Insurance fixation

[Oak Tree]

There are a couple threads going on right now that have morphed into discussions about insurance.

 

I guess we're just a litigious society. But boy, the topic comes up a lot more here than in real life. My observation that any thread can turn this way still holds, but I should definitely have given it a different name, analogous as it is to Godwin's law. Not sure I can give credit to jeff, though.

 

Just for fun, I looked back over some postings from the past year. Since a dutch oven conversation can turn to liability, I figure pretty much anything can. But there are also a number of threads that start right out that way.

 

There are 278 separate forum posts in the last year that include the word insurance.

 

Question: what size [dutch oven] should i get?

Leads to: Let a Cub turn around with a flaming marshmallow and leave a scar on another cubs face and see what happens to your BSA Insurance.

 

Question: Any suggestions from the expericenced Commissioners [about how to deal with a non-responsive unit]?

Leads to: So the sage advice here is that I let a unit that is in trouble do things that continue to put the unit and the CO at risk without saying anything?

 

Question: Id appreciate any advice [on how to deal with a parent who shows up reeking of alcohol].

Leads to: As a Registered BSA Leader, should anything happen to a child, (He stumbles and falls on a child), you would not be protected by the BSA insurance,

 

Question: Why should we use tour permits?

Leads to: I am sure we were told at Basic Scout Leader Training and at Woodbadge that you must file a tour permit to be covered by BSA insurance. We were further told that if you stray from anything written in the Guide to Safe Scouting, you would not be covered if anything bad happens.

 

Question: Should I have offered the same invitation to the boys that didn't show up that was offered to the ones that did?

Leads to: Something bad happens during an activity where a tour permit is required and you don't have one, you could find yourself all alone.

 

Starting question: I'm worried I'll get sued sooner or later.

 

Question: Can someone tell me if I am understanding the rules regarding horsemanship activites with Cubs?

Leads to: This is what I was trying to convey to CM with this whole issue that you can't do said activity if you do not follow guidelines set forth by BSA, and that he would be the one liable.

 

Starting question: I know that the Young Eagles have done some things together with scouting groups in the past. I have heard that the paperwork/liability aspect is enormous and complicated.

 

Starting question: A question arose from a new leader of this crew about being covered with BSA liability insurance. He wanted to know where it said that as a registered BSA leader he was covered by this insurance.

 

Starting question: 1. A Baloo trained person is required to attend Pack camp outs. Pack submits a Tour Permit without the required Baloo person. The Council incorrectly issues the Permit. Something "bad" happens on the trip.

The Tour Permit can be "retroactively denied" by the council and then the BSA insurance would NOT be in effect.

 

Starting point: spreadin' a lot of liability fear does real damage

Leads to: Are you saying that the BSA lawyers are going to back me, even though the unit signed a permit that said they cannot caravan?

 

Starting question: What do you do if your BALOO trained leader is ill?

Leads to: If there is no BALOO trained person at the event for the duration of the event it can't occur or it has to end. The liability issues would then fall on the members of the unit if something occured.

 

Question: What should I do with a dad who wont supply his drivers license number for the tour permit?

Leads to: If the Committee Member and Tour Leader's signatures at the bottom of the form attest that all the drivers are legally licensed and insured automobile operators, then the Committee Member and Tour Leader are liable.

 

I suspect that if I went back year after year, I'd find the same thing.

 

I looked for a couple:

 

From February 2006 (the thread that first got Beavah to comment on the topic):

The accident insurance and liability insurance covering the pack and your CO could be void if the pack knowingly violates the GTSS age appropriate guidelines.

 

From January 2002:

I thought tour permits were only needed for activities where auto-transportation is involved. Its part of the insurance release, isnt it?

 

I feel safe saying that part of this concern could be alleviated through clearer documentation.

 

It just strikes me as odd about how much we focus on this issue. Has anyone here actually been sued as a Scout leader?

 

 

[dan]

I have not been sued.

I really think everyone that brings up the insurance issue is just trying to help out another leader and most of what is posted is what they have heard. All of the wonderful myths in scouting. Like the Adult that got kicked out of scouting because he wore camo. It must be true it is on a website.

Which is why I take most of what I hear with a grain of salt and want to know where I can find the info in an official BSA document.

[Beavah]

Holy Smoke! I never even thought to check da Dutch Oven thread for the Halloween Reappearance of... The Liability Boogeyman!

 

Aieeeeeee!!!!

 

I can honestly say this doesn't come up in our area. I take that back... there was one dingbat DE who made a comment like that once. I think he was fired a month or two later and is now sellin' insurance . Seriously, though, the Liability Boogeyman is not in one single piece of BSA literature. It's not in any training syllabus (your trainers do follow da syllabus, don't they?). It's not even in any of da cool books of Ghost Stories our council scout shop sells!

 

Talk about Americans and our Culture of Fear, eh?

 

Folks, be reasonable out there and have fun teaching the kids. There are no monsters in the closet. If you're not afraid of having your kid's friends over in your back yard to play (without signed permission slips and copies of health forms!), or driving the soccer carpool (without doing license checks on the other drivers and annual vehicle inspections), then don't be afraid of anything in Scouting.

 

There is no such thing as the Boogeyman.

