What is a "Mill"?

[WAKWIB 107]

Frequently on these forums we read the terms: "merit badge mill", "Eagle mill", etc. New folks to Scouting, and maybe even a few vets, may not completely understand the point that is being made when these terms pop up in a discussion . When this element of Scouter-speak is used the apparent intent is that the mill-syndrome is something to avoid, or perhaps correct. So maybe we can take this thread in the following direction:

 

The Mill Syndrome

What are the symptoms?

What are the effects? (maybe more specifically, can this syndrome negatively affect the aims and methods of Scouting?)

What can be done to treat it?

[Scoutfish 16]

A mill is a place that churns out at high volume- where the intent is to collect, ot gather as much stuff as you can - in a short amount of time.

In my Bear Den, the Den leader and te Cub Master discussed which twelve achievements they would work on, before the year started. they tried to find a balance between what would be the most fun, the most understod and the most suited to the idea of scouting( yes, I know that they all are, but some are better than others!)

Then we work on them. We work on them, discuss them, talk about them and practice them. We might do one or two parts of an achievement at a den meeting, and leave the rest of the parts to be done at home - meaning it takes some time.

 

Merit badge, patch, and belt loop/pin Mills are where a troop/pack/den may just be where a leader just sits and talks and talks and talks about one thing after another. He talks about all the different requirements and then sombody just goes down the list and checks off one completed requirement after another.

 

The main thing is: They are after quantity, not quality.

 

TRhink puppy mills. Thosr people are just breeding dog after dog after dog in pursuit of the almighty dollar. They do notcare about bloodline, genetic healthyness or wether they are tearing of the latest "mom" up inside or not! The more puppies you have, the more you can sell and make $$$ on!

[BDPT00 41]

A merit badge mill (or an Eagle mill) is a unit that focuses on only advancement. The other methods don't matter. Kids "graduate" when they get their Eagle, and the kids all get the same 21 merit badges, because the troop's meetings are all geared toward advancement. It's an adult run, adult planned, and adult driven program. The Eagles and their parents disappear before age 16; resume item completed, and Scoutmaster's belt appropriately notched.

BDPT00

 

[Eamonn 61]

Many of these "Mills" are Troops where the adults:

1/ Don't understand what Scouting should be about.

2/ Have adults who don't have the outdoor skills needed.

3/ Have Adults who have little or no imagination.

4/ Start off with the best of intentions, but somehow get lost along the way.

5/ Many have leaders who use the Scouts to feed their own egos. Or leaders who cave in under pressure from parents who fail to understand what Scouting should be about.

6/ A n easy way to identify these leaders is by the way they talk about the Troop; it becomes "My Troop", "My Scouts", "Our Eagles".

7/ Many take great pride in the Eagle Count. In the District I serve we have one Troop which has on the back of their Troop caps and on the Troop trailer "Troop 160 where Eagles fly."

8/ Talk to a Scout from one of these Troops and he will tell you that other than MB's earned at summer camp, everything else was done in house.

9/ Attend a Troop COH and it's hard not to notice that each and every Scout gets the same MB's.

10/ Ask the SM to tie a bowline or set a map and a compass and there is a good chance he isn't able too.

Ea.

[Trevorum 24]

Q: "What can be done to treat it?"

 

A: Empower the Patrol Leaders Council.

 

 

[gcnphkr 11]

---| 6/ A n easy way to identify these leaders is by the way they talk about the Troop; it becomes "My Troop", "My Scouts", "Our Eagles".

 

Just because a leader takes ownership of a unit it does not indicate that they are an Eagle Mill. I don't see that there is anything wrong with doing so.

 

---| 7/ Many take great pride in the Eagle Count.

 

What is wrong in taking pride in having Eagles?

 

While advancement is only one method of scouting it is still a method. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in doing any of the methods well. Advancement just happens to be one of the more obvious methods. It is also the method that occurs naturally as you do the others well. Lots of advancement may not be an indicator of a healthy unit, but lack of advancement certainly is a sign of a sick one.

