Margaret said "I will not be so foolish again"

[John-in-KC 311]

I'm as guilty as anybody here. I look at the post and start writing. I don't check myself before I hit the send button, and my comments appear trite, snide, sarcastic, or outright rude.

 

I'm trying now to look at the info the poster gives us... particularly forum registration date and number of posts written. It's in the upper left corner. We have a lot of institutional memory here, and we have lots of ability to interpret various BSA publications.

 

Sometimes, though... we open our mouths and put our feet in. We do this with folks who are new to the Forum, and perhaps new to Scouting.

 

We've probably lost Margaret forever here ... hopefully we didn't lose her as a potential unit serving Scouter wherever she lives in Colorado. Why? The language of our posts!

 

We don't need to give a universal prescriptive of "take training." We can and should encourage training whenever appropriate. We don't need to start an expert level debate. We need to answer questions

 

Beavah said it in a different thread... we need to be helpful, friendly and courteous, especially when we help someone new. If we need to tell Mom "your son should ask the SPL or the Librarian, and not get the answer direct from you", then we need to say that and explain Why. At the same time, we need to try and answer her question, so she has an idea of "what right looks like."

 

My thoughts.

 

YIS John

[Gunny2862 11]

It also tends to squash discussion/learning from the very people who need it most - the new Scouter.

 

13 months of Career Scouting, no time as a youth. 4 as ASM, 9 as SM and I've been lurking rather than posting recently because it feels like SOME of my fellow Scouters would rather SPORT than be helpful.

It's not much Sport when you smack down a newbie though (it should seem to easy)- how about saving that for the experts? And assume that newer Scouters actually want to know and either don't have or don't know about the source you are going to cheerfully inform them about?

 

I may have missed John's posts in which he claims he may have been less than well-behaved but I've never read him that way.

[fgoodwin 23]

John, I agree with you, that I need to be more Scout-like in my responses. An old saying goes something like "there's nothing so difficult to remember as what it was like not to know".

 

Sure, we could have had a one-post response that gave her a direct answer to her question -- but w/o mention of the Insignia Guide, she (or the next person) would be back asking yet another question that could be answered by reference to that document (or some other relevant BSA publication).

 

Personally, I much prefer an answer that contains citations to an authoritative source -- otherwise I can't tell fact from opinion (informed or not). How much harder will it be for a newbie to make that distinction?

 

I liken this to NLE -- the purpose of that course isn't to answer all your questions; its to give you the tools so you know where to look. I believe the best answers are the same way -- yes, answer the question, but also give the person asking sufficient info so he or she will know where to look the next time.

 

And in the particular case of Boy Scouts, I know I went through a difficult time weaning myself away from guiding my son's every move after he crossed over -- I suspect many of us did the same. At some point, Margaret and all other new Boy Scout parents will have to learn that same painful lesson.

 

Sparing her that info won't make the separation any easier for her, but I certainly could've chosen kinder words for saying so.

[fgoodwin 23]

And there was one question begging to be asked that no one mentioned: why is Margaret's son holding down two PORs at the same time?

 

I guess there's nothing prohibiting that in the BSHB, but ISTM that you can't do justice to either POR if you hold down more than one simultaneously.

 

I suppose its a good thing no one asked . . .

[evmori 11]

And there was one question begging to be asked that no one mentioned: why is Margaret's son holding down two PORs at the same time?

 

Who cares. The question & subject of the thread wasn't why is he holding down two POR's but can he wear both patches.

 

We all tend to want to give too much advise at times. I'm just as bad as everyone else! We want to be helpful and we end up starting debates & picking nits! Sometimes we just need to give the simple answer & get out of the way!

 

I'm off nit hunting!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Gunny2862 11]

As to two POR's at one time - I don't know about Margaret's issue but I also have an APL who is a DC also.

In his case, his Father is the CM and his littlest brother is a Webelos I.

He does a great job in both positions and like most adults is another example of "if you want something done find the busy person and ask them."

He would have been there helping anyway and just chose to make it official.

[CA_Scouter 11]

...and I've been lurking rather than posting recently...

 

Yea, right on Gunny. Me too. I come here for learned responses from fellow scouters, not for criticism and admonishments. Things changed a few months back and there is a lot less courteous and kind around here. Granted there are only a few that cause this problem, but it just goes to show how a select few can negatively impact the entire space.

 

Kinda sad. This used to be a really good resource, now I find myself looking elsewhere.

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

I wonder what might have happened if a group of Scouter's were hanging out at a Roundtable and someone came along and asked a question to the group?

The guys I tend to "Hang out" with do tend to know each other and we do tend to tease each other. All in good fun.

I kinda expect the reply given in that situation would be given in a different way than if the same question was asked by the same person at a training.

I'm 100% for this being a great place as a resource, but I think if it were to become just a resource place? All the replies would end up being links to where to find the book answer on the BSA web site.

