Scouting is the best progam for developing character

[Eagledad]

>>So what I'd like to ask you is to support your statement. Why do you think that Scouting is far and away better? You haven't really given a reason why you believe the way you do.

 

I feel, as others have pointed out, that Scouting doesn't have a monopoly on certain values. In fact, the very first lecture I received on integrity came from my junior high school band director, delivered to our entire band. Integrity, leadership development, teamwork, citizenship, character development (I could probably run through the entire set of aims and methods)...those kinds of things pop up all over the place. As a youth, I really appreciated the "outward boundness" of my troop's high adventure experiences because I learned that despite being a non-athletic kid, I had no physical limits that weren't imposed by my own brain. I would think a good coach would be able to foster that same thing with young athletes.

 

Thanks...

Guy

[John-in-KC]

Barry,

 

From where I sit, Scouting is the best broad-brush youth developer. To me, the question is how do we manage "ages and stages" as the young person starts finding passions and starts investing time and energy in them. Time available to a youth is finite; at some point balancing the general and the specific will become a learning experience.

 

Frankly, I'm beginning to think Venturing is a stronger opportunity, especially for HS juniors and seniors (16-18 year olds), in part because of the duality of its time committments (lower need for regular in-town meetings, more intense and in-depth experiences during time on activities and adventures.

[GKlose]

Barry -- thanks for the considered reply. I've read it about three times now, and I'll admit I'm a bit overwhelmed by it.

 

I don't want to quibble, and there are places where I could try to isolate points, but that wouldn't be fair, or entertaining, or useful. I do respect your point of view, and I'm not disagreeing with you, I think I just perhaps have a different vantage point given my choices compared to you and others.

 

But I would like to point out that "developing character" is a fairly broad notion. In various parts, you list moral and ethical decision making, think, choose and act independently, a program for developing citizens of character and leaders of integrity (and many other things) -- but I would still point out that Scouting doesn't have a monopoly on those and doesn't have a "moral high ground" in owning those values. There are certainly other values such as teamwork, leadership, discipline, integrity, commitment and others that are fostered in many other youth programs. Which of those values are more important to a developing youth? Which ones make more of a difference to a young adult going forward? I don't think there is an answer to that question.

 

And yes, maybe I came from a good band program, and your kids had an awful one, but I don't see that as germane to the argument. There are certainly Scout programs that have lost their True North, and I think we'd all agree that doesn't really reflect on the nature of the program, it reflects on the choices of those who implement it.

 

Kid sports programs are typically run by volunteers (many untrained, in my experience), and sure there are some coaches who stray from their True North. I'm thinking of a recent example from my youngest's 4th grade basketball league, where league rules specifically state "equal playing time" for all team members, while there was one coach who was concerned enough about winning a game that his best players were magically always on the floor. Seen that over and over. Bring it up to the guys that run the league, and you're seen as a whiner.

 

I also think it would be quite strange, indeed, if relatively-untrained volunteers ran a typical school band program. Some of them would probably think that the job is nothing more than asking everyone to show up, then stand in front of them to wave a baton. Single-point leadership? No way, not if it's done right. There are sections, with section leaders that have real responsibilities.

 

Citizens of character. Leaders of integrity. I'm fond of the lists that BSA periodically publishes of famous Eagles (along with some that didn't get that far). I think it goes to show something, and is deserving of respect.

 

But I'd have to play Devil's Advocate here too. How many famous non-Scouts are there? How many were merely members of Skull and Bones, or just high school athletes, or maybe just an accomplished musician as a youth? How many of our skilled politicians were nothing more than debate club geeks?

 

I'm just saying I can't separate it all out, and perhaps give weight to one over the other. Looking back, I had a great experience as a Scout, as a musician and as a student-scholar (and I still draw on all three). I don't think there was any one of those things that was more important than the other, and maybe they were great experiences because I was the kind of "citizen of character" that tends to have fulfilling experiences.

 

Scouting *is* important to me, or else I wouldn't be here right now, and be associated with a unit and a district. I've helped guide my kids, and I am proud of them for pursuing their interests in Scouting, athletics, music, and video game playing .

 

Not that I think this topic is anywhere close to being a dead horse, but I'll agree to stop flogging it.

 

Guy

 

[GKlose]

Sidebar here: John, interesting point. I'm starting to half-think about the topic "if I were to develop a Venturing Crew, what would I do?" while in the past, I've also contemplated starting a community band. Then last week, those topics collided together with me. I suddenly realized there is no reason why a youth-oriented community band couldn't be organized as a Crew.

