How would scouting be different without the Eagle?

[Eagledad 2781]

A great discussion asking when do we start wasting our time helping scouts grow farther than they themselves want to go. I have seen hundreds of post on the subject of Eagle, but what if there wasn't such a rank. How would scouting be different? Would the BSA still exist? Would the program be better? What are your thoughts?

 

Barry

[perdidochas 658]

I do agree it would be different. I think we'd have fewer older boys coming back. From what I can see in the troop my oldest boy just crossed over into, they have a lot of new scouts (meaning the crossovers) and a lot of older scouts, but a small group in the middle. I think the idea of Eagle re-energizes some scouts to come back at age 15 or 16. This theory is just from my observation of a troop we just joined. It could just be that they had a few bad recruiting years.

[Thomas54 10]

 

 

The program would either be lost or the program goals would be replaced with competitive outdoor events.

 

If we compare to other youth organizations (nonsports) 4H, Junior Achievement, Debate, they all have a competitive elements The competitions sustain interest. Science and robotic clubs also have a competitive element.

 

What about marching band? Someone may ask. Is that rewarding or competitive? It a little of both But I think Band is more scholastic like a foreign language. Its a graded class in school.

 

[Stosh 3452]

I'm thinking it wouldn't make a major impact on the day-to-day operations of most of the BSA program. It's nice to "graduate" out eventually and that's basically what the rank is viewed as.

 

I have worked in rank emphasized programs of the BSA and was involved in a non-rank emphasized program. Both were/are successful in their different ways.

 

Some of the boys in the non-rank emphasized program (Venturing) the boys had a successful program and none even considered doing anything for rank of any sort. Before anyone gets all in a tizzy about a non-rank program in Venturing, my group chose not to get involved even when the rank issue was offered.

 

Anyone who says that by removing the Eagle rank it will reduce the quality of the BSA program probably doesn't understand that the program will remain the same, only the emphasis or over-emphasis people place on Eagle will change.

 

Look at the issue of the palms.... a nice program to add to the importance of the Eagle, none of which is even discussed. Eagle, the minimum, is all that counts as if it's the 7th Heaven/Cloud Nine/Nirvana/Oooh, Aaah/Mecca of the BSA world. Palms are nothing more than busy work to fill the time until the boy ages out, but aren't of much value otherwise.

 

Sorry, if a boy comes into the program and goes through all the steps of maturity and character/leadership building the program provides and doesn't dink around, come and go, and/or are pressured by parents, etc. he should be able to simply move up the ranks and enjoy his experience. 7 years is more than enough to make the Eagle rank and have change left over at the end for multiple palms.

 

The difference would be in the attitude of the people, not the program itself. I'm thinking there will be a lot less of the returning boys that come back and take time from the program so the adult leaders can get these boys up to rank and get some personal recognition medal kinda thingy. For the most part, I'm thinking the boys are wanting the recognition over the accomplishment anyway.

 

Stosh

[Eagle92 110]

Intersting question. A few thoughts.

 

#1 there would probably be another top rank in a rank based program.

 

#2 If they did away with Eagle or replaced it with another award, a lot of ticked off people would complain. Speaking from experience as my PDL-1 class was told byt he then venturing Director that the Silver award was replacing Eagle as the BSA's top award. There were 40+ very ticked off pros in that room.

 

#3 If they completely did away with ranks, I think some of the motivationfor older scouts would be lost. Not only for those who want Eagle and leave, but also those who are looking for definable challenges let's face it, even if you do the bare minimum, Eagle is a challenge.

 

#4 Some scouting units, mostly those adult led, advacnement oriented units. would be compeltely lost. Those that are true " Hiking and Camping troops" would survive.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, interestin' question.

 

I think, in terms of program, it would be a net positive overall. It would take us back to our roots a bit, and allow us to return to da core virtues of the program. I agree with Eagle92, some adult-led advancement-oriented units would be completely lost. I see that as a good thing.

 

Over time, some new shibboleth would rise in its place, of course. But maybe for a while, scoutin' could be about children and the outdoors again, eh? Leastways, it would cut down on the paperwork and arguments.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagledad 2781]

>>The difference would be in the attitude of the people, not the program itself.

