Need References

[momof7scouts 10]

Our troop has major problems following BSA guidelines. Some feel it is acceptable to "higher the standard" on many things. I have been attending as much training as possible and getting written guidelines to try to get the individuals upping the standards to comply with BSA rules. I have been able to find guidelines on merit badges (troop limits number of open merit badges and will not allow a qualified registered merit badge councilor to sign off even one requirement for a family member). I have recently completed Eagle adviser training and have guidelines for what goes into the plan. (Our scouts have project plans in excess of 10 pages single spaced, having to cover every possible thing that could go wrong and how they will handle each possibility.) What I have not been able to find our the rules on who can sign off for rank advancement. Our current SM is the only one permitted to sign off on anything above first class and insists only ASMs can sign off on other ranks. No senior scouts can sign for ranks. No parent ASMs can sign for their own sons, even if the parent was the only ASM present at event. Among other problems with this system is that the SM is seldom available. It often takes a scout over a month to get the sign offs when all rank requirements are complete. Getting a scout master conference for Life took five weeks for one scout. Does anyone know where I can find the official BSA policy on who can sign off in scout handbooks?

[rdclements 10]

You cannot fix this through gathering policy references. Find a unit that does it right. Your son is not getting any younger. If this is truly the hill that you want to die on, get yourself appointed as Charter Org Rep.

[BrentAllen 10]

The SM is the one who determines who can sign off on rank advancement. The Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures points this out, though I understand they are currently being re-written, so you may not be able to obtain a copy at this time.

 

I also don't allow ASM parents to sign off on their son's requirements. Even though I know they would do a good job, I don't want the issue to ever come up that Johnny was given preferential treatment by his father. Plus, this helps develope Adult Association, another of the Methods.

[moosetracker 132]

BSA policy is vague intentionally.. Many people can argue & disagree on many things.. 80% of this forum is related to vague policy and the peoples interpretation of it.

 

Having the boys sign off on scout - first class is more boy lead.. But nothing states this is the ONLY way, and many troops have the SM do it, or ASM's or Advancement chairs.. Other troops may have any boy over First class, or only the PL & SPL.. Or some other combination of boys.. this is all variation of troops and their interpretation of the BS policy.

 

The not allowing parents to sign off is in many troops, some also have rules that parents can not be their own sons Merit badge counsilor.. As rdclements states, you either need to work with the policy the way it has been interpreted by your troop or find a different troop that works more the way you wish..

 

But, truely it should be your sons choice to stay or find a different troop. He may not have as much issue with this troops policies but be having fun in this troop the way it is, especially if advancement is not his #1 priority..

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

Moose,

 

Being a MB Counselor is explicitly permitted by ACP&P #33088, though I teach it's a best practice for SMs to hand assign someone other than Mom/Dad when the boy approaches for his card.

 

Remember: Step one of the MB process is for the Scout to approach the SM with his interest and desire. The SM has the ability, nay, the duty to select the right MB Counselor for the youth.

 

SMs who do not take advantage of the discretion given them in ACP&P get what they deserve in the Advancement Method.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hello momof7scouts!

 

In answer to your specific question, from the Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures, "the Scoutmaster maintains a list of those qualified to give tests and to pass candidates" for advancement requirements. So it's up to your SM to decide who is qualified to sign off which requirements. That's the "official policy."

 

I'd say it is fairly normal in most troops for the SM not to allow parents to sign off requirements for their own sons, for da reason BrentAllen points out. If nothing else, it's a good way to teach boys about the importance of avoidin' the appearance of conflict of interest.

 

I'm not sure quite what yeh mean about the registered MB counselor "sign off even one requirement" bit. It may be that you're not understanding how MB counseling works. Unlike regular rank requirements, where different people may sign off on different requirements, a boy who is pursuing a MB does so with one counselor who is responsible for testing the lad on all the requirements. If the boy switches counselors mid-badge, then the new MBC does not have to accept the "partial" of da previous counselor, eh? It's his/her job before signin' off on the MB to make sure the boy meets all of the requirements. He or she may take another counselor's word (most of us do) or the SM or parent's word (if that seems appropriate for da requirement), but it's up to the MBC. What definitely should not be happening is a parent signin' off on MB requirements if the boy is using a different counselor for the badge.

 

And it's SM's discretion which counselor a boy is sent to to work on a badge, as John-in-KC says. Many troops with strong programs don't send boys to their own parents for MB counseling unless it's a rare badge and the parent is clearly the only qualified counselor available.

