Voting Vs Appointing

[bigbovine 10]

I hate to be the bringer of bad tidings, but I have a situation that requires experience. Soon and very soon the SM intends to "step down" and "name" me as his successor. In a recent discussion of Forming another Troop (Someone else was wanting me to be SM of a new Troop they wanted to form), I was informed by the current CC of the current Troop that I would basically be able to do what I want. The CC then tells me a quote that he heard told in the past to another entering SM "You can do what you want, it isn't like anyone wants to take your spot anyway!".

 

Current SM told me he was leaving the position and I would have to take over because nobody else would. I found out that is how he became SM.

 

Since then I have been writing down things I would like to bring up in discussion to see where I truly stand. By the way, every idea that I wish to bring up has either come from the mouths of boys, or things I believe would turn this into a boy run Troop.

 

This weekend provided the opportunity to discuss the dining fly. As a bonus(Though not a good one), due to a problem between an older Scout(SPL) and a new Scout, I brought up the Appointing of the SPL that is done in the Troop. From what I have seen so far, they basically choose the oldest boy. After 6 months, the next oldest is chosen. If they run out of Scouts that are First Class or above, they start back with the oldest. They make sure everybody gets their shot, and only the ones they think would do well. I tried to say something about the problem that had occurred that day and that part of the problem was because the boy feels that he has no say in what is going on (He is correct in his observance).

I then said that in the future I would like to let the boys vote on this position. He went on about how it was better their way, avoiding popularity contest, etc... Conversation went no where quick.

 

I bring this up because it is most current. There are other conversations that have gone similarly. Here is the situation and Question.

 

CC will be stepping down to another Committee position.

SM will become CC (Plus he will still have constant contact with the boys for other activities that they have outside of Scouts)

Past SM is also on Committee

All three have similar beliefs on how to run things

 

After discussing this with my three boys, one would like to see me as SM (It would be Cool), one doesn't (Doesn't want to be seen as the favorite because his dad is SM), and the other is on the border(Gave both of his brothers reasons). I personally think someone without a kid as a Scout might make a better SM in general(But that is another topic).

 

It hasn't been told directly, but everything I have been hearing tells me that I can do what I want, as long as I do it like it has been done. The SM was even making preliminary calendar plans for the next 2 years (Who is gonna truly be SM?)

I wonder if I will be hindered, whether on purpose or incidentally, by the others because the way they think things should run. Also, the SM wants out so bad, are they telling me what I want to hear (I won't truly know until I take the position)?

I enjoy the "Training" that I can attend. I even go to every Roundtable. They find it unnecessary, and jokingly talk about the brainwashing I am receiving.

 

Given that, I do not mind trying to work on this with the boys, and dealing with the adults to get things done. But at what point do you decide you are just in the wrong boat? Even if you get along with the adults otherwise, if we are not on the same page with Fundraising, Dining Fly, Patrol Division and Size, Leadership Election vs Appointing, OA involvement, Troop Trailer, etc.., will this cause more problems later? Are these problems not really that big and am I over thinking the situation? I understand I am becoming worried about my ability to lead well, but I also understand that many people start out this way and still work out fine. I just do not want to get in the middle of this and find out in a year I cannot work with them and have to leave. That is a year lost in another Troop. Or is the best thing to do is take that chance?

 

By the way, I do not plan on starting a new Troop. If we do anything, We will move to another Troop nearby. Two of the boys suggested the idea on the way home. The other doesn't want to.

[fred8033 1599]

You're in a hard situation. It would drive me crazy to have three former SMs on the committee and to repeatedly hear they did it differently in the past. I'd hope they'd wish you the best and support you as you move to more mainstream practices such as electing the SPL. Heck, that's how it's designed and documented!!! But I get concerned when you write the previous SMs say you are wasting your time with roundtable and being brainwashed.

 

My partially informed opinion is that you have many attitudes and practices to change.

 

Your going to be very frustrated for a good amount of time. Having been in your position, I'd suggest changing to a unit that's closer to what you want. Either help start a unit (per your previous email) or switch to one that is closer to what you expect. Heck, perhaps you can bring your one son's friends with him.

 

To be honest, I've never heard of a troop that assigns SPL based on who's oldest.