[Stosh 3452]

The change in program identified is because of the attitude towards Eagle. Program changes were made so that more boys would be inclined to seek the Eagle and thus more boys would/could attain it. It had nothing to do with changes in thinking that Eagle was the Holy Grail of the BSA, it was only a few program changes made to entice and enable more boys to go for it. For me all it did was emphasize a part of the process that was over-emphasized in the first place.

 

I have a young man who attained the rank of Eagle before aging out of the program. He is now taking the adult leader training and is my ASM. His requirements are over and done with and yet he continues on with the quest of his Eagle project. He cleaned up a park that needed restoration. It was a Veteran's park and although he's gotten all the "credit" he'll ever need for Eagle, he has recently attained 2 more commitments for park benches and another for putting in bar-b-que grates. He continues to seek donations for picnic tables. His emphasis has gone from local assistance to county as well as multiple support organizations. The project was done for the city's Parks and Recreation Department, but now the American Legion and Veterans of Foreign Wars are on-board. One of the benches mentioned above is from a private individual who became aware of the project through the media coverage the young man is promoting.

 

Two national veterans groups have put his name in for Boy Scout of the Year for the state. Is that what motivates the boy? He doesn't even know of the nomination at this point.

 

So I have to ask the question: What's going on here? He's got the Eagle rank, the project is done, he's aged out, and yet he keeps right on as if nothing's changed.

 

Sometimes I get the feeling that the Eagle isn't as important than what he's doing for the Veterans. Is that the result of the Eagle Rank or the character/leadership development of the program?

 

What did the lad do to just get by? - Well, he turned his Eagle project in "half done" at the last minute. Sound familiar? However, the EBOR commented there was enough work completed on his project for 3 projects. But he had to write it up and turn it in which he did a week before he turned 18. He almost didn't get his Eagle.

 

So, one can change the "program" to create whatever interesting hoops they wish to so more can jump through, but the over-emphasis on Eagle pretty much stayed the same.

 

Stosh

[Eamonn 61]

I do at times think "We" (Maybe not me?) Tend to allow somethings in Scouting to get ... A little more than what they really are.

I think Wood Badge is wonderful, but at the end of the day it is just another training course.

I was very much the proud father when OJ received his Eagle Scout Award.

I'm happy when I see almost any Lad receive the award.

For me I see one big problem with or maybe I should say about? The Eagle Scout Award is who it really belongs to?

Again for me, I'd love to see the award (Rank) belong entirely to the Scout. In a perfect world (My perfect world?) The Eagle should belong the Scout. It should all be about him: His goals, his attitude, his work toward earning it and once awarded it should be him who should know deep down in his heart as to if he has really earned it and deserves it.

From a marketing point of view the BSA has done a wonderful job of "Selling" the Eagle Scout Award and allowing it to be maybe a little more than at times it really is.

 

I can see both pros and cons if the Award was no longer there.

I keep hearing about the "5%" Thing??

I have never really worked out how anyone comes up with this.

Is it 5% of the boys who at one time have joined Scouts?

Being as we tend to lose a big percentage of the Lads who join, this 5% thing seems a little meaningless.

In the area where I live we have Troops where it seems that almost every Lad who hangs around after the age of 14 or 15 is going to make Eagle.

I watched OJ as he went through Scouting.

When he was a little fellow he really enjoyed all the recognition that went along with badges and rank advancement. I think part of this was in some way in his mind a way of pleasing HWMBO and me.

As he got older he kinda out grew the Troop he was in, became more involved in th OA and all that entailed, only needing the Troop because without it he couldn't belong to the OA.

He didn't like in any way the people who tried to push him into completing his Eagle and when he looked and saw some of the people his age who in his eyes were not worthy of the award receiving it, he seen it as being worthless.

Part of the reason he did complete it was because the camp paid an extra $100 to Camp Staff members who had it!

 

Much as I know it is wrong to generalize and I'm very much aware that there are exceptions to every rule, I'm not really sure that the very young Lads who receive the award are really capable of knowing if they have really earned it?

I'm not sure it they might be still trying to please other people.

But then again I'm unsure if this is a good or a bad thing!

To the best of my knowledge advancement of some kind has been around in Scouting all over the world since it started.

For the most part it has served us well.

If all we were to do if we done away with the Eagle Scout Award were to replace it with something else? I think it would serve little or no purpose.