 

Beavah

[FScouter]

Its part of the boogeyman syndrome. I don't know anything about whatever it is, but by God its agonna get you. You never know, be prepared and all that rot.

 

Then there's the other extreme where the self-proclaimed stuffed shirt insurance and legal expert declares there's no problem letting the Cub Scouts play russian roulette with a .357 mag in the den leader's back yard; you're covered as long as they're wearing the uniform.

[Gold Winger]

Many things aren't in the training syllabi.

 

What I do know is that I found two council websites that said that if you take your Scouts on an unapproved activity and something bad happens, you may not be covered. Not "will not" but "may not".

 

Bevah may have his opinion about "intentional" but the reality is that "intentional" means whatever who is writing the rules says it means.

 

Notice that the council websites didn't say that you have to have a tour permit or that you have to wear your uniform which are the big myths.

 

By telling everyone Bevah's version of wisdom that "BSA coverage is always there" can lead people into a disaster. In fact, in most jurisdictions letting kids play with a loaded .357 mag is legal so, according to Bevah, you can let them play with it and still be protected by BSA.

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Why do we worry so much about it? Because we live in a society which has more lawyers than doctors (according to my doctor).

 

People sue because their coffee was too hot. People sue because a tree drops leaves in the neighbors yard (it happened in my neighborhood). People sue because their child gets the sniffles.

 

Even if a suit is thrown out, it can still cost you. You have to pay a lawyer, take time off work, get your name in the paper, etc..

 

The suing side doesn't get anything but the scummy lawyer still makes out. Sure he doesn't get paid unless you win but he can still bill you for expenses. So his secretary gets paid, his phone bill gets paid, and his rent gets paid. Not a bad situation.

 

So the judge says that the other guy has to pay your bills. Great, now he gets punished because his scummy lawyer talked him into suing you and now both scummy lawyers make out and then meet at the corner bar to talk about how great America is.

 

I'll just follow the safety rules. If the rules say that Cubs can play with fire, that's okay. If they say Boy Scouts can't bungee jump, that's okay too.

 

For the record, camouflage and ALICE belts have nothing to do with safety.

[LongHaul]

I never got sued but there is a Scoutmaster on the south side of CAC that had a scout get killed on a troop ski outing. The lawyers went over every inch of this guys training, asked for copies of the YP video he was trained under, wanted copies of tour permits and statements as to how the boys were prepared for the event. They wanted everything they could think of. It's not a matter of the BSA insurance won't pay it's a matter of how liable are they. Level of Liability can be a costly thing while you are trying to get yours lowered.

LongHaul

[Slouchhat]

Hello,

for some reason many people can't accept that life is not a pony ranch and that in the scouts, accidents can happen.

Unfortunately, people sue over the most ridiculous things and their lawyers don't tell them "Man, this is BS, go get a life and leave your neighbour alone." because they make a fortune accepting the most stupid case.

 

But let's face facts: if we get too fixated on liability and insurance there won't be any activity anymore.

 

best regards,

Volker

[Beavah]

The lawyers went over every inch of this guys training, asked for copies of the YP video he was trained under, wanted copies of tour permits and statements as to how the boys were prepared for the event. They wanted everything they could think of.

 

Yah, of course! Those are billable hours, eh?

 

And da standard of care is industry norm, so they want to compare what da troop was doin' with the industry norm. Need that just to prove negligence, eh? So it goes to whether or not to settle for a nuisance payment.

 

Beavah

[packsaddle]

Hey, let's face it...having one foot in the grave gives us the freedom not to worry about it. Don't worry, be happy!

[highcountry]

99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name

[LongHaul]

Ya Beavah but I thought that the BSA insurance covers you no matter what you do as long as you don't commit a crime. Why is this guy loosing time at work, having to hire a personal lawyer to deal with BSA layers that are tying to shift blame. Possibly to the CO and not the SM but can this guy really take that on faith? I had auto insurance for 20 years with the same company then I got rear ended and was injured. My insurance would not pay my medical bills, I had to sue and ended up with less than lost wages and medical bills. BSA's insurance isn't like that?

 LongHaul

[Gold Winger]

"Ya Beavah but I thought that the BSA insurance covers you no matter what you do as long as you don't commit a crime."

 

That's what Beavah claims but that's not what BSA says. As many here will tell you, only go by what BSA says.

 

Long ago I umpired youth baseball and softball. My organization gave me $1 million in insurance as part of my membership. I had my own policy for an additional $2 million. The organizations lawyers said that the insurance would cover us as long as we followed the rules of baseball and the league in question.

 

There was an umpire in my organization who allowed a girl to while wearing earrings. A clear violation of the rules. She wound up having the earring ripped out of her ear suffering a "disfiguring injury." Of course a suit was filed. The umpire knew that she was wearing earrings so the insurance company said, "have a good day." Fortunately for him, he didn't have any assets that could be touched but he was still out lawyer fees which wasn't small change. His umpiring also ended at that point.

 

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

So, it is stories like that told by Long Haul and Gold Winger that is the reason for Insurance Fixation. Should concern for it control our lives, no, but then again, its nothing to laugh at and ignore either

[Gold Winger]

It's all because of the lawyers.