[Twocubdad 665]

My suggestion would be a written vision statement (or something like that which sounds less pompus.) Lay out for everyone -- Scouts, committee, parents and chartered organization. "Here's what you're going to get. If you're still interested, let me know."

 

Personally, I'd arrange it around the eight methods, because that gives you an opportunity to cover just about everything. For example, under "Boy Led" you talk about conducting annual planning conferences with the Scouts deciding what goes on the calendar. Under "Patrol Method" you can discuss cutting the 20x40 fly into patrol-size pieces with every patrol camping 300 feet apart. And so on.

 

Actually, I would include a 9th topic labeled "Administration" or something like that. Under that you need to discuss the level of support you expect from the committee, how you see working with the committee, etc.

 

The trick is, this can't just be your world-view or it will come across as a power grab. YOu need to base this on BSA policy and best practices. Reference the appropriate BSA literature whenever you can.

 

Frankly, if you don't have something like this in your head already (and it sounds like you do) you probably shouldn't take the job. I teach my Scouts that having a vision of where you want to go is the core of leadership. If you don't have the vision and passion to fix the things you see being done poorly and try to improve the troop with new ideas and program, walk away. All I'm suggesting is clearly communicating that vision and plan to the troop stakeholders. If they're not on board, you'll spend all you time and energy fighting over how "we've alway done it."

[bigbovine 10]

Just to make sure you don't think I am venting, I want you to understand, I do like these people, even admire them in some aspects. I only included things I thought pertinent, I don't want to reveal any personal information even though they may never see any of this. So let me know if you feel I have done otherwise.

 

I am just concerned that the boys have a good experience and I keep my sanity in the process. We have thought of swapping Troops twice (Three times if you count the new Troop idea), so that idea isn't new to us. Once because the boys had changed schools, and I thought it would be a good idea because they would be with some school mates(My idea, so didn't do it). Once because one wanted to change and my younger one was about to join Troop (Good timing if we were to do it, but the third one was really against it).

 

The more I have learned, the more I see things done "off kilter" in my eyes. That is the only reason I have even considered taking the position of SM. I thought I could start things going in the right direction. These are my concerns, with too many variables for my liking.

 

 

[Eagle92 110]

I can tell you from first hand expereince, albeit from an OA and CSDC roles, that it is VERY hard for someone to just step down and let the new person do their job. If it wasn't for A) my wife telling me "you're not in charge anymore, you need to focus on (my now Tiger)," as well as B) my new addiction: model trains, I don't think I could have controlled myself from interfering with the new PD for CSDC.

 

OA stuff was easier as A) I was burning out and B)I had to focus on my now Webelos who was a Tiger. Again if it wasn't for a new POR and the amount of time a TCDL entails, again I probably would have butted in.

 

2Cub gives some great advice, have a plan an present it to everyone so that A) they know what you plan to do ahead of time and B) you can get feelers out as to whether or not you will have support to implement the changes.

 

Be advised, it aint easy becoming youth led. Sometimes it will look like Chinese fire drills. Patrol method isn't pretty, especially when starting out.

 

BUT DANG DOES IT WORK

[bigbovine 10]

"The trick is, this can't just be your world-view or it will come across as a power grab. YOu need to base this on BSA policy and best practices. Reference the appropriate BSA literature whenever you can."

 

The thing is, Everything I bring up is either based on bettering the Patrol Method, or something directly from BSA literature.

 

" My suggestion would be a written vision statement "

 

I have actually been working on this for the past 3 weeks. That is one reason why I have started writing everything down. I am including also a vision for the adults also. But it seems the more I write, the more opposite I see my view is to theirs on how to run the Troop. Which makes me think, better break ties before I become SM instead of after. If I wait till after, I fear I will stay for reasons of guilt in letting the other families and their boys down. I also know I cannot stay in another position, because the SM will quit, thinking I will take the position for fear of the Troop failing.

 

 

[jpstodwftexas 72]

""It hasn't been told directly, but everything I have been hearing tells me that I can do what I want, as long as I do it like it has been done.""

 

That sums it all up right there...