 

(the epiphany came when I realized that when I was at the '73 National Jamboree, I saw a music group perform made up of all scouts -- at least I don't think they were an explorer post -- and I remember thinking "wow, I wish I could be in a group like that")

 

I have a couple of years to think it over, before my young Scouts will start entering their Venturing-eligible ages, but offhand I don't see a reason why it wouldn't work. It might even be kind of fun, even with trying to organize an interesting outdoor program around a performing arts group. And no, American Pie "Band Camp" had nothing to do with my idea .

 

Guy

[OldGreyEagle]

I think Boy Scouts is the broadest youth program teaching the values that have been enumerated. Yes, a band may provide training in integrity, discipline, and teamwork. A Sports team may endow the youth in a background of physical activity. But the point may be moot if I am devoid of musical or athletic talent. In Boy Scouts a boy may develop talents as he matures, talents not present upon joining. The BSA joining requirements are mighty broad, not nearly as demanding as being a starter on a traveling Soccer Club Team or Diving Club

[Eagledad]

>>but I would still point out that Scouting doesn't have a monopoly on those and doesn't have a "moral high ground" in owning those values.

[John-in-KC]

Guy,

 

There is nothing in any Venturing program literature which says a Crew has to have an outdoors component.

 

The high adventure for a Crew-based band might well be a springtime trip to a Festival to compete in band. Our HS Symphonic Band did that a couple years ago; the good side-bar was they also had time to ski ... did I mention this Festival was in Breckinridge?

[Beavah]

Yah, GKlose, no reason that it needs to be an outdoors program, eh? Your Venturing program can just be a community band!

 

I reckon Eagledad's point about da mission is a good one, eh? I think that the biggest thing, though, is the nature of youth choices. A soccer player has choices to run this way or that, pass or keep the ball. A band member has some opportunities for personal expression in how they play their instrument, or the parts of marching that get improvisational. Beyond that, most of the decision making is done by the coach or director, eh? The teamwork is limited to doing one part of a linked skill and keepin' the timing right. In some sports like swimming or track, the "teamwork" is really just practicing side by side and encouraging each other.

 

The choices that scouts have to make are oceans wider and deeper than those programs, eh? And I think it's through choices, not lectures, not instruction, that real teamwork and real skill and real character are decided and developed. Scouts plan activities and events from scratch. They lead people in ambiguous, complex environments not on a well-laid out field with highly structured rules and referees. They have to deal with people with a wide range of skills, not just those selected for varsity. And they have to develop a wide range of skills to proficiency - first aid, navigation, fitness, camping, cooking, communication, and on and on.

 

Those differences between scoutin' and sports/band/other school extracurricular activity are huge.

 

Beavah

 

[GKlose]

Oh, I know that an outdoor program isn't necessary for Venturing. I was just having fun contemplating the idea of using the structure of a Venturing Crew to organize a community band, and at the same time add an outdoor program to it for a fun aspect. Like John's Breckenridge example. Or, "hey, not only do we play concerts in the summer, but we also go canoeing" and stuff like that.

 

--

 

Beav', I think you are underestimating the complexity of what goes on with a young musician and the groups that he or she performs with, and the values it teaches and develops. You've taken a somewhat simplistic approach in what you've listed.

[ozemu]

I'm no musician. I understand though that music is about emotiona and it is not always about falling in and out of love at age 12. Emotion is driven by how we think about events and the value we place on both the event and our response. There is excellant music about war, murder, injustice, liberty, rape, human rights, political (ir)responsibility etc. Music is fundamentally linked to values, ethics and morals.

 

Choise - dunno. Will take GKlose's word on it.

 

Teamwork; I can see where a band may have to understand the combined emotion of a peice. Again - driven by values that is a group consesnus on an issue of importance.

 

Broadness - I can see all the above in a good band with a dedicated and inspiring band leader. I can see the same in most Scouting units led by inexperienced and breifly trained people.

 

Music connects with most young people. Scouting does not. Scouting has a direction world wide. Music is a bit like the internet with slightly more control. Rather than argue the differences perhaps we could combine the strengths?

 

 

[GKlose]

Barry, it's not about comparing mission statements and doing a "mine is bigger" check

 

There isn't a single "varsity sports" consortium, or "youth music" set of guidelines that would provide the sort of thing you're looking for. I could maybe dig out a mission statement for Little League, or Pop Warner, or maybe for Interlochen Arts Academy, but I don't necessarily think it would prove anything. But having a mission statement, or not having one, doesn't really say anything about the quality of a youth program or what it teaches.

