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Eamonn

"My job is to help boys make ethical decisions, not to make them do want I want them to.

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>>And I'm not trying to make it hard! Just trying to point out there are time things need to be told 1st & explained later.

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Ed,

 

I don't know, maybe you are using the words told and ordered interchangeably with ask and explain. While all of those words indicate some form of communication, they are not the same. Our job is to teach boys to help them make ethical decisions. A decision is a decision. A choice. Telling someone what to do or issuing and order negates a choice or decision on their part. They are learning. We are teaching. This isn't boot camp where we yell and tell them to get off their lazy can and mop the floor or drop and give me 50. That is indeed a method.....of the military whose mission is far different than ours. It isn't a method of scouting.

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"OK. So when we get to camp telling the SPL to "get the gear unloaded" isn't the way to go? I should have a 10 minute conversation with the SPL so he understands why the gear needs to be unloaded? That way he will feel part of the decision making process? Do I have this correct?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10"

 

Do you have it correct? That all depends on what kind of leader you want to be and how well you understand the scouting program.

 

First as a Scoutmaster, or when acting on his behalf, the SPL would always ride with me. On the way to the camp site we would review the agenda for the next 12 hours of program. Let me share a part of the converstaion on a recent outing.

 

Me: So what is the first thing you have in mind to do tonight.

SPL: I will tell the guys to unload.

Me: All the guys?

SPL: Well, I'll have the patrol QMs get their patrol gear and the patrols will get their personal gear into pack lines.

Me: excellent idea! Now did you plan to shout this out to everyone at once.

SPL: Well I really just need to talk to the PLs and the QMs

Me: That's a good point. I think you got a good handle on this. I will have the adults wait until you guys are done then we will get our stuff.

SPL: That would help

Me: Have you seen the map for the camp area?

SPL: Yeah, but its not very detailed. We really could get patrol sites from it.

Me: So what's the plan?

SPL: I guess while the patrols unload the PLs can pick their sites.

Me: that sounds good, let me know where everyone is once their sites are set-up Okay.

SPL: Sure, then should we do a quick PLC to go over tommorrows schedule?

Me; That's your call, just let me know what you decide. if there is a meeting I'd like to be there.

SPL: If they get set up early enough we will do it tonight, otherwise I guess we can to it while breakfast is being prepared.

Me: If we go in the morning let the PLs know tonight in case they have to adjust their duty rosters.

SPL: Good point.

 

I'll bet we spent 20 or 25 minutes reviewing the agenda like that, rather than 10, but you know what...the scouts are worth it...aren't they? This boy was 14 and not quite a Star scout. I think he did an awesome job. The other two boys in the car who listened in on the conversation will be better leaders just by having witnessed the process.

 

I will not leave my camp site until the SPL comes to get me to say all the patrols are set up, or unless I am needed for an emergency. The SPL will roam around offering assistance to the PLs as needed. will there be mistakes? Sure probably, we will deal with those later as the opportunity arises.

 

OR

 

You could get out of the car and tell everyone to get unloaded and for the patrols to get set-up then report to the leaders area for a plc at 9:30 don't be late. Then tell the SPL where you wanted the tents lined up.

 

1 minute tops. Simple, direct, gets the job done.

 

Which is closer to what you would you do Ed?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Bob,

Has it ever occurred to you that entire scenario could be played out on the way to camp in the vehicle? Or even while the trucks were being loaded before you left for camp? Nah! That makes too much sense! And really, what's the harm in telling someone to do something? There is none. Is it a style of leadership? Yep. Can it be used with other leadership styles? Yep.

 

Closer to what I do is what I just described. It's up to the PL's where to put their patrols. I set up my tent & put on a pot of coffee & relax. That's what I do.

 

 

Barry,

A dyslexic little but ADD not.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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Nothing meant by it, it just seems like some of the discussions in our house. OK, OK, it seems like conversations with my wife. OK, OK, I admit it, she usually starts these kinds of discussions with, "Focus Barry, Focus. Now....".

 

Glad your not ADD.

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"Bob,

Has it ever occurred to you that entire scenario could be played out on the way to camp in the vehicle?

 

If you read the post ED you will see that I said we did this on the way to camp.