3 Former SMs on Committee...

 

Sure you can use a Horse and Cart...just as long as you put the Horse before the Cart

 

Sure you can spin the Merry Go Round...it spins Clockwise

 

Have you heard also that you can have opinions as long as you keep them to yourself?

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Personally I disagree with Two Cub about laying everything out. That's an invitation to a fight.

 

You need your own plan about how to implement the reforms you propose. Rather than having a meeting of adult leaders to choose the next Senior Patrol Leader, talk to the PLC about a date to freely elect the next SPL and stick with the plan.

 

At a Patrol Leader Meeting announce that if desired, one patrol can camp at a location of their own choosing on the next trip. They will have a rainfly available to set up if they wish and no responsibility to set up the troop rainfly.

 

See how that goes. If there is a big demand for more independent patrol camping, you can accommodate that change over a period of a few months. If some patrols prefer camping with the adults, let them do that.

 

Since you will be a patrol short to set up the troop rainfly, you might want to encourage adults to help set it up, and participate in that yourself.

 

I think you need to look for ways to implement the changes you want over time by giving the Scouts the initiative in making the decisions.

 

I think you can point out to the Troop Committee that the PLC and Scoutmaster have decided on these changes, and they don't need to be approved by the Troop Committee.

 

[DeanRx 69]

You're in a very tough spot, no doubt.

 

One thing with regards to the SPL position... what about ASKING the BOYS? Ask them the pro's and con's of the current method and the pro's and con's of an election (I would suggest a vetting of candidates by the adult leaders) by the scouts. That way the scouts get to decide, but the adults get to make sure the scout(s) being voted on meet the 1st class requirement AND have the maturity and willingness to do the job! Its one step closer to boy led (which it appears in the direction you would like to go).

 

The other issues... IF (and its a big if) you decide to take on the SM job, then I suggest making a prioritized list of things that you would like to change. You are not going to turn this tanker ship around swiftly and you need to know which issue(s) are the most important and should be acted on first.

 

The whole 3 former SM's on the council is a troubling start. The ONLY way I see it working is IF you get agreement that the committee is in charge of the BUSINESS of the unit and you as SM are in charge of PROGRAM. Then hold the committee to that promise. Make them stay in their lane. They handle the business, you handle the program.

 

Get a couple like-minded ASM's at your side ASAP. Better yet, have them lined up and appoint them as ASM's as your first duty as the new SM. That way, you have other "program" people in your corner that will want to run the unit in a similar fashion as you do.

 

Bottom line - sounds like you may be butting heads with the incoming CC (outgoing SM). You need to have an understanding (maybe even written in the unit bylaws) as to WHO has the final say when the big two adult leaders in the unit are on opposite sides of an issue.

 

The longer I play in this scouting game, the more I'm convinced that the BEST service a former leader can give is to have a defined transition time (say 3 to 6 months), then get the heck out of the way. Take a sabatical, or if their kids have aged out, go do something else. As I've been on both ends of such a transition (going on my second time now), I've learned one hard truth...

 

It is impossible for a new leader to LEAD, when an old leader is still in the leadership mix. Works that way in business, in politics, and sure as heck works that way in BSA units.

 

You want to do the incoming leader a favor? As outgoing CC, SM, whatever... train them up, set them up for success, then get the heck out of there! SM's and CC's trading places happens a lot from what I can see, but it sure seems to cause more trouble than good in the long haul.

[fred8033 1599]

I just don't think anyone can force change faster than people are willing unless you are willing to drive those people out of the unit. So creating plans, vision documents, priority lists and so are only interesting exercises.

 

Focus on ....

 

#1 Continually learning more about the scouting program...

#2 Building relationships, trust and acceptance.

 

Over time, opportunities will come. You can slowly make changes as situations permit.

 

[Eagledad 2783]

Bigbovine, may I call you BB. It probably surprises everyone here that I was a pretty strong personality in our troop. Not only did the troop basically call our troop boy run style "Barrys program", so did the District and Council. The SM who was replacing me knew a year ahead of time they day he would be the new SM. And from his perspective, he had some very big shoes to replace. I know this caused him some sleepless nights, because about a month before he took over, he took me out to lunch to discuss his concernes and he asked me to take a vacation from the troop for three months. And I did..

