suddenly change even if fashions and conventions do. From time immemorial boys have lied with facility, have thought adults hypocritical and have resented any attempts to make them appear to be ostentatiously virtuous. Edwardian boys were no different and had they thought, as Michael Rosenthal does, that the Scout Law had been framed to produce 'absolute submission to all officially endorsed forms of authority', they would have shrugged their shoulders. Laws of a kind were insisted upon by all boys' organizations, and if the Scouts had them too that was the way things were; and at least some of them were unusual. No other body asked its members to smile and whistle 'under all circumstances'. And the prohibition of snobbery was equally novel....Far from seeming a strait-jacket of rules, Baden-Powell's scheme offered freedom beyond anything most of them had ever encountered....For thousands of boys who had never slept away from home, and for many more who had never left their home towns even for a way, this idea of going off with friends on an ambitious expedition was intoxicating...."

 

As Jeal points out, Baden-Powell's approach was always positive. His "Religion of the Deep Woods" and "Practical Christianity" were part of this intoxicating great adventure. Like everything else in his game of Scouting he approached these subjects indirectly, not through confrontation.

 

As to how this translates into appropriate questons at a BOR, I would point out that in Baden-Powell's model of Scouting, there are no "Boards of Review" for advancement.

 

Perhaps the American equivalent would be "Ask me no questions and I will tell you no lies."

[evmori 11]

Did we do our duty to God today?

[Trevorum 24]

Yes.

 

...

 

A better question might be: What will you do TOMORROW to fulfill your 'Duty to God'?

[Kudu 186]

I suspect that Baden-Powell would have found such questions distasteful and better left between the Scout and his gods.

 

B-P's requirement was a retest with the Scoutmaster to "ensure that you understand the Law and Promise in accordance with your age and development"

[Hunt 11]

I have no trouble quoting BSA language supporting my view--it's right there in the Declaration of Relgious Principle--it says that BSA is "absolutely nonsectarian." That means that although belief in God in a general sense and duty to God in a general sense are required, BSA is not going to go into the specifics. Thus, BSA will recognize ANY religious belief, no matter how strange, how vague, how individual, or how far out of the mainstream. That's what "absolutely" means.

It has also occurred to me that a scout might say, "I feel that my religious beliefs and practices are private and I prefer not to talk about them--however, rest assured that I can truthfully recite the Oath and Law." I don't think you'd be able to demand a better answer. Similarly, a Scout might say, "I believe that there's some kind of higher power, although it's impossible to know more about it, and doing your duty to that higher power is being kind to other people." I submit that if you fail that kid on his BOR and he appeals, BSA is more likely to kick you out than him.

[Rooster7 11]

Thus, BSA will recognize ANY religious belief, no matter how strange, how vague, how individual, or how far out of the mainstream.

 

First - the above statement is simply not true. Not every religion is openly accepted by the BSA.

 

Secondly - I submit, if we take our obligation as mentors seriously, we should not mindlessly accept whatever a Scout happens to spew out.

 

Kudu in context, I find your quote much more agreeable.

 

"If it is pushed too far, religion becomes almost a consumer productPeople choose what they like, and some are even able to make a profit from itBut religion constructed on a 'do-it-yourself' basis cannot ultimately help us. It may be comfortable, but at times of crisis we are left to ourselves." Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Trevorum 24]

Not every religion is openly accepted by the BSA.

 

I find this staement puzzling. Why do you say this? While some religions do not have their own religious award recognized by BSA, I've never heard of BSA actually refusing to accept ANY religion.

[Hunt 11]

I don't believe BSA has identified any relgion or religious belief as not measuring up, other than atheism. BSA has recognized Wicca, for example, as qualifying as a religion (they say there's no award because there's no national Wiccan organization). I don't know if they've been confronted with Satanism--that would be a challenge, I guess. But presumably BSA means what it says when it says it is "absolutely nonsectarian."

And how are you going to judge whether a boy has done his duty to God, aside from whether he thinks he has? Are you going to fail a Roman Catholic boy who doesn't attend Mass, but says that he does his duty to God by leading a moral life? I should point out that the Scout Oath does not require a boy to be "committed to serving God" but rather to do his duty to God. Those may or may not be the same thing, depending on the boy's beliefs. The nature and level of duty will vary widely (for example, the differences in duties between Reform and Orthodox Jews is tremendous). Really, only the boy himself can make the judgement of whether he's doing his duty as he understands it--you can probe his understanding, press him to articulate it better, and urge him to think seriously about whether he's fulfilling his duty, but you can't substitute your own idea of what that duty is. If you do, you're violating BSA's Statement of Religious Principles.