MB vs Rank Sign Off

[SR540Beaver]

The discussion about how to handle a parent cooking for a patrol on a campout prompted this thread.

 

We had a boy who took the canoeing MB at summer camp last year. He is a 2nd class working on 1st class. During a discussion between the SM and ASM's and the boys about advancement, this boy announced that his mom committee member and treasurer) had signed off on requirement 9a, "Tell what precautions must be taken for a safe trip afloat" since he had completed the canoeing MB which says in 4d, "Review and discuss BSA Safety Afloat, and demonstrate the proper fit and use of personal flotation devices (PFDs)".

 

The SM told him that his mom (a nurse) is authorized to sign off on first aid requirements, but not for Safety Afloat. That is one of the requirements that I typically sign off for. The SM reminded him that sign offs need to go thru him or the person authorized to sing off on specific requirements.

 

I totally agree with the SM and have had a few discussions with my own son when he wants me to sign off on a requirement. Even though our SM has no problem with me doing that, I don't want anyone thinking I'm letting him skate. This boy and his mom is one of the reasons I have this own personal rule. He completed every activity pin in Webelos when his mom was the den leader and we knew for a fact that he didn't do the work.

 

Where am I going with all this rambling? Does the requirement in the canoeing MB cover the requirement for the 1st class rank or not? Since I am the one who signs off on Safety Afloat, I have a feeling he will come to me and ask me to sign in place of his mom.

[scoutingagain]

Gee Beav, good question.

 

I'll admit I don't think I have an answer, but I'll share my thoughts.

 

I would not have a big problem with the double dipping issue. It sounds like if the scout fulfills 4d of the MB requirement, he would also complete, 9a of the 1st class requirements. If I was asked to sign off on 9a because a scout came to me and said he did this in Canoeing MB, I'd talk to him a little to confirm he was aware of the safe trip afloat precautions and sign it.

 

I do share your concerns with Parental sign offs though. I also make a point not to sign off on my son's advancements. The only time I have ever done so has been a few times when he has been part of a group and I've gone over a particular requirement for a group a scouts. Now if there is a rule, that specifically says parents can't sign off on their son's requirements I'm not aware of it. I wish there was one. I know in the troop I serve, it is not necessarily forbidden, but it is frowned upon. Generally we do not have a problem with parents signing their own son's advancement records. If it's just this one requirement and your fairly certain the scout is aware of the safety afloat plans, I'd let it go. If this starts to become a habit, where it looks like a significant percentage of the requirements are signed off by a parent, I'd have a talk with the scout and politely let him know he's not a Webelos anymore and he should seek out someone other than his parents for advancement signing.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Good question though.

 

SA

[anarchist]

Happy NEW!

 

does your troop have a 'policy' ?

 

Ours does...NO PARENT SIGNS OFF FOR OWN CHILD...ON ANYTHING...period, end of question! And for 8 or nine years it has been observed...I can think of small units way out in the "outback' that might have a problem but in general parents can be down right stupid when it comes to there own kids...in some cases HARDER just as often as easier...

I would ask the scout to 're-acquire' 9a which has numerous 'points' to 'discuss'. It, (the requirement) does not say "earn your canoeing merit badge" (which is, in many cases, a bonifide joke at summer camps...Both of my sons at different camps 'did' this badge. One earned it a learned something the other spent some time, played in a canoe on the waterfront and was 'given' it...(his words...but dad is an avid canoe jocky..who knows and requires good basic technique).

 

Advise the SM, if you have the standing, to allow the scout to earn his rank not be given it...

AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE POLICY...GET CRACKING!

[SR540Beaver]

scoutingagain,

 

Thanks for the reply. Maybe I'm being too much of a stickler, but here is part of my problem. The merit badge says to "review and discuss" Safety Afloat. The rank requirement says "tell". To me, that means a working knowledge. It might have been acquired during work for the MB, but until he tells it to me after he has reviewed it and discussed it, I'm leary that he really knows it. The first boy I worked with on this requirement was our SM's son. I think he had read it and thought he could breeze thru it with me. He got one or two points of Safety Afloat and started guessing at the rest. I even asked him leading questions and he still couldn't answer. I told him he didn't know it and as much as I hated to do it, I couldn't pass him on it. He had to learn it because it is important to know when he is out on the water. He was in tears because he was convinced he was going to get another requirement ticked off. I promised to make time a the next meeting if he would go home and study it. He came back the next week and nailed it! I took him back into the meeting and heaped praise on him in front of the other boys.

 

I think the two requirements are different and unless the boy could explain it to me pretty well, I don't know that I'd allow him to double dip.

[SR540Beaver]

anarchist,

 

Good points. No, we have no formal policy. We are a new and small troop. The SM is an Eagle scout and our district trainer. He preaches all the time about earning as opposed to getting and is true to his word.

[evmori]

I think it is up to the Troop on this one. Mom is not the proper person to sign the requirement.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[CA_Scouter]

We do not permit parents to sign off on any rank advancement. Only the SM or ASM's may do so. Furthermore, we have an informal policy among the SM's to not sign off anything for their own child. This has worked well for us, in the regard that nobody has questioned whether a boy has done the work that is required of him.