 

A troop limiting the number of "open" MBs is a grey area, eh? Not technically kosher, but a good way to help lads finish badges or at least be respectful of counselors' time. Not somethin' worth fightin' over, eh? The amount of volunteer time yeh take up arguin' with people would be better spent by them working with kids like your son.

 

So it sounds like your troop isn't that far off the mark, eh? Leastways, from what little you've provided they seem to be doin' what's typical for many strong programs.

 

Can I ask if there's some other issue/history goin' on here?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[ScoutNut 147]

Your Troop's policies are well within BSA rules, and policies.

 

Have you taken on a leadership role in the Troop now? Is your husband still SM of the Troop? I thought you were set on moving to another Troop?

[moosetracker 132]

 

Moose,

Being a MB Counselor is explicitly permitted by ACP&P #33088, though I teach it's a best practice for SMs to hand assign someone other than Mom/Dad when the boy approaches for his card.

 

Remember: Step one of the MB process is for the Scout to approach the SM with his interest and desire. The SM has the ability, nay, the duty to select the right MB Counselor for the youth.

 

 

I am confused, because it sounds like you are correcting what I stated.? Except for detailing who makes the decision that a MBC can't be the boys parent, I don't see where I got it wrong when I stated,

 

some also have rules that parents can not be their own sons Merit badge counsilor..

 

 

If the SM makes it a known fact he will not accept a boy's parent as his MBC, then the troop has a rule against parents being their own sons MBC.

[UCEagle72 10]

Here is a link to the "official" AP&P - http://www.box.net/shared/edfr4lplnd

 

The 2010 edition was released and pulled back - so this is the last official version.

 

[John-in-KC 311]

National appears to have pulled ACP&P again from online resources.

 

Moose, National explicitly permits parents to counsel. The Scoutmaster is the gatekeeper. If the Scoutmaster does not have good controls on who he lets counsel kids, Mom and Dad can (and at least once in my experience have) sent Junior in with a stack of completed blue cards.

 

I did the educational work for my son when he took Citizenship in the Nation, but another counselor tested him. This was back when I didn't know better, and we did an Eagle Required MB as part of the Troops' program.

 

A good Scoutmaster doesn't have to have a policy. He just does what he is supposed to, and points the youth towards Mr X instead of Mom.

[Stosh 3452]

I would think it rather harsh to have a boy not be part of a MB that everyone else in the troop gets to do together just because his dad is the counselor. It is equally harsh to have a boy drive major amount of miles to get to a MB counselor when there's a registered one with the troop that just happens to be the scout's parent.

 

Nope, doesn't sound Friendly, Helpful, or Thrifty in many respects.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[John-in-KC 311]

I'm old skewl.

 

Every one of MY merit badges came from outside the Troop. There was no such thing as in-Troop counselors in 1968.

 

IMNSHO, every Scout should earn his MBs from adults outside his own Troop!

[Beavah 205]

Nope, doesn't sound Friendly, Helpful, or Thrifty in many respects.

 

Yah, but it can be Kind. As often as not, parents are harder on their own sons, eh? And sometimes, sons are harder on their own parents.

 

Mostly, it's a way of preventin' abuse of the system by a parent who is still operating in Cub Scout "Akela" mode.

 

National also doesn't put a limit on the number of MBs a single person can counsel, but some councils and districts do.

 

So it's allowable, eh? It's even arguably in the spirit of the "no parents on a BOR" rule. After all, BORs are largely rubber stamps. If yeh can't have a parent on a BOR because of the potential for problems then havin' a parent as MBC or signing off on requirements seems worse, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[moosetracker 132]

I would think it rather harsh to have a boy not be part of a MB that everyone else in the troop gets to do together just because his dad is the counselor.

 

Unless the boys really are interested & pushing it, alot of the same troops that put restrictions on parents not be son's own MBC, do not use troop time to do "classroom" style merit badges.. If they do, most would make the exception because the progress of the scout under the parents guidence is being monitored by others in the troop.. I think it would be strange if a troop that does classroom style MB's would isolate one boy out..

[perdidochas 658]

A Scoutmaster has to approve a MB before it's awarded. My son's troop's general rule is that a parent should only be MBC if his/her son is not the only Scout working on the MB. That said, we did have a problem with an ASM/MBC that was really being Akela for his son, rather than an ASM/MBC for the troop. The SM had words with him about this, and his son transferred out of our troop soon afterwards.