PL having leadership problems, when to offer help.

[SctDad 10]

I have been noticing some things with our PL's in the troop. They are having problems with patrol members listening and getting down to business. There are youth that are not listening.

 

We had this problem two weeks ago. They were running around the cabin where we have the meetings and not doing anything scout related. I asked the PL if they had worked on their knots recently (as many of them are trying to make rank.) He told me no and that they other members of the patrol were running around. I asked if he would like some help and he said yes.

 

I called them in and told them that the PL wanted them to sit down for know tieing. They asked me why. I told them that the PL said that it was time to work on knots. After some griping they sat down, but they still gave the PL gave him some grief.

 

The question is, when do the adult leaders step in and help the PL. There is no SPL. How should we as adult leaders help the PL's without removing the boy-led program?

[Twocubdad 665]

There's a fine line between boy led and boy led off into a ditch.

 

I won't say what you did was inappropriate. With the other guys off running ferral, you could have taken the alone time to coach the PL on some techniques for keeping control of the group. We teach our guys that if they're having trouble keeping discipline to bump it up the chain of command. With no SPL, the PL going to an adult is appropriate.

 

We have one patrol with a fairly young PL and several older patrol members. A couple weeks ago the PL was taking a lot of flack from the patrol members as he tried to plan a campout. Much of the flack was coming from a couple guys who weren't attending the campout. I invited the offending older guys outside for a "you elected him, you follow him" reminder.

 

Adults have a role in the program other than turning out the lights at the end of the meeting. Stepping in a coaching the boys is absolutely what we're there for. One-on-one is best, off-line is best. And if the Scouts are engaged and working at it, let it run. But in the situation you described, no learning was occuring. The patrol was off running wild and the PL was sitting alone. Resetting the game, setting them up and sending them off again is a good thing.

 

Sounds like you have a fairly young troop. Was the SPL absent do are you just not big enough for one? If you have a large troop and a corps of older Scouts leaders, my reply would change.

[boomerscout 35]

what kind of training has your PL received? Are they elected or appointed? What age & rank compared to rest of patrol? Does he have a PL Handbook to refer to? How long has he been PL? Had other Scouts just loaded up on sugar?

[Stosh 3452]

Discipline is always a sticky situation and can be handled in a couple of different ways.

 

Either the leader isn't doing his job or the followers aren't doing their job.

 

If the leader isn't doing his job, then it's time to instruct the leader on how to better do his job so the boys will want to follow. If the followers aren't doing their part, then it's time to work on them. I find that most of the problems lie in these two areas. If the PL isn't trained, isn't prepared, etc. then the boys will lose focus on the issue and or be bored to death. If the followers don't want to be there, then no matter what the PL does he will still have difficulty.

 

I had a couple of the older boys that were always goofing off and disrupting a mixed patrol of boys that were trying to get the younger boys up to speed with advancement. Instead of pitching in they disrupted the process. Happens all the time in patrols all over the place. The PL solved his problem by simply saying the SM wanted to talk to them and so they came over where the adults were sitting. They asked if I wanted to talk to them and I said, "Yes, hi, how's it going?, sit down." I then went back to talking with the adults, engaging the boys every now and then in the conversation. Eventually they asked what it was I wanted to talk about and I said "Nothing, but I assume the PL sent you over here because you were disrupting what was going on and needed the two of you to get out of his hair. Is that a fair description?" The silence that follows is always a good indication that may have been the case. I told them as soon as the patrol got though with the important stuff, they could go back and join in with the other stuff.

 

1) It supported the work of the PL.

2) It allowed for and maintained a separation.

3) The patrol got their work done.

4) The disruptive members got a little time out without getting hassled.

 

If this happens on multiple occasions, the SM could be engaging the disruptive boys on subjects that may interest these boys and encourage them to take those positive efforts back to their patrol and let the PL know what might "spice up" the meeting and make it more interesting for everyone concerned. Give them the opportunity to work with the PL instead of against him. It would also give the SM an opportunity for the disruptive boys to vent/express their frustrations, goals, lack of interest or whatever it is that is causing their behavior problems.