 

Regarding MB requirements and rank advancement, we do review the information in the rank advancement with the Scout even though he passed the MB. We just think its good practice to do so.

 

[molscouter]

The only requirement where I could see it reasonable for a parent to sign off is the 2nd class one on the drug and alcohol program as it says discuss with your family(This message has been edited by molscouter)

[KoreaScouter]

As a SM, I allow double-dipping between rank advancement requirements and MB requirements, but advise Scouts that they cannot double-dip between two MBs (for example, counting the hikes in Hiking as the hikes in Backpacking).

 

Maybe I've been cloistered, but I've seen a parent/registered leader misapply the advancement method to their kid's advantage only once. I don't see that as rationale for a blanket policy prohibiting any leader from signing off their son's advancement. I thought we're operating from the going-in proposition that we're trustworthy (unless proven otherwise, then we'll deal with that individual/that situation).

 

My NSP ASM has a boy in the patrol. Under a "no nepotism" rule, he can sign off advancement on all NSP Scouts...except his son, for whom he has to have either the Troop Guide do it, or hunt down another grownup. Sorry, but that doesn't pass the ha-ha test.

 

If somebody's not following the Oath/Law, deal with them, but don't tie every other leader's hands.

 

KS

[acco40]

Who may sign off on a Boy Scouts rank requirement? His leader. Now, as usual the BSA policy is purposely vague on that issue. His leader may include the SM, SAs, SPL, ASPLs, PLs, Troop Guide, etc. I think that it is very important that the SM and the Advancement Chair see eye to eye on this issue. Some troops have the youth sign-off for other youth. Some have "nepotism" rules.

 

For most requirements the did/did not decision for fulfillment of that requirement is fairly easy. For others, such as what constitutes service, scout spirit, position of responsibility, active participation, etc. judgement (and 99% of the time the SMs judgement) comes into play.

 

Personally, as SM, I have signed off on both of my sons requirements but usually have another adult do the evaluation and my signature is just a formality. I also have my SAs give the SM conference to my sons. I don't need to get to know them better via that vehicle.

 

For the particular case detailed in this tread, I would have no problem with the mom signing off if she had prior approval from the SM.

[Hunt]

We all know that a BOR of review is not supposed to retest requirements that have been signed off. But we also know that the temptation to do so is strong, sometimes very, very strong. It may be even stronger when the requirement has been signed off by a parent or by another scout. This is why I suggest to my son that he have as many requirements as possible signed off by the SM.

[dan]

Who may sign off on a Boy Scouts rank requirement?

The SM handbook states that the SM assigns who can sign off of the requirements for advancements. The SM should have a list of who can sign off of what requirements. If the SM says Troop guides can, that is fine, if he says only he can, that is also fine.

So back to the original question, I never sign off of a requirement, unless the scout can show me, that he understands the requirement. If a scout comes up to me and says I did safe swim defense for the canoing merit badge, can you sign off for me, I just say, great it will only take you a couple of minutes to tell me what is required for safe swim defense.

Has the SM allowed this CM to sign off of this requirement for other scouts? Does the troop allow CM to sign off of requirements?

It sounds like the SM has not done his job and wrote down who can sign off of what?

[anarchist]

SR540...

thought I'd give you another two cents...

several years ago We started a policy manual, nothing big, just how we expected scouts to act, what was expected of Scouters, scouts and parents and what BSA 'things' parents needed to know...I recommend highly that as you grow (as a troop) in corporate each new 'challenge' into good sensible policy.

 

One of those policies we now have is for our New Scout Patrols; only the SPL, SM, ASM's assigned to NSP's and the troop guides can sign off for any requirement through first class... period.

 

We were finding in the SM conferences that many (most?) of the new scouts had few of the skills required for either the new rank or their current ranks...ie. ask a second class first aid question of a first class 'candidate'...get a dump look and "I forget"...ask for a knot ...same answer...so we decided to make the effort to limit (by 'official' policy, the folks who can sign off. To make it more 'important' for both parties in the 'transaction'...NOW SM knows who to come see if a scout is not really 'learning his stuff'! If you sign it... the boy better know it! (sounds tough...not really, but it lets all participants know this is important!

 

Do some internet crawling...many troops have 'policy' papers on line...makes for lots of really heavy, sleep inducing reading but from time to time you will find something your troop can use!

YIS

anarchist

[dan]

The requirements do not say that a scout needs to remember the requirements after they have been signed off. If the scout did the requirement and it was signed off, and he forgot it by the SM conference he still has satisfied the requirement. It should be the troop responsible to make sure that the scouts are using the skills, so they are not forgotten.

What does your policy say on how a scouts should act? Something more than the Scout Oath and Law?

[Twocubdad]

Our troop is purposefully light on "policies." Since I'm one of the primary ASMs for the NSP and have a son in that patrol, it makes it a bit awkward not to sign off for my son. The troop doesn't have a problem with me doing so, although I personally prefer not to. My reason is more that I want my son, a normally shy kid, to have to go to another adult for his sign-offs. But when we are in a group setting, for example the whole patrol recently completed the orienteering course, I'll sign my son's book along with everyone else.