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Oops! Missed that! Sorry!

 

So then where is the conflict? Everyone disembarks when they arrive at the campsite. The Scouts mill around checking things out & after a little while you say to the SPL "Get the gear unloaded." And you have a problem with the SM saying this to the SPL? Would you have another 10 minute discussion with the SPL as to why you think the gear needs to be unloaded?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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Honestly Ed! What is with the switching gears thing? You have not been arguing for teaching the boy, planning and then leaving him in charge without interference to make good decisions. You've been arguing in favor of issuing orders and making a boy do what you want because it is the right thing to do. Having that discussion on the ride wouldn't be the short sweet direct approach you like so much.

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Honestly Ed! What is with the switching gears thing? You have not been arguing for teaching the boy, planning and then leaving him in charge without interference to make good decisions. You've been arguing in favor of issuing orders and making a boy do what you want because it is the right thing to do. Having that discussion on the ride wouldn't be the short sweet direct approach you like so much.

 

My argument - as you put it - has never been against teaching. My point has been there is nothing wrong with telling someone to do something. Not every decision we make is an ethical one! We decide to take out the garbage because the bag is full. No ethics involved. We decide to have a snack because we are hungry. No ethics involved.

 

Teaching boys (or anyone) to make ethical decisions is teaching them to do the right thing. Sometimes boys (or anyone) need to be told what to do. Nothing Wong with that.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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"So then where is the conflict? Everyone disembarks when they arrive at the campsite. The Scouts mill around checking things out & after a little while you say to the SPL "Get the gear unloaded."

 

Why do you have to TELL the SPL to "get the gear unloaded". He already told you in the car that he was going to do that, he told you how he was going to do that he told you what he was going to do after that?

 

Why can't you just get out of the car and be quiet and observe the SPL and others do their job so that you can congratulate or counsel him later on?

 

Why do you insist on displaying to the scouts that the SPL is nothing more to you than your parrot?

 

Train them, Trust them let THEM lead.

 

Your idea of successful teaching seems to be that if the scouts do what you tell them to do... then they have learned something.

 

The crevice widens.

 

 

 

 

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Why do you insist on displaying to the scouts that the SPL is nothing more to you than your parrot?

 

Your opinion. And a very inaccurate one at that! And why would I congratulate them for doing something they are supposed to do?

 

My idea of success if the same as yours. We just have different methods of getting the same results. And that's OK!

 

And if the SPL decides to take a hike with the rest of the Troop prior to unloading the gear that's OK? I shouldn't tell him to unload the gear 1st then go on their hike?

 

And BTW, what does unloading the gear have to do with making ethical decisions?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

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Ed,

 

You introduced the SPL and gear unloading earlier in the thread when you said, "OK. So when we get to camp telling the SPL to "get the gear unloaded" isn't the way to go? I should have a 10 minute conversation with the SPL so he understands why the gear needs to be unloaded? That way he will feel part of the decision making process? Do I have this correct?"

 

I wasn'tsure what it had to do with ethics either when you brought it up.

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Ed Said "...We decide to take out the garbage because the bag is full. No ethics involved...."

 

I want to come live at your house Ed. At mine we are still battleing the issue of letting the garbage climb up the wall. Its not exactly a matter of ethics as much as developing a care factor higher than zero for household responsibilities.

 

Anyway - I have nothing useful to add to the discussion except to say thank you to everybody. I have found this topic to be very useful as I feel out my role of adult to my 11 year old nephew/new Boy Scout. And no, there was NO sarcasm intended in that remark. I have taken away some very good information from this topic.

 

Eammon - I'm in the "not throwing away what I paid for" boat. I am fine-tuning the are of privledge removal. However, Scouts is not a privledge, it is a commitment he has choosen to make.

 

I try to set him an example of ethical decision making and am trying to show him how to be a decent person. He is with me because he can't be with his parents, but I have had him for much of the last 5 years, as my Cub Scout. We had a major problem over the computer and inappropriate websites which revoked computer privledges. However, he was given the oppurtunity to re-earn trust and now has the computer back. I have shown him I will trust him and he is working to show me he is trustworthy.

 

Again - thank you all for help, even if it wasn't intended that way.

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