[Beavah 205]

There is nothing wrong with taking pride in doing any of the methods well.

 

Yah, not meanin' to speak for him, but I reckon that what Eamonn meant is that focusing on the Eagle "count" is not doing the Method well.

 

Advancement Method is meant to provide recognition to boys who have reached certain levels of skill and character, eh? And by providin' that recognition, to help other boys set goals and strive to develop that skill and character.

 

"Count" has nuthin' to do with it. Da measure of the program is quality - the quality of the skills and character of all the boys, Eagle or not.

 

Odds are that any program that focuses on "count", whether it's Eagle Count or Merit Badge Count doesn't understand how to use da Method well.

 

Lots of advancement may not be an indicator of a healthy unit, but lack of advancement certainly is a sign of a sick one.

 

Whole lots of advancement can be a good sign of a badge mill and a sick unit. Lack of advancement can also be a sick unit, but yeh have to be careful. Sometimes troops just get lads who aren't into badges, but are great leaders and outdoorsmen.

 

Ultimately we want the lads to be self-motivated rather than motivated by external baubles. So if yeh do advancement well, it should become obsolete for the boys as they grow up.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Basementdweller 608]

Add one.... A lot of 14 year old with eagles.

 

 

In my opinion, The fix for the eagle mill is firing all of the adult leadership. Till they go it will be business as usual.

 

The adults just can't help it.......

 

The toughest thing in scouting is stepping back and let the boys lead and from time to time fail.

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

Thanks Beavah! That is just what I did mean.

 

"Just because a leader takes ownership of a unit it does not indicate that they are an Eagle Mill. I don't see that there is anything wrong with doing so."

When and where did it or does it say that a leader has ownership of a unit?

Leaders are supposed to serve the unit and the youth in the unit.

While some parents who are also leaders might want to claim ownership of their son or son's (I've tried giving my kid away but no one will take him!). We volunteers don't own any part of a unit.

When we start looking or seeing Troops as belonging to us or belonging to someone all sorts of things get out of line.

But in keeping with this thread.

Then only person who really knows if they have earned their Eagle Scout Rank /Award is the recipient.

We can fuss about advancement and BOR's, Scout Spirit and a lot of other stuff, but at the end of the day the person who receives an award is the person who knows what the award is worth to him.

The Award is not a Unit or Troop Award, it doesn't belong to the leaders it belongs to the Scout who is supposed to have earned it.

My son is an Eagle Scout. I'm proud of my son. I did my part as his father to help and support him along the way I like to think I raised him in a caring and loving environment. I hope that the example I gave him help to forge the values he now has.

But I'm no more responsible for him being an Eagle Scout than I would be if he choose to get a gun and go out and shoot someone.

He is my son, but the Eagle Scout award is his.

Ea.

 

[pohsuwed 19]

Why don't we get real here. The idea of a "mill" on this message board is always brought up as a negative attack at a unit for the appearance of a level of advancement or some other achievement greater than "average." I say average, but my true opinion is that it is simply a perceived level higher than the person claiming another unit is a "mill". Call it an inferiority complex if you will. Nobody ever attempts to understand the interworkings of these "overachieving" units before they give them negative labels--they simply tear them down with criticism every chance they can get.

 

Sure, some of the items outlined above may reflect on a unit that may benefit from a little different approach, but at the end of the day, every unit is uniquely different with much of the differences coming from the skill sets of available and willing leaders to guide the troop. So when one leader on this message board is criticizing another unit of being another "mill" he is simply not recognizing that maybe the troop wouldn't even be around if it wasn't run the way it is. And what we get are a bunch of high and mighty scouters who think their way is the only way to do things. I could create a similar list illustrating how you can identify these "OFS", or "old fogey scouters". Similarly, I could be criticized by this comment in that it uses a unique reference point of my own thinking that I am younger than others. When in reality, there are probably others younger than me on this board, and then some younger than those. And so on and so on. Therefore, using the definition of the mill simply being the troop that has more advancement than others there is really only one mill or all but one unit are mills. It really depends on your perspective.