 

The ones disrupting things are generally seeking attention and they don't care if it's positive or negative attention. However, to come down on them with both feet will not solve the problem in the future, they will learn that if they want to get attention, just cut up and the SM shouts. But what if the SM put the burden of responsibility on the boys? "What do you want to be doing if this is so boring?" "Do you want a patrol of your own that deals with things you are interested in?" etc. Leave the opportunity/burden of solving the problem on those causing it. There is no amount of leadership training one can give to a PL if certain members are disrupting the events because they don't want to be there in the first place. Teaching the PL to brow beat the boys into submission only deepens the resolve of those being punished and creates a bully of a leader.

 

Stosh

[Beavah 205]

Yah, same-age Patrol Leader as patrol members I take it? Relatively young fellows? I reckon there's a reason for Troop Guides.

 

Since yeh mention PLs (plural) are havin' this problem, I think yeh need to think about what you're doin' for Troop Leader Training, and perhaps what you're doin' for program planning.

 

Da right answer to "when to offer help" is "before there's a problem." Give 'em the skills they need by doin' a lot of TLT and PL coaching before they need it. Now that yeh see what the problems are, you've got some new goals for the next PL training you run!

 

I'd also take a look at your program planning. Younger fellows do need to run and have a lot of unstructured play and fun. Sometimes it's just fine to let 'em do that. Then a wise adult can show a PL how to use some new knots to have even more fun, eh? If they're climbing trees, help 'em get into a bigger tree by throwin' a rope, tying some knots. Swimming? How 'bout a rope swing with those knots? Racing? How 'bout tyin' legs or arms together in various combinations, or settin' up lines to crawl under or hop over?

 

That's how scoutin' is supposed to work. I can't think of anything more awful and boring than stopping the play in order to run a knots class. No youth leader is goin' to pull that off well. When we talk about "getting down to business", we adults have to remember that games and play are their business.

 

Beavah

[Eagle92 110]

troop leader trainging is good. One thing that worked in my old troop wa that the game time was always the secodn to last thing we did. Work had to be done befoer game time, and if anyone misbehaved, the PLs and SPL reminded us that we were eating uip our game time.

[Stosh 3452]

I have found out over the years that there is a correlation between leadership and wasted time. The more wasted time there is, the poorer the leadership. Once people realize this the easier it is to train more leadership into the boys. No one wants to come week after week to any activity only to have their time wasted.

 

It doesn't take much observation on the part of the adults to realize that there are times when it's being wasted. Boys standing around with nothing to do will eventually find some trouble to get into. Keeping boys busy is a leader's biggest responsibility. If he is not prepared with something to do, he's going to have trouble and the quicker he figures this out the happier he's going to be in the long run.

 

To a certain extent, a lot of behavioral problems arise from poor leadership bringing it upon themselves. Sure, there's going to be a few that will act up and cause problems no matter how much the leader is prepared, but a good leader can think things through in his preparation time so as to minimize a lot of the boys wanting to waste time and disrupt the proceedings.

 

Stosh

[Knot Head 10]

In our troop we *try* to get PL's to first address the issue in the context of the scout law. They report problems they can't handle to the Instructor (guide), ASPL or SPL. Depending on the issue the SPL may be called in by the Instructor or ASPL. If they SPL can't get them into line he reports his actions and the response to the SM. SM has a SM conference about "obedient" & "courteous". This almost always has a big impact. If that does not solve the problem the scout gets a BOR.

 

You have to train scouts to use the chain of command because they tend to turn to the nearest adult to bail them out. You also have to train the adults a little not to step in because that's what they tend to do (me included).

 

This weekend the SPL couldnt get the guys away from the morning fire to clean up and pack up for the ride home. He came over to me and asked me to tell them to get going. I told him that if he wanted to get them going he needed to put out that fire. He went over grabbed the fire bucket, poured it out and told everyone a scout is obedient, now get up and get packed. They moaned a little but got up and got busy.(This message has been edited by knot head)