Scouts and honesty

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

I recently had a scout approach me with his handbook and he showed that many of his requirements had been signed off for First Class. The initials were scribbled and when I asked, he said they were those of his older brother. I actually put off the scout on this, as other things were happening at the time.

 

This is a complicated story, but suffice it to say that after some checking, his brother did not sign him off, and it appears the scout forged his brother's intials here.

 

I will offer more if it becomes relevant, but what is the best way to address this?

[sheldonsmom 10]

Personally, I would start with a SM conference on what the law means. Also I would ask him why he thought he could not complete the requirements.

 

There really is no easy way to approach this. Few things anger me more than cheating/lying and I tend to have knee jerk reactions to it.

[Gunny2862 11]

I've not had this issue yet, but rest assured whether the Scout knows it or not I will internally be ready to have a stroke.

 

I think a discussion of honesty and the meaning of symbols and their fidelity to reality would be in order. I.E. how would he feel if every time he spent a Dollar that dollar may or may not be equal to 100 cents. What if you couldn't trust that when you were paid a dollar it didn't mean that you could use it to obtain a dollars worth of goods or services. What if one time it was worth 5 cents and another time it was worth 75 cents - would it still BE a Dollar?(Economists need not address the above)

 

When you see a Fireman and his badge coming to put out a fire you should be able to trust that he has a certain amount of knowledge about saving as much as possible of your house or how to search it to save your little sister (if she were still inside).

 

In the same ways, that First Class Badge (and any others in Scouting) only means something if that Scout who is wearing it actually learned how to perform the skill(if only long enough to get signed off, don't get me started) and hopefully can retain that skill.

 

Any unverifiable signature would require a re-do, if it was legitimate but unverifiable that's part of the cost of cheating...

[evmori 11]

I would go over the requirements that are signed off with the Scout to see if he really knows them. He might! I would do this under with the explanation that as the I am responsible for the advancement process and since I didn't assign this task to any one else, I would like to review these requirements. Wanna bet he fesses up?

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

I agree with you. But as I said, it is complicated. I had just had a SM conference with this scout for 2nd Class. He has been with the troop for almost 2 years. And he does have most everything completed--but no one had ever signed him off. We had just in fact been meeting at a pool and had been completing the Swimming requirements for most scouts. Likewise, the month before, we had done First Aid, and I had just been looking at his advancement records in Troopmaster; I knew exactly what he had done and what he had signed off.

 

I guess what concernes me the most was what he did with his brother's book. His brother (17) is only a 2nd Class. There has been much debate in the troop regarding this, and some of the older scouts have refuted this, but he has never had his 1st Class SMC or Board of Review. He is a very smart teenager (straight A's a school which today came out as being ranked 53rd academically in Newsweek!), and he is very active in Student Government. His is using in his daily live the skills he has learned in Scouts. He has 23 merit badges, but will never be an Eagle. He has been a great scout but is only in the last few months become completely inactive because of his academic demands. But back to his little brother. The younger scout came up with his brother's book showing me where he WAS signed off with a SMC and a BOR. This was not recorded the way we do it, and it was obvious it was "fake." I asked whose initials those were, and he said that of an 18 year old ASM/Eagle who has not been at a meeting in a year. I had just a few months ago seen the older scout's book, and I knew it was not signed off.

 

It was after this that he showed me his book showing where his brother had "signed" it off. As I said, I was busy when he was showing it to me, and only when thinking about it the next day did it sink in. He would be having his BOR for 2nd Class tomorrow, but I have withdrawn my support for the board. By coincidence, he is out of town and would not have made it anyway. I have not had the chance to have another conference with him, but I will next Monday.

 

With having nearly every 1st Class requirement done (we talked about this at his SM conference just 9 days ago), I can't understand why he forged the apporovals, and then showed me his brother's book to "prove" to me that I was wrong and that he "is" a 1st Class. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Lisabob 13]

I think you need to just ask him bluntly why he did this?

 

Maybe there is some strange stuff going on in his head (at home? at school?) where he feels a need to prove himself to somebody. Maybe he thinks he is doing his big brother some sort of favor, or protecting him in some odd way. (did I read this right - the younger boy is also trying to convince you that his older brother is a 1st Cl scout? Does your troop have some rule that scouts can sign each others' books if they are 1st cl. or above? Or is somebody teasing the younger kid about his older brother's low rank?)

 

Anyway there's something strange going on here, as this is beyond just run-of-the-mill behavior.

 

And maybe it merits a look, not just at this scout's situation, but more generally at how the troop handles sign offs?

 

ETA: depending on his relationship with his older brother and the brother's actual involvement in these forgeries, you might consider asking his brother to participate in part of your SMC with the younger boy.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

[Twocubdad 665]

I'm missing a point here. I don't understand the significance of the brother's rank. If the brother is First Class, does that mean the brother is then authorized to sign off the little brother's requirements?

 

Don't get caught up in the legalities and policies. Kids are pretty savvy about what the rules are and how to walk up to the line without crossing it. That this kid figured out proving his brother is First Class may gets him off the hook is proof of that.

 

The way to win that game is not to play. You know the kid is trying to pull something, so call him on it. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... You're running a Scout troop, not a law firm.

 

A couple years ago I had a group of kids who were very good at negotiating their way around the rules. They counted on the adults following the rules to the letter and, more importantly, using an adult burden of proof to determine who did what. They figured out that if no on talked and we didn't have hard evidence of what happened, no one got in trouble.

 

I played that game for about six months. I finally wised up and stopped playing. We booted one kid from the troop. We suggested another reconsider if Scouting was for him (he transfered out). A third kid we gave a short suspension. Once the Scouts saw we would enforce the spirit and not get wrapped around the axle with the letter of the law, we saw a big change in behavior.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I'm with all da other posters, eh?

 

The issue yeh have before you has nothing to do with advancement or rank. It's far more important.

 

You're bein' given that rare special gift - a moment when you can teach a young man about honor and honesty that may last for his entire life and be passed along to his children and grandchildren.

 

Don't waste it worryin' about advancement.

 

Talk to the boy, figure out what's goin' on in his head.... and then stop it! Make da result of his poor choice at least 5 times worse than the payoff he would have gotten had he gotten away with it. If yeh don't... if the consequences are only minor... then there's no reason for him to change his behavior, eh? Since not every adult is goin' to call him on it when they should, he'll get a good payoff at least some of the time.

 

Your disappointment, the disappointment of his brother, delayed advancement, apology, talk with parents... missing a fun event or two... whatever yeh need to do.

 

Don't squander a wonderful chance to make a real difference in a lad's life.

 

Beavah

 

[nldscout 18]

I would go for either waterboarding of a cattle prod to get to the bottom of this.

[oldsm 10]

I had a similar situation a few years ago where a new scout had forged signatures in his book. I found out about it when one of the older scouts (who had been authorized to sign off on certain requirements) brought to my attention that some things had been signed off with his initials, but they weren't in his handwriting.

 

I had an after-meeting SMC with the new scout (with an ASM present). Dad, who had come to pick up his son, insisted on sitting in. As soon as Dad realized that his son had forged the signatures, he took his son and said "We're outta here if this is the way things are going to be." The kid dropped out of scouts that night. He's been a handful in school from what I've overheard. Too bad Dad took away a teaching opportunity.

 

Good luck!