 

My issue with the "moral high ground" statement is this: I don't think a "but my program teaches those values so much better" statement means that a program has exclusive ownership for teaching those values.

 

I thought we were discussing values -- you'd narrowed it a little, I think, to the idea of values for developing character. I tried pointing out that is a very broad notion. We can narrow the definition to something that would absolutely prove your point, but I've told you I do understand where you're coming from and I respect your viewpoint. I've tried, perhaps unsuccessfully, to explain that I don't think it is quite so clearcut. I have a different vantage point than you.

 

I'm not trying to belittle what the Scouting program is, or isn't. I've said that it is very important to me, or else I wouldn't be right here, right now.

 

On the other hand I really wish you, and Beav', and OGE, wouldn't take your own simplistic view of other youth programs and then use that to support an argument of "my program teaches those values so much better than ...".

 

And I'm sorry -- I really didn't want to flog the dying horse. But if you'd like to talk, point by point, about various values and methods how they are taught, I might perhaps be able to add something intelligent from my point of view.

 

An example: take leadership. SPL/PL and patrol members are not unlike the way some marching bands are organized with drum majors and section leaders and sections. Drum majors can and do go to special camps to learn their unique sets of skills, they are the public-facing front of the group. Section leaders have real responsibility within the units (do you want them listed?). After all, marching bands are descended from military units, right?

 

Of course, there's no TLT (that I know of) that the National Marching Band Society (if there is one) trots out for training section leaders in marching bands. From what I've heard about TLT, though, that might be a good thing :-). So maybe that's passed down by tradition, folklore and tribal knowledge.

 

But lack of a standardized leadership development curriculum doesn't mean that leadership development in those units is either 1) an invalid process or 2) less effective at fostering a sense of leadership in a youth member than some other program.

 

The most incredible display of Esprit d'Corps I've ever seen was at a rehearsal of the OSU marching band. Any unit, scouting, military, varsity team, band or otherwise, would probably see a display like that and have chills running down their spine.

 

Guy

[John-in-KC]

Guy,

 

Saturday night last, I was at table with about half of "Three Point Play", the women's basketball pep band at the University of Missouri.

 

Every young man at the table was an Eagle Scout. Every one of them had been to Philmont.

 

There's room for both, but I submit pedantic Scoutmasters "be here or be gone" don't have the strength of program in their Troops that voluntary attendance is all that's needed.

 

If a Scoutmaster doesn't understand that High School students have a fair bit on their table, even before we talk debate/band/athletics and clubs, then he's not our Barry, and he needs a serious reality check.

 

A good friend, a SM in another Troop, had his son in the same HS class as EagleSon. We saw each other at District events as well as at school events. At that point, his SM conferences with teens arriving at adulthood were often about managing tough choices. He happened to believe "a little give goes a long way."

[Beavah]

Section leaders have real responsibility within the units (do you want them listed?).

 

Yah, sure.

 

But I think a more import thing is to imagine yourself followin' a lad around who is involved in each program, and lookin' at the skills, talents, and choices that come into play.

 

The most incredible display of Esprit d'Corps I've ever seen was at a rehearsal of the OSU marching band. Any unit, scouting, military, varsity team, band or otherwise, would probably see a display like that and have chills running down their spine.

 

Yah, I'm sure. It's just that esprit de corps is not da same thing as character, eh? The easiest way to achieve spirit is to narrow the task and up the volume, so to speak. When the task is very narrow, the differences between people are very small, and there's a single, externally imposed vision. Win the game. Play the song. People tell yeh what to cheer for, and you cheer. All kinds of spirit in a college football stadium, eh! Lots of drunken foolishness too.

 

Been involved in some music, lots of theater, and all kinds of other organizations over the years. Yah, there's all kinds of things each one teaches. Yah, a really strong character-filled adult leader can instill some sense of values and character in each of 'em, even if only by example. They're all valuable.

 

But they don't hold a candle to Scoutin'.

 

I submit pedantic Scoutmasters "be here or be gone" don't have the strength of program in their Troops

 

Would yeh say the same thing about those band directors and sports coaches? Or that high school chemistry teacher?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagledad]

>>Barry, it's not about comparing mission statements and doing a "mine is bigger" check>The most incredible display of Esprit d'Corps I've ever seen was at a rehearsal of the OSU marching band. Any unit, scouting, military, varsity team, band or otherwise, would probably see a display like that and have chills running down their spine.

[GKlose]

Sorry -- I should have been more specific. There are at least two OSU's, and I was talking about one of the others: Ohio State.