When I was a Lad in the UK, a Scout could earn the Chief Scouts Award as a Scout, but had to be a Venture Scout before he started working on the Queen's Scout Award. As he (Or she) couldn't be a Venture Scout until he or she was 16, I tend to think that the Queen's Scout Award entailed a lot more work and the people who received it had put more thought into it. But I'll admit to having a bias.

Some time back I started a thread that I think was titled "What if we did away with Advancement?"

I do think we could do away with it, but I don't think we would want to.

Done right it is a very good thing, sadly it seems more and more that the goal (Eagle) is being allowed to overshadow all the really good stuff that Scouts and Scouting should be about.

This doesn't make the Eagle Scout award bad, it should mean that we have to take a closer look at what we are doing, how we communicate what we are doing and what we are about.

I'd really like to see the award become a little more difficult entailing more community service and more outdoor challenges.

Eamonn

[Basementdweller 608]

I don't think it would impact our program. We would loose one young man from our troop, that is all he is about, getting his eagle, he will only show or participate if he believes it is a requirement or will help him get his eagle. But I can see the eagle mills disappearing.

 

I agree that there would need to be some sort of a carrot, whether competitions or something else.

[Thomas54 10]

 

It may be "better" but it would be smaller without advancement.

 

The principle consumers of the BSA program are parents. I fight to get enough time allocated to get scouts to meetings and campouts. The challenges of soccer, band, football, baseball, orchestra, math club are huge. Sometimes Scouts comes out on top, as the "better" more beneficial program, sometimes scouts is a tier down. With no purpose other than to play outdoors, parents would dis-invest their kid's time in a heartbeat.

 

 

[Eagledad 2781]

>>Program changes were made so that more boys would be inclined to seek the Eagle and thus more boys would/could attain it. It had nothing to do with changes in thinking that Eagle was the Holy Grail of the BSA, it was only a few program changes made to entice and enable more boys to go for it

[Engineer61 19]

Without Eagle?

 

Would the program be better or worse? Beats me.

 

You would lose those Scouts who are there only because their parents are pushing the Eagle because they view it as a "must have" for their boy to succeed in life. I don't know that would be bad for the boys...maybe for the parents and BSA, but not the boys.

 

You might end up with boys in the program who want to be in because of what they are doing, rather than what the trophy is at the end.

 

Why does there have to be a trophy at the end? Because some guy 100 years ago wanted one?

 

My son plays a variety of sports and is an excellent trombone player for his age. He does each of them for the fun of doing it. Baseball, basketball, bowling, tennis and soccer.

 

He doesn't win awards because he does not play on competitive teams...he doesn't want to play baseball 300 days in order to be on a competitive team.

 

He wants to be a Dentist ... baseball, basketball, trombone or Eagle won't make a difference.

 

Your memories are your trophies by friends...not your badges, buttons, bobbles and trinkets. My trophies are photos of my kids doing what they like to do.

 

 

[acco40 95]

Ranks in Scouting are like grades in school. Does anyone really care about ranks in Cub Scouts when interviewing a prospective job candidate? Do they care about grades in middle school or elementary school?

 

Do prospective employers or universities care about high school grades? Depends. Grades? Depends again. If someone was a straight "C" student and had out of this world SAT/ACT scores - that would open many doors to many colleges and scholarships. Do some student try harder because of grades? Yes, but not all. Do some Scouts "try harder" because of the Eagle rank? Yes, but not all. Rank, like grades, motivate some but not all and just like a grade is not necessary and sufficient for learning, the Eagle rank is not necessary and sufficient for character, civics, and fitness.

[BadenP 93]

I have to agree with both Beavah and Eamonn. Nowadays the Eagle has lost a lot of its "special" meaning and prestige and in some councils they are given out like candy. There used to be a special pride in earning and becoming an Eagle. Now it seems to be nothing more than a laundry list of things to do,andthe goal is to find the fastest way to complete the list with the least amount of effort. The Eagle no longer carries the same weight it once did when applying for a job. I heard one HR manager at a firm say outright during lunch one day "Why on earth would we even care about an activity the man did when he was a kid, it has no relevancy in todays world." That was a real eye opener for me and I have heard many other corporate executives say something similiar about scouting and the Eagle, so my question is what has changed, where did the BSA go wrong?