I have to admit that when I read Margaret's question I seen it as a very simple question.

I failed to see it as having anything to do with any sort of bigger picture (Youth led or whatever).

We (Scouter's) do at times do fail to remember that not everyone is a Scouter.

A few years back a First Class Twit from our Council took a small group of boys away for a weekend by himself. While they were away he did some stupid ceremony which involved tyeing the boys to trees and scratching the letter T on their foreheads.

He ended up serving time in the county jail.

But I was surprised at the number of Scouter's who wanted to blame the parents!!

They said that the parents ought not to have allowed the Scouts to go when there wasn't two deep leadership.

I would hope that every Scouter knows all about two deep leadership, but the truth is not every parent does.

I'll bet before this happened the parents seen this twit as being a nice guy who was willing to give up his time to work with their kids.

Eamonn.

 

[John-in-KC 311]

E,

 

I absolutely agree we should have fun here. I've been in the song thread that was once the Eagle and faith thread...

 

I also think we need to be thoughtful when new folks approach us, just as we would at a live RT.

 

In fact, in my District, a lot of the "fun" happens when the staff goes to a local restaurant after RT to come down off the experience.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I think it's hard, eh? Forums attract all kinds of folks, newbies through old timers. And they develop "personalities" based on their moderators and frequent contributors, eh?

 

It can be tough tryin' to gauge responses to folks. Like John, I know I've blown it on more than a few occasions. And I reckon we all tend to read into what people are typin' through the lenses of our own experience. Members who have recently seen a twit harangue a lad at a BOR will view a question about a BOR differently than members who recently saw da troop bully awarded Eagle. It's easy to forget that da poster may be comin' from a different place.

 

I've had similar concerns from time to time, and would suggest the followin'...

 

* We all try to avoid at least the more pointed and "flaming" criticism out the chute. "Fire da SM", "quit the troop", "you're not doing Scouting", "go take training you bum", etc. probably aren't all that productive, eh?

 

* We try to move the expert / detail / nitpicky discussion or debate to a new thread when it comes up. Lots of times, a simple question can generate different ideas and then quite a long run, eh? Like askin' about God at a BOR . Spinning off a new thread for the debate part just seems like it'd be nicer.

 

At the same time, I think we've all got to admit that we're each gonna blow it sometimes, eh? I remember jokin' about the Monster in the camp lake one time and reducin' a new lad (who I wasn't aware was even payin' attention!) to tears before his swim check. Not his fault for havin' a thin skin, not really my fault for not bein' alert to a kid listenin' in (we weren't even at the waterfront). But a thicker skin and my bein' more alert both would have been good things. Plus a bit of humor!

 

I figure those are good things to try for, too. Have a thick skin, let folks debate and critique our ideas without makin' it personal. Be alert, change our tone dependin' on who we're addressin' and what they need. And laugh. Don't take any of this stuff too seriously, eh? It's a fun kids' program, nuthin' more or less.

 

Beavah

 

[OldGrayOwl 10]

We ALL take ourselves way to seriously at times.

 

 

 

 

 

Just remember...

 

 

 

 

 

GIVE a man a fish

 

 

 

 

 

AND you feed him for a day

 

 

 

 

 

TEACH a man to fish

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

AND he's gone all day!!!!

 

 

(edited for content)(This message has been edited by OldGrayOwl)

[Eamonn 61]

At times it seems to me, that we (Well me anyway!!)Do tend to read more into something than is really there.

Then at times I fail to notice what the real question is.

99.9% of the time in the "Real World" I tend to shoot from the hip without thinking of what the "Bigger Picutre" might be.

If I seen a Lad who I didn't know wearing a couple of patches that were out of place. I think I might smile and take plenty of no notice.

If I knew him or her, I think I might have a very friendly word in their ear and let them know.

I'm almost sure that the thought that I was in some way taking away from youth leadership or I was in some way doing real harm by telling them would never cross my mind. I'm sure I'd just open my big mouth and tell them.

If this in some way makes me less of a leader? So be it.

Eamonn

[packsaddle 753]

When I read (past tense) the parent thread I noted that Margaret allowed a significant time to elapse between one response and her reply. Perhaps she will hang on and after a similar time, return.

But, aside from that, I agree with Beavah. He said it as well as I could hope for.

Really, all this over a patch question? OGE had the answer I was going to suggest: velcro. We didn't fund the space program for nothing...or was that teflon?

[Ohio_Scouter 10]

Correction, pack, (I know you can take it because of your thick skin), but giving credit where credit is due, Velcro was Ed's solution.

[packsaddle 753]

Holy Toledo! You're right! And I apologize to Ed...my bad. That was indeed your solution, not OGE's, and I wholeheartedly agree with it. Thanks, Ohio_Scouter for noting that - "I get by with a little help from my friends."

Now...I'm going to make an appointment for some new glasses....