 

I had a similar situation when I took on the SM gig because my new CC was the SM I was replacing. He is a really really good guy and he taught me so much about Scoutmastering. But there were a few things I wanted to do different, so we butted heads until I finally said, this is how we are going to do things, if it doesnt work out, we will change. He not only agreed, he asked where he could help me best. We turned into a great team, but like all of us, he had to humble himself and bow to the new scoutmaster and his vision.

 

We are who we are, and nobody has the same style or the same vision. You will not be happy until you try your style of scoutmasting working toward your vision. It won't all work the way you want, but you learn from it, change and try again. If you arent allowed to at least give it a try, then likely its not worth the stress because Scoutmasting even on its best days is HARD.

There is nobody that understands the weight on your shoulders except those who have been there. Even your best hardest working ASM doesn't fully appreciate what a SM goes through. I know this because I was the ASM and it didn't come close.

 

You need to take the other Scoutmasters to lunch and explain your concerns. You need to be willing to say no and walk away if you arent given some room to give the troop some of your style. As I said, its a tough job when everything is going well, so why bring predictable misery into your family. Family comes first.

 

Barry

 

[Lisabob 13]

"You need to take the other Scoutmasters to lunch and explain your concerns. You need to be willing to say no and walk away if you arent given some room to give the troop some of your style. As I said, its a tough job when everything is going well, so why bring predictable misery into your family. Family comes first."

 

Barry's last paragraph was so good, I think it is worth repeating. Especially the willingness to say "no" part.

 

So you're the only guy who will do the job? So what? Let's look at what will happen if you DO say "no." Three options:

 

1. Nobody else will do it and the troop will fold (highly unlikely, IMO, but then you already said you'd thought about moving troops a few times and so you have a back-up plan if it does come to this.)

 

2. Somebody else will come out of the wood work. (and then you would need to either support them fully, or find yourself another place to do your scouting or just step way back for a bit, even if your boys stay put.)

 

3. The old SMs will see the light and give you latitude to run the program your way. (sounds like what you want)

 

 

In all three cases, there are options. Don't fall victim to the "I have to do this or else" mentality - that allows others to shut you & your ideas down from the get-go, and gives others permission to make you miserable.

 

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

Ya know if they want to things a certain way THEY should step up and be the SM. You are--so it is your decision right or wrong.

 

My Troop has a new SM and while I do not agree on a number of items I could have stepped up.

 

We have a number of ex-SM's on our committee as well and there is always a little friction.

 

I agree to the advice on (1) get some active ASM's to back you up and (2) ask the boys.

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

Ya know if they want to things a certain way THEY should step up and be the SM. You are--so it is your decision right or wrong.

 

My Troop has a new SM and while I do not agree on a number of items I could have stepped up.

 

We have a number of ex-SM's on our committee as well and there is always a little friction.

 

I agree to the advice on (1) get some active ASM's to back you up and (2) ask the boys.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I'd echo Eagledad's comments as well, eh?

 

At the same time, when we work with kids, each kid has where he's at, and where yeh want him to be someday, and where he can stretch to right now. Don't challenge him to stretch, and he'll stagnate. Make him stretch too far, and he'll break down. Da key is to set da challenge at the right level so that he stretches fully; maybe succeeds, maybe fails, but he can at least see da possibility of success.

 

It's no different for troops. Yeh have where yeh are. Yeh have where you want to eventually be. And yeh have where yeh can stretch to right now without things breakin' down. Your task is to keep your eyes on where yeh eventually want to be, but then to choose steps along the way that are an appropriate stretch for the boys and adults in your unit. You're startin' out on a hike, not teleportin' to the destination. Changin' a troop takes years.

 

Now, if yeh find that when yeh put your boots to the trail three former leaders start arguin' immediately about the route or not lettin' yeh use da compass, then I reckon yeh had 'em the map and go back home. That might end up bein' the case for you, unless or until yeh work things out with your team.

 

However everybody's seen what happens with a Star Trek transporter scramblin' up your molecules for a destination that's out of sight. If yeh try to transport 'em all at once to your destination without hikin' the trail together, you'll get a lot of folks who refuse to get on that crazy contraption.

 

Beavah