 

The best way to approach this subject is for each one of us to simply be the best leaders we can by providing opportunities across all methods of scouting for the benefit of the boys. And then ignore the OFSs on this board who will undoubtedly tell you how you are doing it wrong and that you must do things as they have in their 80 years of scouting.

[BadenP 93]

An Eagle mill is not a method of doing scouting, but it is a strong indicator that a troop has gotten way off the track on the methods of scouting introduced by Baden Powell. Some of the worse cases of mills I have encountered were many LDS troops and troops run by ex military drill sergeants both of whom have very different agendas from traditional scout troops.

 

To answer Posuwed's question the BSA would be better off without these rogue units because IMHO they present the scouting program in a very negative light. These troops are not boy run, and to be honest the boys have very little to no input as to the content and direction of the program. To put it plainly that is not the way BP created the program to run, and he was ex military.

[pohsuwed 19]

I would venture to bet that on this forum if a high-achieving boy-led troop where the scouts have above-average achievement they would still be called a "mill." The reason I say this is because nobody is willing to look deep enough before they accuse the unit of being a "mill." And a "mill" on this forum has no positive connotation. Some of the most enthusiastic "mostly boy-led" troops that I have known would be flushed down the toilet on this forum for over-achievement.

 

And regarding one of the original questions "What can be done to treat it?" my answer is that we all simply relax and realize that no unit is perfect, but hopefully the boys are benefiting from the program in some way. And if it so be that you feel your boys are getting more simply because you follow the methods of scouting more purely, keep it to yourself or else someone just might find some way to criticize you because you are doing better than them in some way . . . or call you a "mill" of some kind.

[WAKWIB 107]

The reason I started this thread was to see how folks might define the terms they use. And it has produced some thoughtful feed-back.

 

I first heard the terms "merit badge mill" and "Eagle mill" long ago in the dim ages when I was strongly considering a career in Youth Agency Administration (AKA-scout professional).

My first year of college I attended a school in the mid-west which was the birthplace of the American Humanics program which specialized in training for this type of work. Some of my fellow students used these terms when referring to a nearby BSA council. The council was and is quite large in terms of membership. It was my home council, so it seemed to me that this was something I should think about.

They never really laid out any details why they thought it was a "mill". Really, the simple math would suggest that a council with approx 7,000 or so scouts may yield more merit badges and Eagle ranks earned than one with, for example, 2,000. The "critics", who came from smaller councils, in my estimation at the time were haboring a bit of a complex.....maybe. Since they had never visited troops, camps etc. in the Mill Council, it might just be that they were parroting something they heard.

Seeing these terms applied to troops is something I've only encountered on these forums. Over time of the interpretations I've seen have some real merit, and some have a bit of the flavor that pohsuwed

describes. One big concern that I can see would be if a Scoutmaster, Merit Badge counselor, etc, was truly watering down requirements just to drive kids on a fast-track to Eagle.

 

 

(This message has been edited by WAKWIB)

[Knot Head 10]

I've heard our troop referred to as an "eagle factory" before. This year when a cub pack visited the boys were outside demonstrating fire starting, Dutch oven and compass skills to the cubs. The adults were in a Q&A session about annual costs, where do we camp, gear needed, etc. when one Dad asked point blank how do you respond to being called an eagle factory?.

I was glad he voiced the question. Its always good to see how others perceive you.

 

As a group we told him that we run an active calendar camping 10 months a year for 2 nights and also going to summer camp & winter camp. The boys set the calendar and we try within reason and cost to do what they want where they want. Last year it was snow skiing and white water. This year it will be rock climbing at a school with professional instructor (the adults dont know squat about climbing) and white water again. Basically scouts earn eagle because they hang around and remain active for 4 or 5 years. I think the reason they hang around is they have fun. We try to let the scouts decide as much as possible what our rules are and where we go and the adults herd the cats if they stray too far outside the lines. Basically they also like each other. Kids from band, football, choir and other outdoor activities get along pretty well together. Theyll miss when they need to if they have a game or practice but show up pretty regular in their off season.

 

If you get 4 merit badges at summer camp and 3 at winter camp for 4 years thats 30 badges. The typical eagle usually has about 25-35 MBs.

 

Do I think that some of the merit badges they get at summer camp are given away too easy? Sure, but that doesnt mean you cant reinforce those skills on regular campouts using competitions or supervising while scouts teach T21 skills to younger guys.

 

We also dont let any scout sign off T21 requirements. We do that to ensure quality and that skills are learned before they advance. I know some would say we are missing a good opportunity to be boy led in this area. We just think its important that scouts master a skill before that book is signed so only ASM or SM can sign a book. So the scouts teach the skill and send the new guy to an ASM for review before the book is signed. Likewise we will for instance review eagle required badges that are earned at summer camp. We call it the post camp scoutmaster conference and well quiz a guy on the camping MB if he earned it at summer camp. We wont take it away, but we try to make sure he knows his stuff because we think its important. Now if a kid earns something like indian lore at summer camp well just give credit and move on.

 

We dont have any 14 year old eagles but we could if a guy was really driven. Typically we get 15 year olds with 4 years of winter and summer camp that get it done and then remain semi-active, or guys that maybe issed a summer camp ot two who wait until they are 17 and a half to get going. Some just wait until they are 17 even though they earned all the required the badges 2 years prior. About 90% of our eagles go to Philmont before they earn eagle.

 

We have every year a few Life scouts that age out at Life. But thats okay, if they dont want to put forth the effort to get to eagle then were not gonna do it for them. Last Spring a mom saw me at the store and asked if I could call Bobby and get him going on his eagle project. I told her to have him call me. He never did and aged out last month. I hated to see it because he was a good kid but he just never made an effort.

 

So basically we have fun, do what the guys vote to do and the kids that continue to show up advance, if they remain active long enough they can earn eagle. That has earned us a reputation locally with some as an eagle mill or eagle factory. I just think were active and having fun and guys that stay with it earn eagle.

 

I would also add that most of these guys get lots of support at home (both time and money support) which of course will help a guy earn eagle. If mon and dad don't support a guy's interest in scouting then the eagle path is gonna be much much harder.

 

With all that said we are far from perfect and could improve in many areas.

 

 

[Scoutfish 16]

Having thought about it, I see two ways to describe an Eagle Mill.

 

1) From an old saying about being a Pervert: A pervert is only somebody who has gone "farther" than you. When you go that far, a "pervert" is still somebody who went farther than you.

 

 

Kinda like no matter how fast you drive, anybody who drives faster is an idiot! It's all relative, If you turn out 20 Eagles a year, then any troop that does 27 is a mill. Likewise, if you turn out 40 Eagle a year, a troop that turns out 50 is a mil.

 

2)I would define a mill as a troop (or pack), as one that after a Scout earns a particular badge/patch, they forget it and move on. They do not practice it, they do not live it or use the skills involved with "earning" it. It was just a chek mark on a bigger list of fish to fry. Earned today, forgotten tomorrow.

 

But if a Scout earns that badge/patch, uses the skills, lives the skills and requirements and uses them throught his scouting career and life,then it wouldn't matter to me if he has all 121 by the time he's 16 (not saying it can happen ,mind you).

 

Some peole just have a knack for motivating other people. In school, I had teachers who just made everything not only fun,but interesting too. We all excelled in those classes, But we actually truely learned that stuff too. My drama teacher was about 1 certificate from being certified crazy. But I can almost remember every single day in her class.

 

One of my math teachers wasn't even half as exciting as Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's day off ( Bueller...Bueller...Bueller..)I failed that class only to pass it next year with a teacher who liked math too much if you ask me.

 

So, there are some troops/patrols/units that may just excel because the program director Troop Leader, SPL just really connects with them.

 

The key,is just figuring out which troop you are in.